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Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points, but I don't really think that there's any way that the Chronicles could be presented to a non-adult audience. Even from the get go, you have Covenant turning into a bitter, twisted man who has lost everything and only survives on a deep well of anger. Not exactly Disney material... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And all the better for it. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IrrationalSanity wrote:
I agree Daughter could be a good movie. Also Mordant's Need. If I were to do a Covenant series, though, I still think 2nd Chrons would be a more natural start. A little prologue, and a few flashbacks, would be enough background for almost most viewers (except maybe the THOOLAH crowd. Wink ).


No, no, no, no, no, no.
Cut Foamfollower, Mhoram, Lena, Bannor, and the rest? Hile Troy? All the fundamental actions and crimes committed by Covenant that make his whole journey to redemption necessary? A 'few flashbacks' could not replace all that. Arguably, the best characters are in the FC.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amanibhavam wrote:
IrrationalSanity wrote:
I still think 2nd Chrons would be a more natural start. A little prologue, and a few flashbacks


No, no, no, no, no, no.


Heh! Mostly agree. The Second would be EASIER to do. And easier to mold into something more marketable.
But it wouldn't make sense without so much from the First, and no number of cinematic history-reveal tricks would be sufficient.

But Z has the heart of it: so much has to be translated/transformed from verbal to visual to convey the same content. [how do you visually do "healthsense?"...without looking like all the previous, and mostly failed/silly attempts at halos and auras? But that sense is a small, but essential detail.]
Doing so would require great acting...and even better design.
And that design is problematic...it couldn't possibly satisfy most of the fans of the books, cuz it is too personal. We'd all have to suck it up look at it on the merits/objectively. All accept that it would be A, or ONE vision/version of the Chrons. But not the books. Not what SRD wrote, and not what we each read.

I personally think that that effort to translate/transform, done well, would make great films. And the difference from the books a cool thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Heh! Mostly agree. The Second would be EASIER to do. And easier to mold into something more marketable.

I really can't grasp that concept.

There'd be so much that doesn't make sense without the earlier story. Just for example, Coercri would be such a travesty that the whole notion is a non-starter.

But I don't understand what is non-easy nor non-marketable about the first Chronicles. It's got plenty of action, plenty of spectacle, plenty of drama, and a damn fine resolution. Unless this is still about the r-word.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the portrayal of the beauty of the Land could actually be very effectively used. I am thinking of how 'Avatar' (the Cameron film, not ours Laughing) induced Pandoritis in many people. I think that this effect could be very powerful for portraying the Land as seen through Covenant's and Linden's eyes. When Covenant is first treated with hurtloam he would begin to see the Land in a heightened way.

In the second series there would be a constant changing back and forth as the view moved from Covenant to Linden. It would certainly be striking. The effect of Kevin's dirt would also be demonstrated by this technique.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U, I agree to some extent. Some of the "tricks" could be simply making colors more vivid after TC has the hurtloam, kind of like Dorothy entering Oz and suddenly everything is in color, except more subtle than switching from b/w. Everything could have a slight aura, like a more subtle version of Arwen when she first meets Frodo in Jackson's movie. There are plenty of Hollywood tricks to make things look trippy, which could be applied sparingly when health or magic needs to be emphasized. Combined with a great score, the music could supply the emotional dimension.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Vraith wrote:
Heh! Mostly agree. The Second would be EASIER to do. And easier to mold into something more marketable.

I really can't grasp that concept.

There'd be so much that doesn't make sense without the earlier story. Just for example, Coercri would be such a travesty that the whole notion is a non-starter.

Well, I DID say, in the very next sentence, that the second wouldn't make any sense without the first
And I WAS agreeing with the "no"-line concerning how the First could be incorporated sufficiently by some montage and flashback or whatever. Wink

But I do think the Second fits film-story "models" more closely. And it has the benefit of a lot more dialogue, and situations that can be dealt with/explained through dialogue/conversation. The books are more interactive.
Technically/structurally easier, not meaning/story better.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
And it has the benefit of a lot more dialogue, and situations that can be dealt with/explained through dialogue/conversation. The books are more interactive.
Technically/structurally easier, not meaning/story better.

You know, I bet that's not as true as one might think.

TC has a fair amount of internal monologue in the Second Chronicles, and if anything, Linden has more internal monologue. Yes, this can be handled by using actual dialog ... but the same can be said about the first Chronicles. In fact, Donaldson provides some good examples himself.

In The Illearth War was wrote:
"Damn it! Look at me. Feel my grip. I'm here. It's a fact. It's real."

"I feel you. And I see you. I even hear you. But that only proves my point. I don't believe it. Now let go of me."

"Why?!"

"Because I can feel it. And I can't afford it. Now listen to me. Listen hard. I'm going to try to explain this so you can understand."

In the first Chronicles, Covenant has opportunities to explain himself aloud to Lena, to Atiaran, to Foamfollower, to the Council, to Mhoram, to Bannor, to Elena, to Troy, to Triock, to several Ravers, and to Foul himself. None of that would be so much a stretch if the story were so adjusted.

In fact, by insisting that the Land is a dream, it actually gives him a very plausible reason for unloading his fears and concerns and guilt and reasoning on the people around him. They're not real, he thinks. Being unreal, there's nothing holding him back from sharing. It is, in his mind, therapy.

Not to mention that he is "closed to" them. It's entirely plausible that they would be trying to engage him in conversation in a way that reveals his heart, because they cannot "see" it in the way that they have come to take for granted.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really do think that the First Chronicles contain many-many very cinematic events that make them eminently suitable for filming. The siege of Revelstone, Lord Shetra's and Hyrim's quest, Foamfollower and Covenant at Hotash Slay, the battle at Doriendor Korishev, so many opportunities. As for all that is ongoing internally - that is the job of the screenwriter and the cinematographer, to convert them into dialogue and image.
The LotR films are a good example: pages and pages of description were successfully conveyed to the viewer by carefully and painstakingly created props, costumes, settings, and vistas. It would not be impossible to do the same with the Chronicles. And as for the result not being the same as what's in the mind of the reader - that's true for all adaptations.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amanibhavam wrote:
I really do think that the First Chronicles contain many-many very cinematic events that make them eminently suitable for filming. The siege of Revelstone, Lord Shetra's and Hyrim's quest, Foamfollower and Covenant at Hotash Slay, the battle at Doriendor Korishev, so many opportunities.

I would particularly like to see the Rearing of the Ranyhyn from LFB. But just in that one movie, there are so many great moments for an opening installment. Seeing Revelstone for the first time. The Battle of Soaring Woodhelven. The descent into Mount Thunder.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amanibhavam wrote:
pages and pages of description were successfully conveyed to the viewer by carefully and painstakingly created props, costumes, settings, and vistas. It would not be impossible to do the same with the Chronicles.


Yes, not impossible, but far more difficult kind of transformation.
Some things, like Revelstone, are relatively easy. [not as easy as an "ordinary" or "traditional" fantasy castle...but nowhere near as difficult as...a certain place in the Last Chron's.]

I know all adaptations suffer [or at least face opposition/challenges] in the media-shift. But the reasons that make the transformation more difficult for this than for LOTR are the same reasons it would face more challenges, and require more flexibility on the part of readers.

LOTR honestly, faced very few if any problems that weren't simply technical.
The Chron's is a different kind of problem.
I don't have the answers to all the problems...or even very many...but I think the result/solution film would be, analogically, a helluva lot less LOTR-like, and much more 2001:-like.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
amanibhavam wrote:
I really do think that the First Chronicles contain many-many very cinematic events that make them eminently suitable for filming. The siege of Revelstone, Lord Shetra's and Hyrim's quest, Foamfollower and Covenant at Hotash Slay, the battle at Doriendor Korishev, so many opportunities.

I would particularly like to see the Rearing of the Ranyhyn from LFB. But just in that one movie, there are so many great moments for an opening installment. Seeing Revelstone for the first time. The Battle of Soaring Woodhelven. The descent into Mount Thunder.

There's a good bit of walking in the first book, but then there was lots of walking in The Fellowship. It can be a good way to become familiar with characters that you are going to be spending a long time with.

I read the 1st Chronicles again recently and was surprised at how pacy it is. At one level the whole series is an adventure series, there's important stuff happening all the time. They would need to be LOTR-length films.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In some respects, Lord of the Rings is the wrong comparison. Better would be Star Wars.

George Lucas had the whole arc at least conceived, but determined that the "middle" story would be the one most likely to catch the imagination of the general public. Face it, if The Phantom Menace had been made first, do you think there would have ever been another?

Chronicles may have "cinematic moments", but The Second is a "cinematic story".
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
At one level the whole series is an adventure series, there's important stuff happening all the time.
u.


That's an intersting way of putting it u.; this is the way I read the Chrons [1 & 2 at least] all the time. The additional levels are always the secondary aspect for me - and chiefly not even considered untill I get into this place, where the alternative interpretations are given an airing. I'm a very 'visual' reader which is probably why C's 1 and 2 work so well for me [what with the vivid descriptions of the effects of 'health sense and all] - and why I struggle with a 'drab' landscape in C3.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that just crossed my mind is not so much is it possible from a technical point of view, but is the investment in the movies something that would attract producers willing to put enough money into it?

The obvious place to go to for this would be readership numbers, which could be garnered from book sales. To look at something of a similar nature (at least from the perspective of genre and scope) Lord of the Rings has sold around 150 million copies, but the First and Second Chronicles has only sold around 10 million between them.

Sales might not be enough to persuade investors that they will get a return on their money either, as there are plenty of best selling books that did not translate into the same success when made into a movie. Atlas Shrugged sold approximately 7 million copies, but the films have been box office failures.

Selling the idea to someone could possibly be the first stumbling block.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. That was the first stumbling block.

(If anyone is unfamiliar with the events of 2004/2005, you may want to check out the Movie News thread as a starter.)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie? Reply with quote

michaelm wrote:
Atlas Shrugged sold approximately 7 million copies, but the films have been box office failures.

Selling the idea to someone could possibly be the first stumbling block.


Those Ayn Rand adaptations have a reputation as being utterly woeful
http://www.avclub.com/review/atlas-shrugged-part-iii-plays-cheap-knock-itself-209412

After watching a few highly entertaining anime/cartoons over the past year, I'm increasingly convinced that an animated adaptation of the Covenant books would be the cheapest, most viable option.

Get Studio Mir on board, one season per book.

Quote:
The real problem is that SRD's Land just isn't as visually striking as many other fantasy worlds. Rock huts and tree villages, and then one "castle." I suppose Mt Thunder could be impressive, and Ridjeck Thome. But I think a film version would pale in comparison to both Middle Earth and Westeros, the fantastic as well as the mundane. There's just not a lot to it. And what it does have to offer visually, we've seen before. Soldiers marching. Forests. Mountains. Donaldson isn't a world builder. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not very cinematic.


this is an interesting take; I'd counter by saying it isn't neccessarily the look of the Land which makes it interesting, it's those indelibly memorable scenes which elevate it.
Imagine a flashback to the Ritual of Desecration as described by Foul to Covenant at the beginning of LFB?
Two characters, one on the edge of utter despair, one on the verge of triumph, enact the end of the world as they know it in an effort to rid themselves of each other. And then the world melts/dissolves.
Ya don't see that in every other movie/cartoon/tv show.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm...... Animation was not a sucess re the first attempt at TLOTR, but with the major advances both in traditional and 'CGI' based graphics it could work. It'd have to be sensitively done though.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie? Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
michaelm wrote:
Atlas Shrugged sold approximately 7 million copies, but the films have been box office failures.

Selling the idea to someone could possibly be the first stumbling block.


Those Ayn Rand adaptations have a reputation as being utterly woeful
http://www.avclub.com/review/atlas-shrugged-part-iii-plays-cheap-knock-itself-209412

I think the biggest problem they ran into was getting enough budget. I think they were made on something like $10 million each, which is loose change in the movie industry.
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