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Is the Voice of the Masters...

 
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Prover of Life
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Is the Voice of the Masters... Reply with quote

.... controlled by croyel?

In Runes, he has a "tic" on his left eye and repels Stave w/o touching him.

In Revenant, Jeremiah has a left eye "tic" and repels Linden w/o touching her.

The Master also seems to have attained a higher status than Firstmark in previous novels.

Just wondering.

{corrected name to croyel}
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite observant...and entirely plausible.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he was, then does that mean that the masters are okay with it? How could it hide from their health sense?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah this seems unlikely because of the health sense. Does Kevin's Dirt affect the Haruchai?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They say their health sense is not impaired by the dirt if I recall correctly.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Health sense [which is not blocked for the Har., as said above] is a problem, but isn't the biggest problem. Mind-speech is. No way is the voice possessed/controlled by a croyel without all of the Har. knowing about it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremiah was controlled by a croyel without the Haruchai knowing about it ...

Whatever kind of glamour disguised Roger and Jeremiah seems to work against even the Haruchai. Only the Insequent seemed to be able to penetrate it. And even then, it's unclear if they saw through it or merely knew about it.

That being said, there would have to be some compelling reason why a croyel-ridden Haruchai master and the Mahdoubt could live in the same Revelstone for so many years. It's plausible. But it requires the presence of some factor as yet unknown that would explain it.

So I say, good catch, Prover of Life.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Jeremiah was controlled by a croyel without the Haruchai knowing about it ...

Jerry isn't mind-linked with the Har. We know that castings of illusions can fool Har senses, [especially Elo-cast ones]...but the Voice and all Har. share thoughts...it seems unlikely to me that a croyel could control and hide given that. And, to me, it violates the entire essence of what the Har. mean [on the whole, as a theme/presence in the whole story.]
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point about the internal voice thingie. I totally forgot about that.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is a good point.

Then again, didn't Nom learn Haruchai mind speech from a Raver?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WF, I would not say "learn" so much as acquire the ability via rending and consuming the Raver. Whether there is a difference or this is just semantics, I am not sure.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for all the comments.

I've just gotten to FR in a "mining mode" of the LC. Not really sure if it's just a co-incidence or red herring.

The Insequent generally do not interfere with events - if I remember correctly. After all, the Mahdoubt was possibly waiting for Linden to arrive, having "seen her" through Time travel. In such a case, any peculiarities with croyel manipulation would be overlooked.

As far as mind speech - Brinn & company were also unable to breach the glamour upon Kasreyn either.

It just now seems to me a possible explanation for the overly arrogant/powerful Voice of the Masters.

Time will tell - it always does. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can be sure that any croyel who controlled a Master would be able to access all his powers, including mind speech.

So can we be sure that an illusory image that includes all the normal senses could not also include the Haruchai senses as well? Might not it be able to communicate mind to mind in a way that the other Masters could not detect the illusion?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The croyel was able to hide from the Haruchai, but only by closing Covenant and Jeremiah off completely. Which was plausible to the Haruchai because they had never been able to "see" Covenant in the first place.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not convinced..
It is definately an interesting idea, but I don't see it being a realistic option.

The Haruchai would knowingly have to enter into an agreement with the Croyel, and would not be able to be surprised or taken over by one..

Furthermore any Haruchai would see the Croyel as an enemy to the land..
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