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Against All Things Ending, Part 2, Chapter 8

 
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SoulBiter
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Against All Things Ending, Part 2, Chapter 8 Reply with quote

There is a lot going on here and I’m going to miss plenty but that should give everyone something to comment on and give us their insight.
And we have seen again that High Lord Prothall was right when he said
Quote:
And power is at all times a dreadful thing.

Linden unknowingly walked into a trap set by the Lurker and the Feorce. Somehow they had found a break in her mind in such a way as to make her think she was back in Haven Farm fighting for her life.
Quote:
Somehow the fact that she had cut herself the previous night had left her vulnerable

Using that the Feorce had been able to make her think her staff was nothing more than her medical bag and she had used the staff to repel her friends. But not in a friendly way. She had burned them, even some of the giants showed blisters on their hands.
She has questions::
Quote:
Who or what were the Feorce?
What manner of magic did they wield?
Why did they serve the lurker?
Why did the lurker crave her staff?
Why had the Ranyhyn abandoned them? (They were scared that they would all be killed like Kelenbhrabanal was.)


Im not sure if we get answers or not so lets read on……
A Ranyhyn finally shows up and its Hynyn. The Menethrall throws himself prostrate and he is summarily ignored and Stave leaps to the Ranyhyns back and they ride off!
Then Mahrtiir told a story of Kelenbhrabanal and he has some questions. First and foremost:
How was of Kelenbhrabanal slain? They think that somehow the lurker was involved because they believe that of Kelenbhrabanal could not have been killed by LF.
What crime do the Ranyhyn grieve, apart from betrayal?
He then wants to know why she attacked them and she tells them of the coercion that compelled her:
Quote:
When I thought that I was beating at the flames, I must have been fighting you. Keeping you away while I tried to escape. But when I threw the staff the Feorce dropped their glamour. I wasn’t what they wanted. (snip)All at once, I stopped believing that I was trapped. The house and the fire disappeared and I was here again.

I bet she expected them to yell at her or something but instead she gets this;
From Mahrtiir
Quote:
“Ringthane I am content”

From the giants:
Quote:
” Therefore I salute you, Chosen Ringthane. Once again you have wrestled life from the teeth of death, as by your own account you have done from the first”.

Too cool… I just cant get enough of the giants!!!! And then this:
Quote:
“By your leave, Frostheart Grueburn will assume guardianship of your staff in the event that the Feroce essay another approach. We cannot be assured that her mind will not also fall into glamour, as yours did, However---“
“It will not, put in Onyx Stonemage. “You speak of Grueburn, whose natural bewilderment excludes other confusion”

Just cracks me up….
Stave shows up and the Ranyhyn want them to move and move fast but he doesn’t know why only that they seem to indicate haste. So they all climb on the Ranyhyn and off they go. Mostly hoping for a bath at their destination, the tributary of the Ruinwash.
On the way she has a conversation with Stave about Kevin.
Quote:
”Ever since the Ritual of Desecration, he’s been called the Landwaster. I guess that makes me the Earthwaster. Compared to waking up the Worm, his Ritual looks like a petty offense. I want to know what he and I have in common.”

Now that’s an intense question to ask someone. But she isn’t finished.
She tells Stave that she was angry in Andelain but she had hope. She loves TC and wanted him alive but also and more importantly, she though he was the best person to save the Land.
Quote:
So now, I want to know what Kevin and I have in common. He destroyed pretty much everything. I thought that I was saving everything.

An important distinction don’t you think?
Stave of course answers:
Quote:
IF, chosen. That you share with High Lord Kevin Landwaster, who is now forgiven by his sires. IF.

He goes through quite a few ‘ifs’ but then he comes to the crux of the matter…. A comparison of Kevin with the Masters of the Land.
Quote:
”Chosen, you have rightly charged the Masters with arrogance. They have deemed themselves wise enough, and worthy, to prejudge the use which the folk of the Land would make of their knowledge. After his own fashion Kevin was similarly arrogant.” (snip)”Arrogating himself responsibility for the fate of those who fell, he demeaned them---and failed to perceive Corruption clearly. Faulting himself for error rather than Corruption for treachery, he was self-misled to the Ritual of Desecration, and could not turn aside”

Stave had really grown since the first of this book and I find myself thinking of him as I would Bannor in the later part of the First Chronicles. But he isn’t done yet. Just when I think he is going to let Linden off the hook, he instead drives home what he was getting after.
Quote:
”Now however matters stand otherwise. Now you do not consider that Liand acted according to his own desires, or that Anele did not plainly or loudly demand the orcrest, or that you had companions who might have been better able to heed the old man at that moment. Nor do you consider that the deed of Liands death was Kastenessen’s. Rather you demean all who stand with you by believing that there can be no other fault than yours, and no fault of yours can be condoned. Doing so you tread paths prepared for you by Fangthane’s Malice, as Manthrall Mahrtiir has said. Thus you emulate High Lord Kevin.

Whoa!!! No… not Bannor… he surpasses Bannor in this moment, in my estimation… Kevin was arrogant, the Masters are arrogant and she.. yes Linden.. was arrogant.
After that.. they could see their destination and the Ranyhyn pick up speed. As they do Linden has more questions:
Why had they risked proximity to the Sarangrave?
Where were they taking her?
Why were they in a hurry now when they had been plodding along for two days?
They all have decided to trust the Ranyhyn and Linden is ready to not make all the decisions herself. So leaving those that are walking behind, they ride at a full gallop toward their destination.
Quote:
Leaning low over Hyn’s neck, and clutching the Staff of Law across her thighs, Linden prayed that she was not making a fatal mistake.

Thus ends this chapter… did the Ranyhyn make amends? Not yet or at least not that we can tell. Did all those questions get answered… not in this chapter.
_________________
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My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Against All Things Ending, Part 2, Chapter 8 Reply with quote

This was a much shorter chapter than I had expected. But SoulBiter, you've done a great job of finding all of the nuggets of interest. I can't find anything you missed.

SoulBiter wrote:
Linden unknowingly walked into a trap set by the Lurker and the Feorce. Somehow they had found a break in her mind in such a way as to make her think she was back in Haven Farm fighting for her life.
Quote:
Somehow the fact that she had cut herself the previous night had left her vulnerable

I think the whole story is more complex than this.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
The cuts that she had made in her lower leg had exposed her true weakness. [...] But her cuts had also saved her. There is hope in contradiction.

The paths of strength and weakness are always a mere step apart. Life and death are too intimately intergrown to be severed from each other. A theme we've found in the Chronicles since the first. I think we are here reminded again.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
In Andelain, you surrendered your Staff to redeem your son. Doing so again, you have rescued yourself and us.

This, too, follows the pattern. There is no rescue without risk. There is no safety without pain. You can't win unless you can also lose.

Therefore, in my judgement, Linden made no bad choices here. Looking only at the weakness that allowed the Feroce to ensnare her, we do her an injustice.

SoulBiter wrote:
How was of Kelenbhrabanal slain? They think that somehow the lurker was involved because they believe that of Kelenbhrabanal could not have been killed by LF.

I certainly think that we need to accept this as true. So a little more of the history of the Land is revealed. And the fact that Kelenbhrabanal met the Lurker lets us see where in the timeline of the Land this fits in.

SoulBiter wrote:
What crime do the Ranyhyn grieve, apart from betrayal?

Well, the Ranyhyn are certainly ashamed of being scared of the Lurker.

But we get every hint that their shame is a bit more than that.

If we take some hints - that the Ranyhyn were suspiciously slow until the Feroce, and they were suspiciously in a hurry afterwards - and don't forget that the Ranyhyn led them to the skirts of the Sarangrave instead of avoiding it - we might conclude that the Ranyhyn wanted this encounter with the Feroce. With beings who can see the future, you never can tell when they might choose something that looks bad but leads to a greater good. And it's not stretching things to suspect that the great horses knew or suspected that Linden would handle it.

And if you subscribe to that notion, then it follows rather simply that the Ranyhyn are also ashamed that they had to put Linden into that situation.

(The Ranyhyn may be frightened of the Lurker -- but I would say that they showed considerable bravery nonetheless, in that they mastered their fear, in that they completed these arrangements that involved their hugest boogeyman.)

SoulBiter wrote:
Just when I think he is going to let Linden off the hook, he instead drives home what he was getting after.

I agree. I was taken aback myself. I think that there are some important clues here, as well.

Linden is like Kevin in that she held her plans back from her friends and allies - but that's does not make her a Desecrator.

Linden is also like Kevin for believing herself culpable for Lord Foul's treacheries - that's setting her up for Desecration.

These words make me think of Mhoram's words: We are accountable for nothing but the purity of our service. When we have given our best wisdom and our utterest strength to the defense of the Land, then no voice can raise accusation against us. Life or death, good or ill-victory or destruction - we are not required to solve these riddles. Let the Creator answer for the doom of his creation."

I think that the connection is there. Because when you blame yourself for those things that doom the Land, you are in a way making yourself responsible for the Land. But only the Creator has that responsibility. And no one except the Creator can accept the burden of that much responsibility.

And when you accept the responsibility, the inevitable failure will drive you to Despair. In punishing yourself, you come to merit punishment. Such Despair can only lead to Desecration in some form. You can't serve the Land in the way it needs to be served unless you clear your heart of such self-imposed punishments. Because only then are you able to give your best wisdom and utterest strength.

SoulBiter wrote:
Whoa!!! No… not Bannor… he surpasses Bannor in this moment, in my estimation…

Yes. He's the only Haruchai whose begun to see the arrogance of his own people. Perhaps this even gives him the best position to see it in others.

SoulBiter wrote:
Thus ends this chapter… did the Ranyhyn make amends? Not yet or at least not that we can tell. Did all those questions get answered… not in this chapter.

Quite right.

- - - - - - - - - - -

One thing I saw here which looks like it should kindle the flames of discussion.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
Now she understood the old man. When your deeds have come to doom, as they must—She understood Stave. She had spent so many years taking care of Jeremiah, so many years tending patients too damaged to provide for their own survival, that she had forgotten how to count on other kinds of relationships. She had allowed herself to believe only in Covenant—and now she doubted even him. Blind to the implications of her actions, she had in some sense treated all of her friends like children or invalids.

Even Liand. Even Stave.

Why else had she felt diminished whenever they had risen to challenges which had defeated her?

Reading this, I think Linden is both right and wrong. She sees it this way now, perhaps. But I can remember so many times when this was not true - when she let her friends make choices, and when she let her friends care for her instead of the other way around - that I just have to find this too simple an answer, and being too simple, it doesn't always fit.

But I invite comments on this.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Against All Things Ending, Part 2, Chapter 8 Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
Now she understood the old man. When your deeds have come to doom, as they must—She understood Stave. She had spent so many years taking care of Jeremiah, so many years tending patients too damaged to provide for their own survival, that she had forgotten how to count on other kinds of relationships. She had allowed herself to believe only in Covenant—and now she doubted even him. Blind to the implications of her actions, she had in some sense treated all of her friends like children or invalids.

Even Liand. Even Stave.

Why else had she felt diminished whenever they had risen to challenges which had defeated her?

Reading this, I think Linden is both right and wrong. She sees it this way now, perhaps. But I can remember so many times when this was not true - when she let her friends make choices, and when she let her friends care for her instead of the other way around - that I just have to find this too simple an answer, and being too simple, it doesn't always fit.

But I invite comments on this.


Interesting... She is almost exactly opposite of how TC was in the first Chronicles. TC was in many ways about letting someone else do everything so that he couldn't be blamed for anything. Sure he came through in the end but so often he let his friends bear the brunt of his decisions.
_________________
"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Against All Things Ending, Part 2, Chapter 8 Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Interesting... She is almost exactly opposite of how TC was in the first Chronicles. TC was in many ways about letting someone else do everything so that he couldn't be blamed for anything. Sure he came through in the end but so often he let his friends bear the brunt of his decisions.

That's a really good thought. I can't help but want to expand on it a little bit.

In the first Chronicles, TC tried to avoid a responsibility that everyone seemed to put on him. The result was that he tried to make others responsible. Eventually he accepted his responsibility.

In the Second Chronicles, TC believes that he's the one who needs to save the Land, and thinks he is to be solely responsible for everything. The result was that he tried to spare everyone else. Eventually he learned to let others contribute and bear the burdens.

In the Second Chronicles, which are Linden's first Chronicles, she too is given unwanted responsibility for the fate of the Land - by Gibbon, then by the Elohim. From the one, she is the doom of the Land, from the other, she is the savior. Like Covenant, her inability to see any power in herself leads her to believe she can't be responsible for either saving the Land or dooming it. She thinks TC especially is responsible, or at least other people, and she's just being carried along. Eventually she does come into her power, she accepts her responsibility.

In the Last Chronicles, which are Linden's second Chronicles, she too is ready to be the focus and the hero of the Land. But it's more complicated - she just wants to save her son, and let Covenant save the Land. However, she doesn't really resist the hero role, thinking it's just until Covenant shows up. When he does show up, and can't be the hero, she continues on as she has, trying to save the Land. And, as we have seen, to some extent she is also trying to spare others, in that she feels responsible for everything that happens.

So there are parallels: first, shunning responsibility, then accepting; later, assuming all responsibility, then sharing. It's as if the second phase takes the lesson from the first phase too far, and so the person needs to pull back from the logical extreme.

But there are also differences. The details of how these things arise are different, and in Linden's case a bit more complicated. Linden is like a boat following Covenant's boat - she's going to the same place, but the journey is more complicated because of Covenant's wake.

The interesting thing is, while Linden is retreading Covenant's old responsibility dilemmas in her own way, Covenant's going on to the next phase. The responsibility he feels for Joan is the biggest signpost we have to where he's going. Which seems to be, as best as I can guess, that sometimes there are responsibilities that are more important than saving the Land.

This I see could be the logical conclusion to Mhoram's admonition about what is required of us. What if Covenant, in striving his utmost to serve what he believes, isn't going to try to save the Land? Because what he wants to be true to isn't the service of the Land, but service to his ex-wife? And does Linden, again, follow this path with respect to Jeremiah?

(editted to refine this post a bit.)
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