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The unsprung trap

 
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shadowbinding shoe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: The unsprung trap Reply with quote

Linden and company won through many ordeals in this book to finally free Jeremiah but it could have all been for nothing if not for an unexpected turn of events: the alliance with the Lurker of Sarangrave. Remember the power of its servants. They can return beings to a previous state. Linden, with all the strengths she acquired over the years was nearly lost to their enchantments. How much worse would Jeremiah be under such an attack? The alliance Covenant made with the Lurker saved Jeremiah from certain and irrevocable doom.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Feroce seem to create illusions. Their spell makes someone believe that they are in an earlier situation -- but they are not, it is an illusion. This illusion seems to be derived from memories, although the Feroce seem to tweak it to suit their purposes.

So, yes, I suppose that they could cause Jeremiah to believe he is in his earlier state, and has not been freed, at least for the duration of the spell. Since in that state Jeremiah could no do anything, this would be a strategy to prevent him from acting, rather than causing him to act, I presume.

However, the larger question of whether Jeremiah is allied with Foul has not been answered.

It may be that the Feroce interfering with Jeremiah in this way could be a good thing, one which Covevant's alliance with the Sarangrave would require rather than prevent.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Jeremiah does not just think he is back to his 5-yr-old state, but acting on it, I tend not to think it's their doing.

I was just thinking yesterday how many beings in the Land (the ur-Viles, the Jeherrin, the Lurker) turn away from evil. It's like Foul can't fool them forever into thinking he's on their side or that they can achieve their wyrd without helping the Land.
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shadowbinding shoe
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what they did for Covenant's horse goes a bit beyond fooling it into believing it's in good shape. Will power and belief can only go so far.

Making the rock face in the Shattered Lands whole again so the company can traverse it is even more obviously a physical change.

Jeremiah was not just passive under the croyel's control, he was controlled into using his magic for his controller's benefit.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, the Feroce managed to cause the very stone at Kurash Quellinir to remember its strength. I tend to think that their power has more to do with memory than it does with illusion, though I can see how illusion plays a part.

The memory that Linden was made to relive was illusory in that she was rehashing something that she was not living through at the moment. But to say that the stone held its integrity long enough for the Ranyhyn to keep their footing on it for a short spell due to its being caught in an illusion seems a bit far fetched. I don't have the text in front of me, but IIRC it more supports the idea that the stone was caused to remember itself, its once non-fragile state, thus allowing it to hold longer than it really should have.

For me this memory aspect to the Feroce's power is tied up with the idea of origins. I believe we have not seen the last of their theurgy...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is memory not an illusion? Certainly, it's not reality. I would describe their power as building an illusion out of real memories.

Although shoe catches me on a good point. Still, I consider this more of a matter of stone being more person-like than we are used to considering (in that it has memory at all) rather than the Feroce having power over physical stone.

Certainly, with both the horse and the stone, the memory of being stronger was enough to believe that it was stronger, which in fact made it stronger, at least temporarilly. This is, I think, an extension of the mind-over-matter phenomenon. The horse believed it wasn't exhausted, although it really was, but this was sufficient to get one more burst of strength out of it -- probably at some considerable expense to it's health.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
Even with his blunt senses, Covenant could see that the Feroce had told the truth. His mount was still weak, worn down by overexertion: the lurker’s creatures had not given it strength. Nevertheless it had recovered its cantankerous spirit.

- caused it to remember what it is. While it lives -

Covenant prayed that the beast would live long enough.

I think the stone was induced for one more burst of strength in the same sort of way. It has memories. So why not allow that one can build an illusion for the stone out of those memories? It may not be exactly the same thing as with a horse -- but I think it is similar enough that the Feroce's power can be naturally extended to include such.

It is the nature of magick, after all, to find correspondences and metaphoric likenesses, and exploit them as channels of influence.

And ... oh yes, I quite believe that this power will be critical somewhere in the last book. Why bring in the Feroce if they don't have a significant purpose? Surely what we have seen so far was not so much signficant as an introduction and demonstration of their utility.

Might they not cause the Worm to remember it is slumberous? -- can't be that easy ...
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
For me this memory aspect to the Feroce's power is tied up with the idea of origins. I believe we have not seen the last of their theurgy...



I think Longwrath is the person who is wandering around the Sarangrave wielding an item of power. With his mind being lost due to the Elohim, I think the Feroce are going to play a pivotal role in reminding Longwrath of who and what he is. They will use their collective powers to bring him out of the Elohim's spell.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Queen Christine wrote:
earthbrah wrote:
For me this memory aspect to the Feroce's power is tied up with the idea of origins. I believe we have not seen the last of their theurgy...



I think Longwrath is the person who is wandering around the Sarangrave wielding an item of power. With his mind being lost due to the Elohim, I think the Feroce are going to play a pivotal role in reminding Longwrath of who and what he is. They will use their collective powers to bring him out of the Elohim's spell.


Perkele. I was going to post something of the very ilk about Longwrath/Feroce (not slash), but it appears you read my mind. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Queen Christine wrote:
earthbrah wrote:
For me this memory aspect to the Feroce's power is tied up with the idea of origins. I believe we have not seen the last of their theurgy...



I think Longwrath is the person who is wandering around the Sarangrave wielding an item of power. With his mind being lost due to the Elohim, I think the Feroce are going to play a pivotal role in reminding Longwrath of who and what he is. They will use their collective powers to bring him out of the Elohim's spell.


Wow, nice catch! Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Queen Christine wrote:
earthbrah wrote:
For me this memory aspect to the Feroce's power is tied up with the idea of origins. I believe we have not seen the last of their theurgy...



I think Longwrath is the person who is wandering around the Sarangrave wielding an item of power. With his mind being lost due to the Elohim, I think the Feroce are going to play a pivotal role in reminding Longwrath of who and what he is. They will use their collective powers to bring him out of the Elohim's spell.


Wow, nice catch! Shocked


That's a fun idea to play with...and maybe even closer to origins [maybe]...cuz I'm not sure that this Feroce power is actually theirs, but even if it is it is surely enhanced/extended by our old friend the Lurker...and it has been around for a LONG time now.

And "remembering" is tied to almost every plot and subplot...

I hadn't quite realized till I started on this just how many different things it IS part of. It always seemed important, but now it seems essential.

So yea, good call.

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