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Cail
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarathustra wrote: | | If you're going to let some interest groups have influence and access, you can't bar others. |
Which was at the crux of the Citizen's United decision.
I'm no fan of the amount of money that goes into lobbying, whether it's corporate, union, or interest group. It's influence peddling, and the group with the most money has the most influence. But people have the right to petition their government to address their grievances, and they don't lose that right when they form into groups.
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Hashi Lebwohl
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I specifically target lobbying of politicians by corporations--corporations are NOT people, regardless of anyone's opinion, and therefore do NOT get a say in the laws of the nation. Corporations are what they are and exist only to serve themselves; therefore, any legislation they support will serve only them in the long run.
Unlimited money to politicians in a democratic society takes control of that society out of the hands of citizens and puts it into the hands of corporations.
Sadly, I cannot convince you of the dangers of corporatocracy. All I can do is warn against it.
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Cail
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | I specifically target lobbying of politicians by corporations--corporations are NOT people, regardless of anyone's opinion, and therefore do NOT get a say in the laws of the nation. Corporations are what they are and exist only to serve themselves; therefore, any legislation they support will serve only them in the long run.
Unlimited money to politicians in a democratic society takes control of that society out of the hands of citizens and puts it into the hands of corporations.
Sadly, I cannot convince you of the dangers of corporatocracy. All I can do is warn against it. |
Here's the problem. Let's say we remove all corporate money from politics, but the AFL/CIO still can, as can The Sierra Club. So now you've got one side of a relationship (workers and environmentalists) who can influence policy, and the other side who can't.
Care to guess how that turns out?
If you're going to remove lobbying, you have to remove it all. Getting only the corporate money out is no different than only removing part of a tumor.
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Hashi Lebwohl
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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I can live with that. I would be more than happy to end all group-based lobbying of politicians, even if the group supports hugs for kittens.
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| Don Exnihilote wrote: | | Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken. |
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Cail
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | | I can live with that. I would be more than happy to end all group-based lobbying of politicians, even if the group supports hugs for kittens. |
I'd sign on for that, but you'd never get it past SCOTUS.
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"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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Zarathustra
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | | I specifically target lobbying of politicians by corporations--corporations are NOT people, regardless of anyone's opinion, and therefore do NOT get a say in the laws of the nation. |
I know you and Cail have already reached an agreement, but I'd like to point out that unions and nonprofit groups aren't people, either. (Actually, ALEC is a nonprofit group, not a corporation.) And they have a lot of money to buy influence. I realize that corporations have the limited liability thing going on, but that doesn't make them different in this context, namely, in how they influence government and write legislation to benefit a select group over and above everyone else.
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Cail
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarathustra wrote: | | Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | | I specifically target lobbying of politicians by corporations--corporations are NOT people, regardless of anyone's opinion, and therefore do NOT get a say in the laws of the nation. |
I know you and Cail have already reached an agreement, but I'd like to point out that unions and nonprofit groups aren't people, either. (Actually, ALEC is a nonprofit group, not a corporation.) And they have a lot of money to buy influence. I realize that corporations have the limited liability thing going on, but that doesn't make them different in this context, namely, in how they influence government and write legislation to benefit a select group over and above everyone else. |
Well, not so much of an agreement as that I'm just tired of going over this again and again.
Corporations aren't people. Neither are unions. Neither are nonprofits. People have rights. People don't lose their rights when they join a group. Any group that has any sort of government-defined legal structure can have limitations set on what they do. There are currently contribution limitations imposed on certain types of these groups. It would not be out of line (I think) to prohibit donations from any of these groups as a matter of their legal structure. It would be (I think) completely out of line to only prohibit donations from one type of group.
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"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Unfortunately, freedom allows sh*theads to get away with stuff. You always know the mark of a coward. A coward hides behind freedom. A brave person stands in front of freedom and defends it for others." - Henry Rollins
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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The thing is not to prevent lobbying, (because it's utterly fair that anybody should be able to ask for things or give their opinion on something), but to remove all money for the process.
If you want to lobby for something, you get to stand up in front of the decision-makers and present your case. If you convince them, good for you. If you don't, too bad I guess.
I don't care if a group gets together to say, "we shouldn't do X." No problem. It's when they say, "if we don't do X, then we'll give you Y & Z" that I have problems. Because it makes it all about self-interest, and not the actual issue/problem/whatever.
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wayfriend
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarathustra wrote: | | wayfriend wrote: | Notice that Zarathustra didn't claim that was the same as ALEC. Because it's not.
He came up with 5 examples, going back to 2007, against an organization that brags it writes a thousand laws a year for legislators. So by scale it's different. I keep pointing that out.
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I don't see why that's relevant. |
It's surprising to me that you, and others, don't think it's relevant.
It's the difference between having sex and opening a bordello.
It's the difference between having a gun and hiring an army.
It's like if I say, guess what they just found out that Obama sold 400 tons of marijuana out of the back of the white house, and you say, so what, everyone smokes weed.
Scale matters. Because scale makes things possible that otherwise aren't. Sometimes scale doesn't just mean "doing the same thing but more often", but means "able to do things you otherwise could not do".
| Cail wrote: | Here's the problem. Let's say we remove all corporate money from politics, but the AFL/CIO still can, as can The Sierra Club. So now you've got one side of a relationship (workers and environmentalists) who can influence policy, and the other side who can't.
Care to guess how that turns out? |
I'm not noticing that the way it is now has turned out well. Are you advocating for the status quo?
BTW, the problem is not who has access, it's the disproprotions of the access.
No organization funded by individual contributions can EVER EVER EVER compete with a corporation that makes billions of dollars of profit a year.
Loudest voice wins.
| Cail wrote: | | People don't lose their rights when they join a group. |
Does it help anyone to keep groundhogdaying this one? A corporation is not a group of people. The laws of corporation go out of their way to make that point, because the goal of corporations is to have assets (like money) that doesn't belong to people.
| Avatar wrote: | | The thing is not to prevent lobbying, (because it's utterly fair that anybody should be able to ask for things or give their opinion on something), but to remove all money for the process. |
Works for me. At minimum the playing field needs to be leveled.
The amount of money you spend lobbying an issue doesn't make your issue more important, or your position more correct. But the result is that.
If the point of government isn't to make laws that are fair to everyone, what's the point?
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Cail
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| wayfriend wrote: | | Cail wrote: | Here's the problem. Let's say we remove all corporate money from politics, but the AFL/CIO still can, as can The Sierra Club. So now you've got one side of a relationship (workers and environmentalists) who can influence policy, and the other side who can't.
Care to guess how that turns out? |
I'm not noticing that the way it is now has turned out well. Are you advocating for the status quo? |
Clearly not, as I quite specifically said.... | Cail wrote: | | Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | | I can live with that. I would be more than happy to end all group-based lobbying of politicians, even if the group supports hugs for kittens. |
I'd sign on for that, but you'd never get it past SCOTUS. |
Please try to keep up.
| wayfriend wrote: | BTW, the problem is not who has access, it's the disproprotions of the access.
No organization funded by individual contributions can EVER EVER EVER compete with a corporation that makes billions of dollars of profit a year.
Loudest voice wins. |
No, that's not it at all. The problem is the access, and the fact that money exchanges hands at all between influence groups and the government. It's bribery, plain and simple.
| wayfriend wrote: | | Cail wrote: | | People don't lose their rights when they join a group. |
Does it help anyone to keep groundhogdaying this one? A corporation is not a group of people. The laws of corporation go out of their way to make that point, because the goal of corporations is to have assets (like money) that doesn't belong to people. |
Apparently not, as you still fail to understand the simple truth of the matter. As I specifically stated all around your cherry-picked quote..... | Cail wrote: | | Corporations aren't people. Neither are unions. Neither are nonprofits. People have rights. People don't lose their rights when they join a group. Any group that has any sort of government-defined legal structure can have limitations set on what they do. There are currently contribution limitations imposed on certain types of these groups. It would not be out of line (I think) to prohibit donations from any of these groups as a matter of their legal structure. It would be (I think) completely out of line to only prohibit donations from one type of group. |
Please try to keep up.
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wayfriend
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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(So I misunderstood what you said and didn't know I was agreeing with you. Well, that's worth a couple of insults at least!)
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Cail
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| wayfriend wrote: | | (So I misunderstood what you said and didn't know I was agreeing with you. Well, that's worth a couple of insults at least!) |
There's no insults there, unless you're insulted by me pointing out that you didn't bother to read my post(s).
Truly, it's not all about you.
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Zarathustra
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| wayfriend wrote: |
Scale matters. Because scale makes things possible that otherwise aren't. Sometimes scale doesn't just mean "doing the same thing but more often", but means "able to do things you otherwise could not do". |
Of course scale matters. That's why I pointed out that ALEC must necessarily be a small fraction of all laws written by lobbyists. Just because they are bigger than other lobbyists groups (purportedly) doesn't mean they are bigger than the problem of lobbying in general. If the problem here is lobbying in general, then their size is irrelevant. Only if your purpose here is to target one particular lobbying group, then I suppose their size does become relevant. But if that's the case, then one must provide evidence that they are indeed larger than every other lobbying group. Until you provide a list of all lobbyists, and the number of laws which they write, the very thing which you're claiming is relevant (only by limiting the scope of relevance down from the general problem of all lobbying) hasn't been shown.
Taking one of your examples, it's like saying, "Police found more pot in Obama's back yard than any pot bust in history." And then someone else (like me) asking, "Oh really? How much was found? And how big were all the other busts in history?" And then you replying, "Um, erm, no comment. I've got this article, and it uses very strong language that has me very concerned. Stop attacking me."
And then, building on the analogy, I could ask, "Is the problem Obama's pot bust, or this this merely a symptom of a larger problem involving drugs in general?" And then you responding, "Sure, there's a larger problem, but let's not lose sight of this one instance, because it's totally different from any other example you might bring up."
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche |
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wayfriend
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, no one knows how many legislators belong to ALEC. It's a secret. However, ALEC describes itself as the largest.
| ALEC wrote: | | The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is the nation's largest nonpartisan individual membership association of state legislators, with over 2,000 state legislators across the nation and more than 100 alumni members in Congress. |
But
| alecwatch.org wrote: | | Although ALEC calls itself the largest, bipartisan, individual membership association of state legislators in virtually all its promotional materials, it is only nominally bipartisan and declines to make its membership list public. All of the state legislators who serve as officers of ALEC are Republicans, and only one of the organizations twenty-nine directors is a Democrat.[link] |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | | Zarathustra wrote: | | So should we end lobbying all together? |
Yes, yes, and a thousand times yes.
Lobbyists do one thing--cajole politicians into drafting legislation that benefits only them. Yes, some legislation might benefit average citizens but that is only ancillary.
Putting an end to all corporate lobbying immediately will do the following:
1) make politicians more accountable to their constituents
2) give us more reasonable laws that do not so clearly (or sometimes not so clearly) favor only a small group of people
3) give us fewer laws overall. There should never be a "pipeline" of propsed legislation. |
What's a lobby? Is it "BIG BUSINESS" trying to get tax breaks? Or is it big "TREE HUGGERS" trying to get conservation bills passed? Or is it a couple of hundred people in "NOWHEREVILLE" USA trying to the Army to locate thier new training base near thier town?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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A lobby is simply a group trying to get something passed in Congress, whether it is a group representing a particular industry or a group trying to get a military base in their city.
I don't mind citizens trying to bring something to the attention of their representative because that is active participation politics.
I do mind--and argue against--a group trying to buy a politician by giving tons of money to their election campaign in return for future favors.
I can't make the point any clearer--unlimited money to politicians via lobbying groups destabilizes a democratic republic like ours. It does so by making the politicians beholden to those who gave them money rather than to the voting constituents.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Hashi Lebwohl wrote: | | I can't make the point any clearer--unlimited money to politicians via lobbying groups destabilizes a democratic republic like ours. |
Destabilized.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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hrm...I can't argue with that assessment. Strike my present active verb and substitute wayfriend's past tense verb.
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| Don Exnihilote wrote: | | Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken. |
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Cail
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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I couldn't agree any more.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| wayfriend wrote: |
| deer of the dawn wrote: | And  for you, WF. Carry on. |
What are you doing here?  |
I, too, have my depraved side. 
Everything this discussion has pointed to seems to come back to the discussion on capitalism and freedom-- that the flaw at the heart of that is that the ones with the most money use it to get what they want, and it usually involves exploiting or oppressing others. It's the way of the world, and it's nothing new.
But I appreciate Wayfriend for remaining outraged, as we should at injustice, no matter how endemic it is.
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