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The Purity of Service; How did the Haruchai lose it.

 
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peter
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: The Purity of Service; How did the Haruchai lose it. Reply with quote

(I post this thread here because it pertains to the change in the Haruchai that occurs between our leaving them at the end of the 2nd Chrons and their appearence in the 3rd as 'The Masters'. In respect to those of us who haven't read an ARC could I ask that those of us who have to take special care if making points that are dependant upon knowledge that can only be 'got' from TLD. Thanks Guys).

I'm just reading Milton's Paradise Lost and of course one of the most noteable quotes occurs early in Book I when Satan say's "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven". This got me to thinking of the Haruchai, who in both the first and second Chrons not only truly understood the value of servive (they always reminded me of the 47 Ronin) maintained, but also the loss of honour that failure of service entailed. Never once was there ever the sugestion that once their service was proffered, they would themselves want to take up the burden (and responsibility) of descision making. The essence of the Bloodguard was pure unadulterated (and uncompromising) service. Then along comes TC and in what he thought was a benevolent gesture decided to give the H something to serve that for once would not let them down - so he gave them Revelstone. That the Giant-wrought eddifice would repay their steadfastness with a mirrored reliability of it's own was never in question - but somehow even that relationship became distorted and the Haruchai we seeemerging as the Masters in the 3rd Chrons seem to have lost entierly that ethos, that motivating spirit of service without (I was going to say judgement, but that is wrong - the H were always capable of judgement, they just kept their judgements to themselves)...without ambition to rule thrown in. [Monarchs always 'serve' their country - this was not the H's type of service untill series 3].

What was it that changed in them? These were a people whose collective knowledge of the past was unequeled, whose respect for their forefathers was held, generation to generation in the highest awe and yet they metamorphosed from their ideals to the point where even Brin (was it?) was aghast at what they had become. What does this tell us about them, about how they changed and about the value of service compared to Mastery.

(Thought; was Staves display of emotion at his son's death even related in a way to to some quintessential change deep within the Haruchai motivating spirit.)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe their service had already been corrupted by the time of the first Chronicles. Not by the Illearth Stone incident, but even before. When they returned to the land to find the New Lords and opted to continue with their Vow.

They had already made the decision protect the Lords from themselves.

Although they may not have taken an active role in preventing the Lords from attaining lore, they certainly didn't volunteer information which they couldn't help but to have known. They were serving Kevin when he created and hid the Wards, for crying out loud. They probably even knew all seven of the Words of Power. Yet they remained silent.

It was only with the direct confrontation of TC that Bannor revealed that they indeed had even an inkling of Amok's nature.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post IrrationalSanity. Was it then, this reticence (both of word and action) that the Haruchai lost in the intervening period between Chrons 2 and 3. They were not 'backward in coming forward' in respect of directing the course of events on the basis of their past knowledge by the time we meet them in Chrons 3. Yes their action was still in the mode of refusing rather than promoting knowledge - but it had become much more active in it's form. I maintain that something fundamental has changed for them that we are not (yet) party to.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe having their people slaughtered year after year by the Clave made the Haruchai become intolerant of trusting the people of the Land with lore. Once Anele lost the Staff of Law, they decided to step in and be Masters rather than trust the Land's people to make their own discoveries and decisions.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin in a way did the same thing. Yes, the Lore was available - but only in very restricted measures and after much study. Perhaps the H just decided to take his lead a step further and eliminate Lore [or at least its use] from the land altogether. Kevin and the H are tied together with bonds than run very, very deep.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Post
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure the Haruchai ever lost it.
They simply misinterpreted it from the beginning...and by beginning I mean at least from the moment they first left the mountains, and perhaps even before...and at every stage the error was compounded.

I'd say that the reason the Vow took the form it did...the resulting unnaturalness of their lives...is because power follows passion, and they were already far down the road of mistaken commitments/passion at the moment they uttered it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that view of the H V. Oddly they are the most difficult grouping of the Chrons to come to terms with, but [I think] the one that people most empathise [or perhaps sympathise is a better word] with. I hate the idea that even at their worst, their 'purity of service' was compromised - it introduces a level of 'mendacity' to their actions in the 3rd Chrons which is not at all [again I think] what was intended.

Here's a question - do we know if SRD 'liked' the Haruchai [and by extension the Bloodguard] or not. He seemed to need to spend three series serially [ Rolling Eyes ] crushing and humiliating them - and yes, he did appear to 'redeem' them at the end - but only by making them into 'that which they were not'.
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'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter (USSM) wrote:

Here's a question - do we know if SRD 'liked' the Haruchai [and by extension the Bloodguard] or not. He seemed to need to spend three series serially [ Rolling Eyes ] crushing and humiliating them - and yes, he did appear to 'redeem' them at the end - but only by making them into 'that which they were not'.


I'm pretty sure he said he likes them a lot [I bet WF pops up with a quote on it. Wink ]
Personally, I'd guess he flat-out loves them.
I'd argue that making them what they were not doesn't mean altering their nature, it means correcting their understanding.
One is extinction, the other evolution.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
I'm pretty sure he said he likes them a lot [I bet WF pops up with a quote on it. Wink ]


Hide

Well ...

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:
I don't have favorite races/cultures/creatures/whatever. That's too generic. I have favorite characters. But I hasten to say--as I've often said before--that my favorites change from day to day and situation to situation.

However, I suspect the results clearly indicate that I have found the Haruchai to be more creatively, well, fecund than anyone else. Even when compared to the Giants, the Haruchai have been a more constant presence in the overall story, and have supplied me with more individual characters.

(10/02/2005)


- - - - - - - - -

I don't think that the Haruchai "went wrong" at any specific point. It's more like they gradually veered more and more off course. Remember, we have 3500 years between glimpses of them.

From the beginning, they were "outcome-oriented". This created a natural progression that led to "no Earthpower permitted". The reason for that is, ultimately, Kevin's Desecration, as the book explains.

So maybe you can say that Kevin's Desecration was the moment, because it made them feel that they had failed in their service somehow, and it made them suspect Earthpower as a rule.

But their encounter with the Vizard was equally important.

But from the beginning they were prideful, and desired to prove their worth, and assumed that worth was prowess and service and deeds. Which means they were off track from the get go.

However, I would defend the Haruchai against accusations of "desiring to rule". They really tried to rule as little as possible. And they served the people of the Land routinely. The only sovereignty that they claimed was to rule over the use of Earthpower.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
, I would defend the Haruchai against accusations of "desiring to rule". They really tried to rule as little as possible.


Agreed, they didn't desire to rule. But they did, by force, strip the peoples of freedom, of knowledge, of beauty, of identity...all in the name of "protecting" them from error.
In many ways, in a failed attempt to prevent them falling to evil, they barred them from knowing good.

It could be argued that the initial thing that led them down the path they traveled is just an extreme version of "big boys don't cry."

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