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TLD First Impressions
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really liked the common theme of the Last Chronicles in that Linden really cares for Jeremiah, and will do anything to save him. It really shows the beauty of a mother's love for her child.

Converse with Thomas, he cares somewhat for Elena, but has given up on long-ignored Roger a long time ago. Big character flaw for Our Hero. And I dont think that absorbing Lord Foul is more to make Thomas more child-friendly.

Linden really gets her heart's desire, and how come a long way since The Wounded Land. She's married to a demi-god like TC, Jeremiah is a constructor, and she no longer hates herself.

Basically Linden chose everything correctly in her last journey in The Land. The only 'good' casualties were The Ardent, Anele, Liand, a couple of giants, a few Haruchai, and a few others. I mean, what a fantastic conclusion of events. The Elohim love Linden, the Insequent love Linden -- everybody loves Linden!

Plus, Linden doesnt have to worry about the ex-wife coming around and (messing) things up. The ex-wife's husband did the 'dirty work' himself.

Linden was the big winner.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger being out of the picture was entirely Joan's fault. His flawed mentality and cruel nature is also because of her--her insanity was communicated to him like a disease.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Roger being out of the picture was entirely Joan's fault. His flawed mentality and cruel nature is also because of her--her insanity was communicated to him like a disease.


yea...but you don't go far enough. Not like a disease. He didn't just CATCH it from her, she INFLICTED it upon him. [[damn it, I'm starting to break my own rule on TLD maybe]]...

From some angles, this can be seen as the "Last"...and ultimate...unresolved/necessary paradox of the entire Chron's.
I could easily go on with sub-categories/examples/conflicts/unanswered questions/unquestioned answers...but the simple [only analogically and incompletely adequate] form is the innate complexifying of:
You are RESPONSIBLE even if/when you are NOT GUILTY.
You are GUILTY even if/when you are NOT RESPONSIBLE.
That's at the level of deeds/doings/beings.
Are the reversals of those ALSO so??
And that's the easy part, let's not get into: forgiveness/redemption.
They are incompatible.
They mutually annihilate.
But "moral" beings cannot seem to manage themselves without both.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:

You are RESPONSIBLE even if/when you are NOT GUILTY.
You are GUILTY even if/when you are NOT RESPONSIBLE.


Sorry for the cutting down of your post Vraith, but that part gets right to the heart of what drives me nuts in all three Chronicles. Both Linden and Covenant are guilty of it, and expound on it ad nauseum throughout all of the books.

I like the books (even the Last Chrons Shocked ) but that part of them drove me insane. Well, that and Linden's habit of not hearing what people are telling her until almost too late.

Anyway, this is supposed to be about impressions of TLD, so here goes ... I listened to it on audiobook so that may colour some of my impressions ...

Overall I liked it.

Covenant absorbing Foul made sense, though I'm not sure how good a long term solution that really is.

Was there really a point to having Kastanessen there at all? He seemed to be kind of ... unnecessary.

I'm unclear on the limits of the power that can be drawn from the ring by a non-rightful wielder as compared to a rightful wielder.

There seemed to be a lot of EPI-How does this event relate to my self-worth and my feelings of inadequacy-C MOMENT skip ahead skip ahead EPIC M-OMG why do these things keep happening I can't think of anything to do except what I'm doing but that must be wrong because I'm not a hero-OMENT skip ahead skip ahead IMPORTANT DEED skip ahead EPIC MO-let's think about how I feel about this for 6 pages while Skurj are attacking-MENT.

I would have liked to know how the Power Trio put the world back together after it had been eaten. Wait for it to come out the other end?

Why were the Insequent even there? Did they serve a purpose, aside from The Mahdoubt sending Linden back to the future and the Ardent transporting them to a barren wasteland? Oh yeah, there was the Harrow, who really died pointlessly.

That's about it for now.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gosh - why is everyone so down on Joan. She is a victim. A victim of the conflicting demands of her husbands illness and her fear for her son; a victim of Fouls machinations to draw her into the mess that is TC's involvement with the Land; a victim of Roger's, Fouls and the Ravers need to tourture her with her failure and madness to extract yet more pain in the name of their cause and finally a victim of the [less than noble] need for TC to be rid of her [no matter what justifications he uses to salve his consience]. In my opinion Joan is the biggest victim of the entire Chrons - including Lena! It is a major failing of the finale that SRD was not able to afford her even a scrap of dignity in her inevitable demise. Ultimately she is SRD's victim more than all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joan could have chosen to stay when Covenant contracted leprosy. "In sickness and in health" and all that jazz. Instead, she chose to leave, to abandon him. She viewed his leprosy as a violation of the comfortable little world with which she had surrounded herself--and it was--but she chose to let the disease be more important than anything else. The betrayal was hers, not his.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
In my opinion Joan is the biggest victim of the entire Chrons - including Lena! It is a major failing of the finale that SRD was not able to afford her even a scrap of dignity in her inevitable demise. Ultimately she is SRD's victim more than all.


In some ways, I agree on the first part. I mean, real life: we almost know [research is ongoing] that many, likely most, child abusers are victims first. I feel unlimited sympathy, even empathy, for them right up until they claim their first victim. Even then, some sympathy continues...but judgement begins, and most of the sympathy goes to their victims.

OTOH: I thought Joan's ending was AMAZING. It was almost the definition of dignified. It was beautiful, too. [as well as sad/tragic]. Seriously, after all she'd been through, she died unencumbered by all the pain, guilt, fear, loathing of self and others...free and in joy and restored to her BEST self.
It's easily in my top 20 list of moments in the Chron's Entire...probably in the top 10 if I actually made such a list.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Gosh - why is everyone so down on Joan. She is a victim.

I'm not sure that I agree with you, peter. I have often thought about how Joan is described in LFB, and about how she behaved. She is a breaker of horses, she is the picture of self-possession in how she orders TC about and yet when it comes to the crunch she is found to be hollow at the centre. Her maiden name, 'Macht', is the German word for make/do. She is a doer, yet what she does is abandon the person she is supposed to love. If she is a victim she is a victim of her strength, she acts/does and then later realises that she acted wrongly. I know that she tries to contact TC and that falls through, but surely one effort hardly counts for a lot.

I agree that she is probably the most put upon character by the author, but IMO, within the story if Joan is a victim, she is a victim of Despite (her own self-hatred). For me this is not comparable at all to Lena, who is a victim of TCs violence, not any flaw within herself.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Joan could have chosen to stay when Covenant contracted leprosy. "In sickness and in health" and all that jazz. Instead, she chose to leave, to abandon him. She viewed his leprosy as a violation of the comfortable little world with which she had surrounded herself--and it was--but she chose to let the disease be more important than anything else. The betrayal was hers, not his.


Does nobody remember her anguished cry to TC [somewhere in the first Chrons I think] "Children can catch it" [or words to that effect]. She is driven to distraction and the edge of madness by the guilt of the decision forced on her and then is subsequently abused both physically and mentally by all and everyone untill the final fall of the dagger that takes her benighted life. If this is dignity then spare me it.......
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember ending the first Chronicles and being in a big fat hurry to move on to the second Chronicles, but also being sad that the fist part was done. Then when I got into the second series I remember being totally overwhelmed emotionally. The Land had changed so much, it was in such a bad way. I couldn't put the whole series down, I HAD to see what comes next, where this all goes. When it ended at the end of White Gold Wielder I was totally emotionally hurled around. I was extremely sad to see TC dead, I was extremely sad to see TC and LA never got a real chance to get together. And mostly to have the story over was crushing. It had been the literary adventure of my life. And now it's over and I'm really sad about that.

Fast forward to the end of The Last Dark. I put it down and thought about it. I didn't really feel much. I just thought about how it all ended. For me the emotional impact I had had in the other series just wasn't there. So I re-read The Last Dark thinking I had missed something. (I had, a lot of minutiae just got passed over.) But still there wasn't the emotional impact I had hoped for. And I really did hope for it being that it was there in spades all through the first and second chronicles. Maybe I'm older and more jaded (I am.) Maybe my hopes for this series were way too high (they were.) I can't really explain it but, as well written as it was, and as many great moments as there were, I simply just feel like, meh.

Still, on the strength of the first two chronicles, I would have no problem recommending the series to anyone. And on the strength of the first two chronicles this is still the literary adventure of my life. Thus concludes my first impression of The Last Dark, for whatever it's worth.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Fnortner.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely coined the way I feel Fnortner, to a tee!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello!

It's been years since I last visited.

So, my thoughts on the last chronicles - by and large, a set too far. Overall, just not very good at all. Far too much about Linden, and Runes was really pretty dire - almost a whole book full of here introspection and procrastination.

I thought the Last Dark was OK, but I skipped pages and pages of basically Linden saying "should I do this? no, maybe I shouldn't. No, I will, no, mayeb not. Aah, sod it I will. There, done it"

As for the end of the book - poor, very poor. Talk about ghost in the machine. All hell breaks loose in Kiril Threndor, and all of a sudden, skip forward a bit, oh, we've remade everything, and all is great in the world, the worm's gone, even the people have been reborn.

THAT, was frankly rubbish.

To read the last dark, i broke off from reading Steven Erikson's malazan epoch, and just found the last dark and SRD's writing very thin.

Huge disappointment. TC goes out with a frustrating whimper.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see you, hamako!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing Hamoko you won't be up for the chapter dissections? Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres my first impression of TC dropping out of the Arch of Time and into Andelain.....AAAAAaaaaaAAAAAAA!..What The !!!!!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilding wrote:

Quote:
Why were the Insequent even there? Did they serve a purpose, aside from The Mahdoubt sending Linden back to the future and the Ardent transporting them to a barren wasteland? Oh yeah, there was the Harrow, who really died pointlessly.


Here is how I think the Insequent work in the Land. 
 
The Insequent are against the Elohim because the Elohim purport to be guardians over the earth, and subordinate all things to themselves and that purpose (protection against the Worm, Durances, etc).  Their motivation in TCofTC can be seen as selfish, since THEY must be preserved, since a main way to unravel the Arch is to destroy the Elohim (ie: Worm eating Stars).  There must be a power to counterbalance this egotistical answer, and that is the Insequent, imho.  They are a little like the dwarves answer to the elves in TLOTR to me.  The elves are sort of the earth’s caretakers, high minded and cocky, whereas the dwarves have to get their hands dirty, laboring with great skill to their own purposes, certainly selfish and stiff in demeanor, and yet appreciative of the greater beauty and value of the world.
 
The Harrow wants the ring to merge with the staff so he can trap the Worm (via finding Jerry in order to use his talents).   He could have found Jerry without making his bargain with Linden.  The Insequent are made for what they are, and the Harrow’s purpose was in understanding the ur-Viles and their lore, and this was absolutely necessary to find Jerry in the Lost Deep.  To go beyond that, to ensure the freeing of Jerry and the building of a grand construct against the Worm, was not his true purpose.  He was mistaken in believing the ring and staff could be used that way, but at least his motives were honorable.   The Harrow’s intentiond risked the Elohim, since the Harrow wants to make Jerry trap the Worm, and this risks the Elohim’s very existence.  This is why Esmer and Roger, etc., all showed up in the Lost Deep and the Harrow was killed.
 
But if the Elohim block everything, then the risk is that the Land won’t find its purpose, it won’t be what it is supposed to be, and the Elohim don’t really care, they just want to avoid the risk it will take to try and save it.  They want to simply preserve it at whatever state it’s in, and that’s not enough, not fair to the people of the Land.  The Insequent want to preserve the Land’s survival for the sake of the Land, whereas the Elohim want to preserve it for the sake of themselves.
 
All that being said, I agree that it is a little convenient to insert these characters into TLCs.  Maybe the breach of the laws of life and death, and the creation of caesures, etc., enabled humans to interact with Insequent.  Or maybe they were always there, but simply chose to manifest themselves and their powers at this climactic stage of the Land.  After all, the Mahdoubt served in Revelstone without anybody being aware of who or what she really was. 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

berk peter wrote:
I'm guessing Hamoko you won't be up for the chapter dissections? Smile


well it would be pretty repetitive, it would go something like this:

Linden can't make her mind up what to do. She moans and despairs a bit.

TC staggers round all weak and is generally not very good at anything.

A few things appear out of the blue to explain sudden revelations that allow the plot to be tied up.

Bit of time travelling, the worry of being stuck in the past, then some lame explanation of getting back to proper timeline - knitting a patchwork quilt, Wildwood doing "something". COME ON!

Kevins Dirt, that got on my pip a bit. Didn't buy that, TC of old could have dealt with that I reckon.

Kastenessen, and how he just capitulated! Turns our all he needed was a big hug. REALLY?! RUBBISH!!

Found the four books very exasperating. They felt a bit flimsy to me, as if SRD was trying to throw everything he could think of into them and then struggled to tie them all together in some sort of credible storyline.

I thought the 2nd and 3rd books were the better, but Runes was appallingly boring and TLD was lacklustre, especially when you compare to WGW and TPTP.

LIke I mentioned, I've just completed the Malazan Books of The Fallen and they are in a different league entirely in just about every way. The contrast was stark when I was reading TLD and Dust of Dreams side by side. TLD was a chore, something I had to do in respect of what I hold as a great bit of fantasy (TC) Eriskon's books are something that has gripped me like noting else, hugely rich and involving.

Soz SRD!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm. Having just done the same (read Toll the Hounds and bits of Dust of Dreams alongside TLD) I cannot concur. SRD writes about a character-driven universe, SE about...universe-driven. In my opinion, they're two diverse styles.

I agree that Kastenessen would have needed more stage, but as a soft-cored brony, I have problems neither with a villain craving for a hug nor the Equestria-ish ending. Razz

Many despise Runes initially, but it matures on a 2nd reading. Recommended. Onions, onions...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Just finished The Lost Deep Reply with quote

Hello All,

New to the forum. Been a Donaldson fan since high school.

Just finished The Lost Deep. I thought the ending predictable in a way. The story was good, but I miss the character's return to our world at the end of the two other series.

I won't say it's the best of the three series, but it was still a good read.

I'm dying to see what Donaldson cooks up next that doesn't take place in The Land.
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