Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Insequent and Unfettered
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> Against All Things Ending
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6677

Thanks: 38
Thanked 43 Times in 42 Posts


21598 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a problem with separate time-lines from the past both being extant in a single time-line of the now, because it flys in the face of the way things are predicted to work (ie time-lines fusing together rather than splitting) BUT.... if you're going to accept the time-travel thing at all you have to go with it as far as it goes. One final question - I don't get it and I'm not going to pretend I do (neither am I that worried by it because I still love the stories) but does it make sense. I mean in the story-sense way that Vraith puts it above, or is there an unresolvable breakdown in continuity in there - a paradox which, like TC, we just have to accept.
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18464

Thanks: 11
Thanked 199 Times in 182 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41585 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with Vraith here on this. The clues suggest that the timelines are indeed alternate, else there would be no healing, nor any danger. However, the alternate timelines MUST not change the future, which suggests that there is one future.

If you examine this, this is a hybrid theory of time travel which is neither the standard single-timeline nor the standard alternate-timeline theory.

Timelines may split, but they also rejoin. Failure to rejoin a timeline, because it creates a different future, destroys the Earth.

So Linden was never in the past in the original timeline. However, the new timeline she created rejoined at a later point, and had no effect on the future.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Krilly
Super-Fighting-Haruchai!

Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 211

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Shorewood, IL
349 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to agree too. Unlike usual alternate time line stories where past time travel creates new, forever separate time lines (see Back to the Future, Chrono Trigger, etc) it's as if in the Land you can create divergences, but like a wave form, the divergences tend to (hopefully) find their way back and curve into place again. Fortunately we have Theomachs and Elohim who can spot events that can make too big of a wave. Wink

Though this also begs the question of how Anele originally lost the Staff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Vraith
LibTard, Mr. Reliable.


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 9814

Thanks: 17
Thanked 85 Times in 83 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
35122 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I am with Vraith here on this. The clues suggest that the timelines are indeed alternate, else there would be no healing, nor any danger. However, the alternate timelines MUST not change the future, which suggests that there is one future.


Hmmm...yes and no on changing the future.
For instance, no one can change the fact that the Worm will awaken.
But one can change how it comes about, and the effects of it [total permanent obliteration, or an end and a beginning seems to be the current "battle."]
You can't change THAT Berek learns the 7 words. But there were/are many methods/stories by which he could learn them.

That's what it means that the future is now "writ in water," whatever the exact phrase was: Everyone with visions of the future saw paths/outcomes...not just one, but many in most cases.
Linden has redacted or deleted all those paths. If what the Ardent says is true, this might be the first time EVER that no one in the world has the slightest idea how things end.

_________________
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
-------------------------------------------------------
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg
Wormmark of the Weirdwurd


Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 155

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


1423 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not having so much trouble with the one or two timelines merging or existing separately thing but more with like, the trillion other timelines that pop up every time Linden goes to become Damelon's mother, or whatever she did in the past,

Spoiler:
In the Xenosaga series, which is from the Chrono Trigger creators, and was tragically cut short, but, at the end of the third game, you are basically rushing to stop the main antagonist from resetting time. Sending the whole universe backwords to the year...i'm not sure exactly. He sends the universe back in time to prevent god or someone from destroying it, and then trick's god into believing it really is that time, and then they live out the future again, and every time they get to the year XXXX he sends them back, more or less, I forget exactly why he does it, and it isn't important. The important part is, when you get to that point in the game series, obviously you stop him, because the hero always wins, and I assumed that stopping him meant his plan failed and time didn't get reset etc etc. Then I learned from supplementary reading that...that was not cycle #1. It was cycle like #2740948, and finally there was enough feedback built up over eternity to allow them to do things differently this time, etc etc.
So when Linden goes back in time, is that the first time she's gone back in time? (In that situation I mean, diaf with your staff of law back in time comments) Seems to me, way too many people have the power to travel in time, and the inclination to meddle in small amounts, and every time they DO meddle, the law of time heals from it and fixes paradoxes? But then every time they do it, wouldn't another crazy alternative cycle universe pop up?

I don't think it can be written off as being limited to the two timelines, where Linden was there and where Linden was not there. Because so many people have the power to screw up time. We just think of two timelines because we are reading a series through Linden's perspective. If we read a book series that runs through the Creator's perspective, the timeline stuff would make our heads explode. Well, assuming the Creator is like earth god and knows everything that happens anywhere at all times, or in this case timelines?
_________________
I know what an analogy is! It's like a thought...with another thought's hat on...?

The thing most people don't remember in regards to the Haruchai, is that you NEVER EVER play poker with them!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18464

Thanks: 11
Thanked 199 Times in 182 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41585 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that they would destroy the Arch of Time seems like a sufficient means of preventing people from "screwing up time".

Also, since this is an age of the Land where Time has been weakened by the breaking of the Laws of Life and Death, an age that has lasted 3500 years, I would expect a larger number of "time-loose" characters than would be otherwise expected. (I borrow that term from Radix; it describes someone who is not fixed in time.) For a long while it has been easier to do Time tricks than would be possible with a healthy Time/Arch/Law complex.

(I am not arguing that you are wrong, so much as trying provide sufficient plausibility for you to find the series less inexplicable.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Krilly
Super-Fighting-Haruchai!

Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 211

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Shorewood, IL
349 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I think I see what you're saying. You're wondering what would Linden see if, for instance, she traveled back in time *again*. Would she see herself and the others traveling to Earthroot? I think she would. She wouldn't see her future self though the "first" time going but definitely the second because the rules seem to lean towards an unwritten future. So yeah, I could imagine there being cycles of sorts.

I'm kinda wary to accept a multiple alternate reality concept but... that's an easy stance with such a huge time travel gap. What about a 5 minute time travel? What if Linden travels back a few minutes, leaving Covenant behind, and kicks him in the shin? Does the Covenant left behind continue to live in an alternate reality? Does Linden show up when she travels back or only shows up in the new reality? Or are they merged even in such a small time space and the original Covenant suddenly gets a new pain and altered memory?

...no wonder only the best of The Insequent tackle this theurgy. Eureka

(also: Great Scott, what a topic derail!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg
Wormmark of the Weirdwurd


Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 155

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


1423 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the law of time's self healing is a pretty big catch-all. I mean, assuming the that the Berek from the first 3 books had the Theomach's assistance, but not Linden's, Roger did mention the Theomach would attach himself to Berek either way, but Linden made it easier for him.

From what we see in Fatal Revenant, he changed a crap storm of long reaching things, nothing arch breakingly major, but if the arch breaks by an action that causes more than a 4.0 on the time-distortion-richtor-scale, they seem to be pretty willing and capable of causing things that are a 3.5-3.9.

I mean, in FR the legend of Berek returning, White Gold itself, and the unfettered (and who knows what else) all come from the Theomach making up bullshit to explain Linden.

I lost my train of thought there but now I have a new one. If there are 2 timelines, one where Linden met Berek and one where she did not, then in the No-Linden timeline, why did the Theomach invent those legends, assuming he did, and why did he tell Berek about Gold/White Gold, also assuming he did, and if not who DID? It says in LFB that Berek knew of Gold (it doesn't say White Gold) despite it not being present in the land.

For that matter, is there a distinction between gold and white gold? White gold is wild magic, what is regular gold, order magic? =p

Anyways getting back to my original point, the ability of the law of time to repair itself seems like a real plot contrivance to let him do whatever he wants. THANKFULLY he is not abusing that power like other authors do.
_________________
I know what an analogy is! It's like a thought...with another thought's hat on...?

The thing most people don't remember in regards to the Haruchai, is that you NEVER EVER play poker with them!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seppi2112
Stupid Intern...

Male
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 227

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Los Angeles
340 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caamora1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
The fact that they would destroy the Arch of Time seems like a sufficient means of preventing people from "screwing up time".

Also, since this is an age of the Land where Time has been weakened by the breaking of the Laws of Life and Death, an age that has lasted 3500 years, I would expect a larger number of "time-loose" characters than would be otherwise expected.


I still believe that the Insequent didn't exist as a species until the end of WGW. I think the apparent "ret-conning" is actually an effect of merging Covenant with the Arch of Time... but I guess we shall see.
_________________
<i>"Kupo?"</i>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
ussusimiel
Ghurning

Male
Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 5346

Thanks: 69
Thanked 66 Times in 63 Posts

Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
7687 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered1 Member of THOOLAH1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seppi2112 wrote:
I still believe that the Insequent didn't exist as a species until the end of WGW. I think the apparent "ret-conning" is actually an effect of merging Covenant with the Arch of Time... but I guess we shall see.

Hi Seppi2112, good to meet you!

That's one of the best explanations for the Insequent that I've seen suggested. It even fits with the 'out of time' aspect of their name. Good one!

u.
_________________
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg
Wormmark of the Weirdwurd


Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 155

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


1423 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something with them is definitely off.

Not all of them can manipulate time, but they all seem to know each other. They are mortal humans who are maybe slightly longer lived, like the Lords were, because of their studies, but they also seem timeless?

The Harrow can't go back and forth in time, yet knew the Vizard, the only mention of whom takes place around Berek or Damelon's time in office?

Maybe the unfettered mutated into the Insequent. Oh right, I said that already...HEY! Who is bringing us back onto the actual topic of this thread! Unacceptable!

It does seem like they were both, present throughout history, and non-existant before a certain time. He does love him some paradoxes.

Like they sprang up all together at the same time, and then spread out throughout time, like time traveling cockroaches?

Really makes you wonder how many other parts of the timeline the Insequent have altered, like the Theomach. Maybe in the original timeline there are no Insequent and Ak-Haru-Whatever was just a very old Haruchai friend of Berek's that was preserved in some manner similar to the Blood Guard oath?
_________________
I know what an analogy is! It's like a thought...with another thought's hat on...?

The thing most people don't remember in regards to the Haruchai, is that you NEVER EVER play poker with them!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bikebryan
Woodhelvennin


Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 68

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


261 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seppi2112 wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
The fact that they would destroy the Arch of Time seems like a sufficient means of preventing people from "screwing up time".

Also, since this is an age of the Land where Time has been weakened by the breaking of the Laws of Life and Death, an age that has lasted 3500 years, I would expect a larger number of "time-loose" characters than would be otherwise expected.


I still believe that the Insequent didn't exist as a species until the end of WGW. I think the apparent "ret-conning" is actually an effect of merging Covenant with the Arch of Time... but I guess we shall see.

It's hard to integrate the Haruchai's meeting the Insequent with that story. They met the Vizard before they marched into the Land and encountered Kevin. That was thousands of years before the events in WGW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seppi2112
Stupid Intern...

Male
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 227

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Los Angeles
340 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caamora1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bikebryan wrote:
It's hard to integrate the Haruchai's meeting the Insequent with that story. They met the Vizard before they marched into the Land and encountered Kevin. That was thousands of years before the events in WGW.


Negatory. The Haruchai of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles DIDN'T meet the Vizard. It's not until the 3rd Chronicles that we hear that story... which is completely consistent with what we know about SRD's rules for the Arch of time.

New events can occur so long as they BEND existing events instead of breaking them: the Haruchai travel West and then the Vizard sends them East... instead of the original timeline where they traveled West, found nothing, then turned around and went East toward the Land.

Again, not saying this is what happened, but it's consistent.
_________________
<i>"Kupo?"</i>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Vraith
LibTard, Mr. Reliable.


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 9814

Thanks: 17
Thanked 85 Times in 83 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
35122 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seppi2112 wrote:

Negatory. The Haruchai of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles DIDN'T meet the Vizard. It's not until the 3rd Chronicles that we hear that story...

It's true we didn't hear about it till the 3rd.
But the ground was laid in the second...the whole finding and becoming Guardian of the One Tree is the obvious one.
If I remember correctly, SRD said that he didn't know exactly, hadn't "created" the Insequent entirely yet when writing the second BUT he did know he needed something like them, intentionally built in hints and spaces and plots...all laid out and set up for us in the 2nd. Which definitely includes the Brinn/Har./Ak-Haru/Guardian story arc.

_________________
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
-------------------------------------------------------
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg
Wormmark of the Weirdwurd


Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 155

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


1423 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As soon as they revealed the Theomach's true name, I dug out my copy of The One Tree and checked, because I had the impression that Ak-Haru was just an old Haruchai.

He is described as something like 'what Brinn or Cail might look like after...' but it doesn't say specifically that he is a super old Haruchai. So he did definitely leave himself some openings.

I've seen terrible ret-conning a lot, and he ain't doin' it. I doubt he had every single aspect of the third series planned out, I don't think he claims to either, but he clearly had some ideas and left some things general and vague enough to insert explanations later.

That's some pretty damned impressive foresight for 30 years ago. Most fiction authors can't seem to remember what they were planning or thinking 2 or 3 years ago. And just bungle the shit out of their ret-conning, until some more-machine-than-man-logic-nerd's head explodes.
_________________
I know what an analogy is! It's like a thought...with another thought's hat on...?

The thing most people don't remember in regards to the Haruchai, is that you NEVER EVER play poker with them!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6677

Thanks: 38
Thanked 43 Times in 42 Posts


21598 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you guys know this but fron a related thread re the glossary of AATE the term ak haru ia a supreme Haruchai honorific, a state to be aspired to (but obviousely not limited to use for Haruchai only because) Kenaustin Ardenol is the true name of the Theomach. ie ak haru is a title.
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg
Wormmark of the Weirdwurd


Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 155

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


1423 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
I'm sure you guys know this but fron a related thread re the glossary of AATE the term ak haru ia a supreme Haruchai honorific, a state to be aspired to (but obviousely not limited to use for Haruchai only because) Kenaustin Ardenol is the true name of the Theomach. ie ak haru is a title.


No I know, I just didn't have my books handy and Theo has a weird name.

But at the same time, we only know that BECAUSE of the Theomach and the story of the Vizard. Maybe in timeline1 where Linden and everyone else did NOT time travel, Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol was just his full name, and he was a Haruchai.

This is why we don't mess with time travel and alternate realities, because anyone can come up with anything they want!

Time to write some Bannor/Stave fanfiction.
_________________
I know what an analogy is! It's like a thought...with another thought's hat on...?

The thing most people don't remember in regards to the Haruchai, is that you NEVER EVER play poker with them!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6677

Thanks: 38
Thanked 43 Times in 42 Posts


21598 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(quick off topic post re fan-fiction. I had the idea of writting a short story where a Haruchai turns up in a psychiatric hospital in our world/time transported I guess by a ceasura, and the job of the psychiatrist who has to evaluate him).
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy G.
Linden's Choice

Male
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 212

Thanks: 2
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts

Location: Livonia, MI
300 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg wrote:
Am I about to jump into a minefield by saying, I really wish he didn't involve time travel? The fetching of the staff of law was fine, but the stuff with Roger and the Croyel, Berek and uhh Kenaustan? Is just a damn quagmire.

Once you have a character travel back in time and affect an event, you just set off a chain reaction of possibilities and paradoxes that mortal minds, mine at least, really can't fully address.

Is there only two versions of history, the unaltered and the altered? Or by the time Linden alters history, has Linden already altered history before? I mean are they changing it or fulfilling whatever role they already had or were meant to have, with their meddling? Suddenly we're down 485490230 different alternate realities and while discussing them you pass out from lack of eating and die. But would you have died if the character didn't alter history, causing you to discuss it?! Or did you always die at that point because even what seem like alterations are actually already in the magic plan?!

I feel faint.

You can't change the past. "Whatever happened, happened." ~ Daniel Farady, LOST

Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg
Wormmark of the Weirdwurd


Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 155

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


1423 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
(quick off topic post re fan-fiction. I had the idea of writting a short story where a Haruchai turns up in a psychiatric hospital in our world/time transported I guess by a ceasura, and the job of the psychiatrist who has to evaluate him).


That would be interesting to see. I can imagine the diagnosis changing frequently, depending on how forth coming and honest the Haruchai is, with details of his homeland.

I could see aspergers, schizophrenia, and sociopathic...ness, being applied to them pretty readily, depending on what and how much they talk. Maybe Multiple personalities if they get too weird with their we-remember-every-single-moment-of-every-ancestor's-waking-life, thing.
_________________
I know what an analogy is! It's like a thought...with another thought's hat on...?

The thing most people don't remember in regards to the Haruchai, is that you NEVER EVER play poker with them!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> Against All Things Ending All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch