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Could Troy have convinced Covenant, if he wasn't so angry?
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Could Troy have convinced Covenant, if he wasn't so angry? Reply with quote

I want to say he could have, but Covenant is sooooooooooooo determined to not believe, which is why Lena gets raped to begin with. It is really starting to seem like TC is unbelieving 1% from self preservation and 99% for spite. He only disbelieves because he forces himself to, conciously it seems, which you would think would defeat the purpose. I don't think he even 'deep down knows the land is real' I think he knows on the surface, with every waking moment that it is real. It is hard not to follow that up with the word coward, if true.

Then again, he is right. Real or not real, win or lose, he is gonna end up back on normal Earth, and if he gets too used to working nerves, and power, and not being helpless, he will probably die pretty quick once he gets back? Still, he could probably stand to be a little more helpful. I guess that is why he is so anti-judgemental and helpful in the second and third series, because he knows he took it too far in the first?

Ahem, but anyways, Troy. Oh I did have a point with all that...no matter how concretely and perfectly Troy proves to Covenant that the land is real, Covenant will never permit himself to admit it, even though he knows it is true. In Essence TC is the original internet poster.

But still, if Troy wasn't so quick to anger, he could probably conclusively prove it to the point where we can say for sure, ok now TC is just in denial.

Troy worked for the military, Covenant did not. Their lives are not really similar at all, other than being from the same Earth. Troy could have discussed things about the military structure/life/etc that Covenant wouldn't know. Now, that wouldn't prove anything at the time, as if Troy were fake he could just be making things up entirely and TC would never know. But when he gets back to Earth he could check things out and see if they turn out true.

It wouldn't really have to be major things, there are plenty of tiny nuances and tidbits you don't really know unless you are in that lifestyle. Like most lifestyles.
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC and Hile Troy have two completely different mindsets. Where TC refuses to embrace the reality of the Land because it threatens his hold on sanity after he wakes up, Hile Troy embraces the gifts the Land gives him because he doesn't think he has anything to wake back up to.

But I would argue that it is a good thing that Hile does not convince TC that the Land is real. Covenant needed to grow into his love for the Land in order to succeed. Hile Troy waded into it with open arms. He let the Land build him up, and look where it got him; he easily falls into despair and causes untold damage before finally redeeming himself in the end.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bull.

Troy wasn't allowed to succeed to prove that TC was right.

Troy was created to fail. even though he was right in trying.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually have pondered/evolved myself into the the view that Troy didn't fail.
Things didn't go as planned.
So what? They almost never do, especially in something so large [and despite the "Troy's a stupid General" thread, or whatever it's called].
The cost was huge [but I doubt there's any way anyone could have made it less...only the time/place could have changed].

But on topic: I don't think he could have swayed TC.
But, if he had...that would have been terrible for TC, I think. It probably would have successfully destroyed him...to total despair, or uncontrollable rage...neither of which would have been good for the final showdown.

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy's the Han Solo. Sure TC has to slip through the cracks and take out the Big Bad, save the Land... but someone has to rally the troops back home and make sure there are survivors to live in the land that was saved. Cool

OK on second thought, that's Mhorham. Maybe he's more of a... Lando? Screws up at first, but redeems himself in the end?

Anyhoo... I think Troy couldn't have convinced TC no matter what, simply because he only interacts with him in the Land. He views him as just another threat. Even after his dealings with Troy, TC still refuses Mhoram to save a girl in the "real world".
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never even thought that Troy did fail. How did he? Against massively overwhelming odds he engineered a situation where the opposing army was killed to a man, their leader slain and the bulk of his own army lived to fight another day. Where ever was the failure in that!

No in answer to the post - Troy could never have covinces TC, angry or otherwise. (He couldn't even convince us the reader let alone TC). TC's disbelief was a mechanism for preserving his own sanity and he (rightly) believed that a mind sick enough to conjour up the Land, Foul and all it's inhabitants and lures of health would have no problem in throwing in the joker of having a man from his own world to further muddie the waters.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC was a rapist, a coward, a fraud, a liar.

and to counterpoint that we have someone in Hile Troy who fights back, beats the enemy and sacrifices himself to preserve his adopted people.

all the while TC bitches and moans about everything.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Could Troy have convinced Covenant, if he wasn't so angr Reply with quote

Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg wrote:
I don't think he even 'deep down knows the land is real' I think he knows on the surface, with every waking moment that it is real.


That's precisely what makes the hallucination so dangerous. If Covenant didn't believe the Land was real in his surface thoughts, he wouldn't need to remind himself that it is a dangerous hallucination.

If I have a dream that I'm spiderman, it's just a dream - I'm not in danger of trying to climb a tall building. If I have a dream that someone broke into my house, I need to remind myself it is a dream, or I might call 911.

Look at the movie inception for another example. The heroes carry totems because the dreams are so realistic and convincing that they believe they are real. That's what happened to TC. The dream is so convincing and real that if he doesn't actively resist its hallucination he'll fall into its trap.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
I actually have pondered/evolved myself into the the view that Troy didn't fail.
Things didn't go as planned.
So what? They almost never do, especially in something so large [and despite the "Troy's a stupid General" thread, or whatever it's called].
The cost was huge [but I doubt there's any way anyone could have made it less...only the time/place could have changed].

Troy didn't fail, but his was a classic Pyrrhic victory.

Vraith wrote:
But on topic: I don't think he could have swayed TC.
But, if he had...that would have been terrible for TC, I think. It probably would have successfully destroyed him...to total despair, or uncontrollable rage...neither of which would have been good for the final showdown.

In plot terms there is no way that Troy could have convinced TC. Troy behaves as we'd expect a normal 'hero' to act. TC behaves like the 'Ironic mode' hero that he has been cast as by SRD. For Troy to have convinced TC it would have basically required SRD to change his 'mode of hero' horses in mid-series which would have undermined the whole basis of the story. (Interestingly, Troy moves up the scale to 'Mythic hero' in the 2nd Chrons (while TC moves up to 'normal' hero), and finally at the end of the 2nd Chrons TC becomes a 'Mythic hero'.)

u.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
TC was a rapist, a coward, a fraud, a liar.

and to counterpoint that we have someone in Hile Troy who fights back, beats the enemy and sacrifices himself to preserve his adopted people.

all the while TC bitches and moans about everything.

Best. Description. Of. TC. Yet. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My post title kind of contradicts my point. I don't think Troy could ever have convinced TC either, because TC won't, CAN'T allow himself to be convinced (at least that early), right or wrong, he is afraid of the consequences.

But my thinking was he could prove it to TC and the readers, in the same way someone can prove something on the internet. In the end, TC, like the average internet poster, will NEVER allow themselves to be convinced, even in the face of overwhelming proof and indisputable arguments. However, if Troy did focus on things that Covenant could not know, like *ANYTHING* involving the military, then Covenant's argument that Troy was created by his own mind, will immediately and totally die. Covenant would still not admit it, but it would be clear to everyone at that point, that TC is a 14 year old girl posting on a Twilight forum about Jacob Vs Edward.

As to Troy failing in war or not, I am re-reading IEW now and they are just marching out of Revelstone, so I can't say but...I seem to recall the enemy army is utterly destroyed to a man(thing?) and a large portion if not the bulk of his own army survives.

You could argue that Caerroil Wildwood or Mhoram salvaged Troy's failure, but in the end Troy paid the price for the forestal's help, so I think we would be splitting hairs as to who saved who.

Let's see if my opinion changes after I finish IEW again =p
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy G. wrote:
sgt.null wrote:
TC was a rapist, a coward, a fraud, a liar.

and to counterpoint that we have someone in Hile Troy who fights back, beats the enemy and sacrifices himself to preserve his adopted people.

all the while TC bitches and moans about everything.

Best. Description. Of. TC. Yet. Laughing


thanks. I know I am in the minority here. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Billy G. wrote:
sgt.null wrote:
TC was a rapist, a coward, a fraud, a liar.

and to counterpoint that we have someone in Hile Troy who fights back, beats the enemy and sacrifices himself to preserve his adopted people.

all the while TC bitches and moans about everything.

Best. Description. Of. TC. Yet. Laughing


thanks. I know I am in the minority here. Big Grin


I don't know about being in the minority...he IS those things.
But he learns, changes, he gets better. Probably the main reason I like him so much in the end is because he never says anything like:
"I made up for the bad things."
He does the opposite...he WANTS people [and I think SRD wants the reader] to remember the bad, to NOT let him off the hook for it.
Yes, there are reasons and causes for what he was/did...but those are never used/transformed into excuses or justifications.
His rape remains evil/inexcusable/unjustifiable no matter what "good" results from it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC was a rapist. But at what point was he a coward, a fraud and a liar. I've read the 1st Chrons more times than any other and they remain my favorite. I do not recognise this portrayal of a man that I discern to be straining, against all odds, to hold himself together in the extremity of the most impossible and intolerable situation he could ever find himself in. What do people expect - for him instantly to become Lancelot on a white charger and go pitching in to save the world. I think SRD was trying to create something a bit more realistic than that.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
I never even thought that Troy did fail. How did he?


Well on his own terms he failed by planning poorly and setting up his army for decimation. Making the best of a bad situation was a good outcome all things considered, but Art of War and all....
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No - Troy's only miscalculation was the sheer size of Fouls army. Beyond that his plan was sound. Clearly his intel in this respect was was either faulty or indeed non-existant, in which case his best estimate was obviousely in line with the thinking of Quan (his 2nd in command IIRC). When the mis-calculation became known he panicked - and then got it together, pulled the fat from the fire and achieved the near impossible. Not a fail in my book.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't some famous general or leader say something like 'the most brilliant battle plan is only effective until the first blood is spilled'? (or shot is fired, or something).

I think that's basically true. Troy had a good plan based on what he knew, what he knew turned out to be wrong, but he salvaged it and turned it into a victory, and personally paid the price for his 'failure' which could be equally laid at the feet of the Ramen and Blood Guard, who he had scouting for him?

I mean Rue takes almost an extra week to get to Revelstone, which whatever, Troy shouldn't expect a person to get there in 15 days just because a Ramen on paper can get there in 15 days. But she also failed to even attempt counting the army's size.

I assume he had other people scouting before Rue also? Or is that what Mhoram was trying to do when he battled the ur-vile raver?

Plus what someone else said =p the main character in anything is not never going to not dis-be the one who un-solves the final conflict. I mean, win or lose may change depending on how emo or edgy the author is trying to be, but they are never going to have for example, Troy and Mhoram win the war and kill the despiser himself, while Covenant is off incesting Elena.

Actually, if I ever became a film director, I want to make a horror movie that is mostly suspense, where they are running and being chased forever and ever and scary scary suspense, and then it turns out the killer, while chasing them, fucked with the wrong person, and got shot in the face on the street =p or something along those lines. And has been dead since like halfway into the movie! Ahem.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg wrote:
Didn't some famous general or leader say something like 'the most brilliant battle plan is only effective until the first blood is spilled'? (or shot is fired, or something).

I think that's basically true.

It is true. The variation you cite sounds like Helmuth something or other...Prussian?...important in trying to unify Germany at the same time U.S. was fighting civil war if I recall time correctly.
But the idea behind it has been part of the best military thinking as long as we've had big armies and people to write stuff down...along with "The map is not the territory..." which came from some philosopher in that form not so long ago [and there're some interesting arguments/implications about it] but is really a lot older.

Somewhat [but only somewhat] closer to topic: sometimes I think that the entirety of Troy and this battle rose out of SRD suddenly thinking "OH! What if there's a REAL hero, and TC tries to give away his ring!"

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
TC was a rapist. But at what point was he a coward, a fraud and a liar.


coward = failing to use the power he had.

fraud = he let everybody he ever knew. he wasn't a man at all.

liar = lied to everyone claiming he had no power.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
peter wrote:
TC was a rapist. But at what point was he a coward, a fraud and a liar.


coward = failing to use the power he had.

fraud = he let everybody he ever knew. he wasn't a man at all.

liar = lied to everyone claiming he had no power.

I maintain my agreement that he was, at times, all of the things you mentioned.

I withdraw my agreement of particulars and meaning because that list is bogus.
That kind of list makes me wonder if we read the same books!

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