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King Joyse
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Lady Genni
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2002 3:14 pm    Post subject: King Joyse Reply with quote

I was reading under some other subjects various member's displeasure with King Joyse. I found this to be interesting. I felt that Joyse was completely justified for his actions. So here is what I pose...

What would you have done in his place? You have an unknown enemy. You have made yourself to strong to be attacked directly. You are the only one with access to the Congery and their strength. There is most likely a traitor in your midst allied with one of your old enemies.

Knowing the circumstances of Mordant's history and the story, how would you go about flushing out the traitor? If Joyse is a "bastard" for what he did to his loyal subjects, what would you have done differently?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2002 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For one thing I would never have treated Nyle as he originally did. I would have found some way 2 bring more help 2 the Cares, especially Perdon-when they were under attack. I have other reasons, but want 2 research a little more first... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah ditto .. its been a while since I last read MN and posted my pov in the posts you are referring to.

From my unreliable memory .. I objected to the way he treated the people who were loyal to him .. his family for one .. His feigned stupidity is the cause of his wife leaving him with their youngest daughter .. He refused to let anyone into his scheme .. and if you look at it .. it didnt really work anyway .. it totally backfired on him ..

He ultimately was forced to come out into the open and show his true colours anyway! He let Nyle down .. he let Lebbick down .. and he almost lost the fight through his inaction.

He could have flushed out the traitor .. not only by demonstrating that he was absolutely no threat to his enemy .. he could have tried to give some support to Lebbick and others who put their lives on the line .. Joyse was quite prepared to risk his life among others lives too .. His people even those who deserved more from him .. became expendable pawns in his senseless 'game' [of hop-board].

To post more substantively I will have to re-read MN .. I am just recalling my own personal impressions.

But I will .. and will return ..
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2002 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danlo wrote:
For one thing I would never have treated Nyle as he originally did.


It seems to me that he didn't treat Nyle badly, he just didn't aknowledge him in any special way. He also didn't go out of his way in his treatment of any of Geraden's other brothers. The only reason he "favored" Geraden was because he knew from the augery that he would need his help. Same with Artgel. He needed his swordmanship. Seems logical enough. Should he give "favor" to every son of every Lord?

Also if he contrived to help the cares then how would he have continued his charade? If the cares were stronger than they appeared then his enemy's wouldn't have felt secure enough to risk revealing themselves.

Remember with the Perdon, King Joyse expected him to pull his forces back to Orison. He didn't think the Perdon would try and take on Caldwal himself. That was the Perdon's decision. He could have been willing to have more faith in Joyse and pull back. Also Joyse was willing to offer Alend a alliance once he knew that the traitors were in league with Caldwal. I think that if the Lords of the Cares had trusted him more, even though he gave no outward sign of helping them, then they would have faired better.

To me King Joyse represents the issue of Faith. Do you have faith in your King even if he gives no outward sign of deserving that faith. Do you rely on your history and relationship with your King as a basis for your faith? Or does your faith rest on the current circumstances? No to be preachy but this is a classic issue that has faced mankind. Do you believe in a God you cannot see?

Using that analogy I find it interesting to see how the different characters of the story react to Joyse.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2002 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:

From my unreliable memory .. I objected to the way he treated the people who were loyal to him .. his family for one .. His feigned stupidity is the cause of his wife leaving him with their youngest daughter .. He refused to let anyone into his scheme .. and if you look at it .. it didnt really work anyway .. it totally backfired on him ..


So...would you leave your family and those you love in danger? Or get them as far from you as you could so that they would be safe? Again I find his actions are justified if not pretty. I guess it's because I buy into his strategy of making himself weak to draw the danger to himself. If you buy that logic then everything else is justified.

What alternate strategy would you suggest? Using the Conger and spies to root out the traitor and keep the Cares safe? (just for the record - that would make a less entertaining story) Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2002 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok - that last post was mine but some how posted as "Guest" -

Just an FYI!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2002 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lady G you seem eager to justify Joyse's actions and I can even understand why? You love MN and Joyse is a character you liked.

I liked him too .. however .. if he pushed his wife and youngest daughter away all as part of his master plan .. does that infer that Myste and Elega remained with him cos he cared less for them?

In my assessment Joyses master plan was a miserable failure anyway .. and what of Lebbick? How did his plan serve those he loved really?

Everyone felt abandoned or betrayed by him .. and I felt the most palpable example of this was poor Lebbick.

Maybe as you say there was no other way .. and as you also say .. SRD in giving us Joyses plan .. has given us discussion and thought fodder .. None of his characters are perfect .. and Joyse is true to the spirit of Donaldson's work.

If Joyse wasnt the irritatingly feigner of impotence he was .. the story wouldnt have been half as engaging.

To me it was tragic that he reduced his whole plan to a game of hop board .. tragic yet fundamentally profound also! .. Profoundly analogous to real life scenarios.

I really need to re-read MN .. I need to support my impressions with quotes and I cant do that without a re-read .. for that I apologise .. I will however endeavour to rectify this situation.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read all the book... so prehaps it would be wise to keep my keyboard untapped Smile However I am not wise. Cool

What's with the stupid "Hop board" game? Why doesn't he do anything? Is he planning something?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Joyce was justified for his actions. I also think that he had no need to make any apologies for his actions to any brother of Geradens, as he did nothing wrong to said brother.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(This is an old thread, but so what? That never stopped me before, so why should it, now?Big Grin )


King Joyse shouldn't have given Teresa any hint that he knew what he was really doing, because Teresa ended up giving that information to Master Eremis. And that led to Queen Madin's abduction by Alend mercenaries working for Cadwal. Queen

King Joyse should have explained to somebody else in Orison that he was going to rescue the Queen. Somebody else besides Havelock (who he needed to facilitate the pursuit), somebody more sane than Havelock.

Other than that, Joyse did what he had to do. And did it pretty darned well! King
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't Eremis ready to abduct her anyway?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Wasn't Eremis ready to abduct her anyway?

--A


Actually, no, Eremis had the same popular opinion that Joyse was an old dodderer, until Teresa visited Eremis in the dungeon (he was arrested after the translation of the champion) and revealed that Joyse knew exactly what he was doing. (That probably counts as Teresa's biggest blunder in the entire story!)

Joyse's reaction to Myste's disappearance is what clued Teresa in to the fact that the King was only pretending to be unaware of events.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although she'd revealed that to Eremis before the capture, so she must already have been pretty sure of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Although she'd revealed that to Eremis before the capture, so she must already have been pretty sure of it.

--A



She was. Teresa insisted on playing a game of exchanging answers with King Joyse before she's reveal where Myste went, and the King's answers revealed he was actively using strategy.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn Terisa. Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Well, by giving away King Joyse's alertness to Master Eremis, one can't deny that she made things worse before she made it all better! Loopy in the Sky with Diamonds Hit Head

The second Mordant's Need book, rather than being called A Man Rides Through, could have been called Teresa Cleans Up The Mess She's Made, but I guess that title just didn't have that "ring" to it that helps sell books!

Publishers know best, after all (I guess)! Huh? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
Avatar wrote:
Although she'd revealed that to Eremis before the capture, so she must already have been pretty sure of it.

--A



She was. Teresa insisted on playing a game of exchanging answers with King Joyse before she'd reveal where Myste went, and the King's answers revealed he was actively using strategy.


I should clarify! Teresa's dangerous game of exchanging questions and answers with the King gave her the information that the King was aware of goings-on and conscious of what he was doing, but in that scene she did not actually reveal where Myste went. She lied to Joyse and said Myste went to join the Queen.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Almost all of the first book is Terisa making a mess of things... Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I don't believe she's responsible for everything going wrong, but she certainly should have been suspicious enough of Eremis not to reveal what she learned of King Joyse in this scene:

In The Mirror of Her Dreams was wrote:
"My lady," he asked softly, "where is my daughter?"

So she was right. Her pulse beat faster. At last she had song somebody else wanted, something she could use. As long as she didn't betray Myste, this was her chance.

The prospect frightened her, but she clung to it with both hands. "Which daughter?" she returned despite the tremor in her voice. "You have several."

She expected indignation and anger--that was what she always expected--but King Joyse remained quiet. His expression didn't change. For a long moment, he studied her through the moisture in his eyes. Then he indicated the chair across the table from him. "My lady, will you be seated?"

At first she hesitated. Perhaps she would be stronger if she stayed on her feet. But his sadness was as persuasive as his smile. She went to the chair, pulled it away from the table to dissociate herself from hop-board, and sat down.

When she was seated, he said in the same soft, grieving tone, "My lady, my daughter Myste is gone. Where is she?'

Suddenly her tongue was so dry that she could hardly swallow. Like a frightened but stubborn child, she asked, "My lord King, shy did you let Castellan Lebbick arrest me?"

The room seemed uncomfortably warm. Again, the King's eyes gave a hint of steel. He held her gaze until she faltered and looked down. Then he breathed almost inaudibly, "My lady, do not play this game with me. It is more dangerous than you imagine."

For a few seconds while her heart hammered and her stomach knotted, she nearly backed down. She didn't have the strength to face him. Anybody was stronger than she was. As she had with Saddith, she felt that vulnerability and weakness were her only defense, her only weapon.

But backing down now wouldn't accomplish anything. The King would still want to know about his daughter. He would still demand answers. If she gave up what she wanted, she wouldn't make herself safer. And it would be more difficult for her to avoid betraying Myste.

And she was too angry to give up. Deliberately, she raised her eyes to the King's again. I don't have any choice. Geraden tried to take me back where I belong, but that mirror doesn't seem to work anymore. I have to play.

"Why did you let Castellan Lebbick arrest me?"

Something shifted in the background of King Joyse's expression, like clouds moving their shadows across a distant landscape. Without any definable change, his attention became sharper and more cautious.

"My lady"--his tone was caustic in an oddly impersonal way, as if he didn't mean it--"do you know who your friends are?'

She stared at him in surprise and bit her lip and didn't try to answer.

"Well, I don't either. Having you arrested would have been a good way to find out. It would have been very interesting to see who tried to help you, or communicate with you, or persuade me to let you go. But of course Geraden interfered. With his usual instinct for disaster. I already knew he was a friend of yours."

This reply startled her. It drew a different sketch of him--of the way his mind worked--than she was expecting: it seemed to imply that he was paying attention to what happened in Orison. "Wait a minute," she protested weakly. "Wait a minute. You mean you planned to have me arrested? It was just a ploy?"

"No, my lady." He waved one sore-knuckled finger at her. You aren't playing the game. It's my turn now. Where is my daughter?"

Terisa drew a sharp breath. For a moment, she considered trying to extort information from him without revealing anything herself. In spite of his age, hover he looked too strong fro that tactic. And it wouldn't be fair. He was Myste's father.

Carefully, she responded, "She came to see me yesterday afternoon. In my rooms. We talked for a long time."

He nodded. "I guessed that. But I don't understand it. What do you have that she wanted? What did she tell you?"

"No, my lord King. It's my turn now."

She had so many questions. Too many to remember them all at once. And she didn't want to waste an opportunity like this on the one she had blurted out a moment earlier. So she concentrated on the issue that had brought her to the King's suite--on Castellan Lebbick and his behavior.

"When I leave my rooms with someone--with Master Eremis, for example--my guards always want to know where I'm going. But w I leave with Geraden, nobody seems to care. Why is that?'

King Joyse snorted as if she had just made a particularly bad move. In the same, caustic, impersonal way, he said, "You should have figured that out for yourself. I already know Geraden is your friend."

Right. Of course. She really should have figured that out for herself. A sense of panic rose in her. She wasn't thinking quickly enough.

Impatiently, the King continued, "You were speaking of my daughter, my lady."

"Yes." She needed to be smarter. Sharper. She was tempted to turn to the Tor for help. But she could hear him breathing deeply, heavily, as though he were about to snore. Groping for inspiration, she asked, "Can more specific?'

"Certainly," he snapped. "Where is she?'

Fortunately, his tone brought back her anger. All right. If that was the way he wanted to play. "I don't actually know where she is." She made an attempt to sound sweet. "But you asked what I have that she wanted. There's an entrance to a secret passage in my wardrobe. She wanted to use it."

Again, he nodded. Apparently, Terisa was only confirming his own suspicions. "Why?"

Anger was a great help. She was being cruel to him--but only because she had been so badly treated herself. "My lord King," she said stiffly, "the first night I was here a man tried to kill me. When he was chased away, Castellan Lebbick started a search for him But you called it off." Despite her inexperience, she worked to match his tone. "Why?"

For an instant, King Joyse hesitated. The shadows shifted behind his eyes. Then he said trenchantly, "Because I didn't want him caught."

"What? Why not?"

"I didn't think he was stupid, so I didn't think he would lead Lebbick to his allies. And I didn't think he was a coward, so I didn't think he would tell me anything if Lebbick caught him. only way to learn anything about him was to leave him alone and wait for what he did next." His voice grew harsher, but it still sounded impersonal, as if his ire were calculated rather than real. "Are you satisfied, my lady?"

"Why did my daughter want to use a secret passage?"

"Because"--Terisa's anger made her stronger than she would believed possible--"she wanted leave Orison."

That struck him, hurt him. "Leave Orison?"

"She knew you would stop her if you could, so she used that passage to get down into the laborium. Then she sneaked out through the hole in the wall."

"Leave Orison?" he repeated. "Why?"

"No." She clenched her fists to make herself ignore his distress. "Why did you make me play hop-board against Prince Kragen? You did everything you could to force a war. I didn't enjoy being used like that."

So suddenly that she had no chance to defend herself, King Joyse surged out of his chair. As if he had never been weak or old in his life, he knotted his hands in front of her shirt and jerked her to her feet. "This is intolerable! She is my daughter!" His eyes ran as if he were weeping. "Her mother and one of her sisters left me. Her other sister holds me in contempt. Where did she go?"

Terisa should have broken then: she knew that about herself. She should have given up everything and betrayed Myste in simple fear. Her own anger should have evaporated.

But it didn't.

"Back to her mother," she retorted. Myste was her friend. "She wanted to be loyal. She wanted to help you. But when you insulted Prince Kragen like that, you broke her heart. She was raised to be the daughter of a king, not some petty tyrant who likes war and can't be bothered to defend his own people. She--"

Terisa stopped. His anguish stopped her. His sudden strength collapsed. He let go of her shirt. His hands dropped. His eyes squeezed shut, but tears went on spilling past his old eyelids. "If you lie to me--" he rasped far back in his throat. "If you dare lie to me--" It wasn't a threat: it was a plea. Fumbling behind him, he found the arm of his chair and braced himself on it while he sat down. His robe covered him as if he were lost inside it. "My daughter, what have I done to you?"

"Why did you do it?" Terisa asked so that his pain wouldn't tear the truth out of her. "Why did you make me play hop-board against Prince Kragen?"

"To test him," he replied like a man who had no idea what he was saying. "No other reason. How could I trust him? Alend has been Mordant's enemy for generations. He has a personal grudge against me. If his mission were honorable, he would refuse to play. He would have no reason to brook that insult to the Alend Monarch. But if he intended treachery he would acquiesce because he could not risk my displeasure--risk expulsion from Orison before his work was done." He covered his face with his hands. "Oh, my daughter."

So it was true. He knew what he was doing, what was happening around him. The thought seemed to chill her blood. Where had she gotten the idea that it was too warm in this room? She wanted to shiver violently. Ignorance or senility had nothing to do with it.

He was intentionally destroying Mordant.

And yet his distress swept her anger away. She could fear him, but she couldn't be angry at him. "I'm sorry," she said, trying to be kind. "I guess this game is a stalemate too."

Roughly, he pulled down his hands. They shook as he clasped them together in his lap. He didn't look at her. Quietly and distinctly, he said, "My lady, I suggest you give the matter more consideration before you again attempt to end a stalemate by tilting the board." Then he indicated the door with a twitch of his hand, dismissing her.

She turned to leave as if she were fleeing.

The Tor was awake. He watched the King with a look that resembled hunger. As she passed his chair, he gave her a firm nod of approval.

She had already closed the door behind her before it occurred to her to wonder how King Joyse had been able to guess that Myste had come to her for help.


But she DID reveal that King Joyse was still capable of strategizing, so Eremis knew he'd have to have Queen Madin abducted to take Joyse out of the picture, keep him distracted.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion of her has been made clear in the past. Very Happy

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