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Nyle's reasons for betrayal

 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 am    Post subject: Nyle's reasons for betrayal Reply with quote

I've been going through the dissections of TMOHD and while reading Torrent's post here: http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=98550&sid=6f77f372c093f9412f48eacfe0aea430#98550 had an epiphacy.

Why did Nyle feel wronged enough to betray his king? We know about how Joyce gave his attention to Geraden and overlooked Nyle. That he despised him a bit. It's gone over at length at the end of AMRT. But there is another reason for Nyle to hate Joyce that I haven't noticed till now that is maybe even more important.

In chapter 19, Elega says

Quote:
”I consider him a friend. And I respect him. He has a-a seriousness of mind?-no, a seriousness of desire which his brothers apparently lack. It is inconceivable, for instance, that he would spend Geraden’s years trying and failing to become an imager. And it also is inconceivable that he would learn Artagel’s skills and then refuse to use them-as Artagel has refused-to rise in command of the King’s guards. There was a time,” she admitted, “when if he had expressed an interest in my hand I would have taken him as seriously as he took me”


Now on the face of it this was just Nyle lacking guts to ask for her hand but that doesn't really fit what we know about these two. They're both determined and will do what they believe in. If they both loved each other and she was prepared to marry him why did nothing happen?

As the story progresses we learn more and more details about the augury Havelock cast about Joyce and which Joyce faithfully follows throughout the story to see its promises realized. There is of course the image of Geraden as an important imager, the first point of contention with Nyle but there is another image: Elega spreading her legs for prince Kragen in his tent, if I remember Havelock's description of it correctly. (an image that might have rather a lot to do with the way prince Kragen was humiliated when he came as the Alend ambassador to Joyce.)

To achieve a future where this image is realized Elega mustn't marry Nyle. We know Joyce betrothed her initially to Geraden which he must have been sure would have come to nothing. We should assume he dissueded Nyle and Elega from getting together in other ways.

So, though Nyle may not have been consciously aware of it, King Joyce sabotaged his love life for the sake of a prophecy. After everything he's been through in the story it's doubtful whether he will ever find happiness in that department.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Badabing Badaboom! You nailed it. You sacrifice the few for the good of the many.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's nearly time for a re-read. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
I think it's nearly time for a re-read. Very Happy

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I wouldn't be averse to it. We tried to do one a couple of years ago but only reached about midway through TMOHD
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Count me in on a reread!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know if I told you guys that I returned the SRD favor to my Dad a few years back. He gave me the Chrons when we were snowed in and me in my teens. He never read MN and I left part one when I visited last (his 70th B'day) and he picked it up and was hooked and sent me an angry email since part 2 was not readily available locally in rural VA. He was jonesing for it. HAHAHAHAAHA!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Avatar wrote:
I think it's nearly time for a re-read. Very Happy

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I wouldn't be averse to it. We tried to do one a couple of years ago but only reached about midway through TMOHD


Haha, a reread, not a new dissection. Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
So, though Nyle may not have been consciously aware of it, King Joyce sabotaged his love life for the sake of a prophecy. After everything he's been through in the story it's doubtful whether he will ever find happiness in that department.


I agree with Jenn that you nailed it right there, shoe! All Nyle can hope for is that he'll make Elega proud of him, nothing more.Sad
The following is from when Terisa and Geraden spot Nyle while Elega is taking them shopping in the courtyard.

Quote:
Distantly, Geraden replied, "He's been nursing a passion for her for years, but he thinks it's hopeless. He thinks--" he frowned in vexation. "I don't understand it. He thinks he isn't grand or special enough for her. He hasn't done anything dramatic in the world. He knows she's ambitious, and he's sure she won't have him. I think it galls him that I was the one who was betrothed to her--and I let her get away.

"He told us he was going to stay in Houseldon all winter to talk himself out of asking for her hand."

"So you think he came to Orison to see if she'll have him?"

Geraden nodded. His face was tight with empathy. "But I guess he hasn't asked her yet. If he did, and she turned him down, he wouldn't stick around. So she must have done something to hurt him before he got his courage nailed down tightly enough to actually propose. He can't leave because he hasn't done what he came for. But he's in too much pain to do it.

"Blast her." He glanced at Terisa. "I'm guessing, of course. But look at them. Whatever it is, she knows what's eating at him."

The glimpses Terisa caught through the crowd seemed to confirm Geraden's opinion. Elega was talking to Nyle--pleading with him?--as though she knew what to say. And his answers--brusque as they were--suggested understanding, even approval.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Nyle." Geraden held himself still. Even his voice became still. "I heard you. I was there." He included Terisa. "We were there. We heard everything you said. And Prince Kragen."

For just a second, Nyle gaped at his brother. He gaped at Terisa.

Mutely, she nodded in confirmation.

He straightened his shoulders, and anger closed his face like a shutter.

"So you've decided to stop me. Full of moral superiority, you've decided to stop me because you cling to the astonishing belief that King Joyse and chaos and terrible Imagery and a fresh start to the wars that crippled Mordant for generations are somehow preferable to putting the Perdon on the throne and saving the entire kingdom. You--"

"No." Geraden shook his head, suppressing violence. "It won't work. The Perdon will never accept Prince Kragen's offer--he knows that. He's sending you to do this to confuse the issue, so the Perdon won't have a chance to fight for Orison when Alend attacks."

"You're wrong, Geraden." Terisa was surprised to hear herself speak. Her voice was like a small animal huddling against the cold and barely alive. "I'm sorry. I've met the Perdon. I've seen him and Prince Kragen together. He's desperate. He won't turn the Prince down."

Geraden gave her a quick look of dismay; but Nyle didn't glance away from his brother. "Even if that's not true," he resumed, "you're acting like a child. Prince Kragen is right. The Alend Monarch is right. The worst thing that can happen to us is for High King Festten to get his hands on the Congery.

"We're already being torn apart by an Imager no one can find or stop. Cadwal will be able to decimate everything west of the Vertigon if the Congery falls. On our mother's grave, Geraden, we ought to beg Margonal to invade us.

"Instead of interfering, why don't you figure out what you're going to say to all the families who are going to be butchered--all the children who are going to be bereaved--all the men and women who are going to be maimed and massacred when King Joyse finally collapses and no power strong enough to hold the realm together takes his pace?

"In the meantime, get out of my way."

Thrusting between Geraden and Terisa, he stamped off after his horse.

The dismay on Geraden's face got worse. For a moment, he seemed unable to move. Confused and alarmed, Terisa reached out a hand to him. "Geraden?"

Abruptly, his features knotted, and he swung into motion.

Chasing Nyle, he yelled, "That's great! Wonderful! You're right, of course. You're being perfectly reasonable. Our father is going to be very proud of you."

Nyle flinched, but kept on walking.

"There's just one thing. What about loyalty? King Joyse is our father's friend. What about self-respect? You're betraying your King, the man who made Mordant and peace out of nothing but bloodshed. How are you planning to live the rest of your life without loyalty or self-respect?"

"Loyalty to whom?" Though Nyle's stride didn't falter, his shout was like a cry. "King Joyse? When was he ever loyal to me?

"He met all of us. He must have seen me dying for his notice, his approval. But you're the one he invited to Orison. When he decided to betroth Elega, he chose you. And a brilliant choice it was, too. You've certainly vindicated his good judgment, haven't you? Forgive me, but I find it a little difficult to feel warm and sentimental about that man.

"And he going to get us all killed!" Small pieces of his distress echoed back from the tree trunks. "Don't you understand that? How much self-respect are you going to get out of giving your life for a man who sacrificed you simply because he couldn't be bothered to hold his realm together? If you want to talk about self-respect, ask yourself whey you place so little value on your own blood. I won't even mention the blood of all the people you claim to care about."


From this I gather that much of Nyle's reasons for betrayl come from Prince Kragen's argument about the Congery must never fall in Festten's hands, and his remaining reasons involve grudges over being slighted by King Joyse. And, as Shadowbinding Shoe has pointed out, because the King sabotaged any chance of a future relationship between Nyle and Elega.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Geraden wasn't listening. He stared at the body hanging from the stallion. Terisa could see the contours of his face aging. "Argus," he said thickly. "I got you killed."

"Very good," Nyle snarled at him. "This is wonderful. Now you've got the worst of both sides. Without Prince Kragen, you can't stop Margonal's army. But you insisted on stopping me. This way, the Alend Monarch won't have any choice. After he breaks Orison, he'll have to keep it for himself."


One more reason for Nyle's betrayal: if he'd succeeded, at least he'd have betrayed the King so that another Mordant would be sitting on the throne, rather than an Alend or Cadwal.
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