Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Reading Along ... managed spoilers
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Last Dark
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Hiro
Giantfriend


Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 256

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


920 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^

Agreed with Zarathustra's, with iQ / TheFallen latest points, this all makes me really wonder about SRD's 'writing from the end'.
Spoiler:

For I cannot see how this ending to the Chron's led to the enormously contrived plot.

For example, a point that was raised somewhere in this forum as well, was the true story reason of 'She Who...' to give Foul a slap to prevent his escape at the ultimate moment? That's rather far-fetched, no?

Or was Jeremiah's true reason to create a forbidding for Foul at that moment? But how do you get from a scene where Foul is forbidden by *someone/something* to this whole business of Liand (orcrest) - Anele - Jeremiah ---> Foul's forbidding?! And why this whole double-whammy of forbidding and slapping anyway? When the core seems to be the merging of Covenant and Foul.

etc. etc. etc.


[mod edit - to protect Zar from spoilers in his thread.]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18500

Thanks: 43
Thanked 189 Times in 181 Posts


30431 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
I think it's self-indulgent allegorising, where the parable, the philosophy according to SRD, has become far more important to the author than the "mere" demands of preserving a compelling and emotionally involving narrative.
That first part actually sounds pretty good to me.

I've just finished All Lost Women (lunch break). Prior to finishing, I'd only read about three pages of that chapter. Right when I jumped back into it, my enjoyment of this story increased tremendously. It felt like Donaldson was back, once he starts depicting the point of his story. The stuff with the Bane was pretty awesome.

Now it looks like we'll have a Jeremiah chapter, and then a Covenant chapter to wrap it all up? Bring on the allegory, I say! (Though a lot more "compelling and emotionally involving narrative" would have been nice along the way.)
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 2388

Thanks: 33
Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts

Location: Guildford, UK
24830 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Well, providing you're a fan of academic and rarified psychological theory, you're in for a fun time... if such a thing can ever be "fun". Don't get your hopes up, though.


Not exactly a spoiler at all, but just in case.
_________________
Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
ussusimiel
Ghurning

Male
Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 5346

Thanks: 69
Thanked 66 Times in 63 Posts

Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
8234 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered1 Member of THOOLAH1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
I think it's self-indulgent allegorising, where the parable, the philosophy according to SRD, has become far more important to the author than the "mere" demands of preserving a compelling and emotionally involving narrative.
That first part actually sounds pretty good to me.

I agree with some of this, but I'd go a bit easier on SRD than you guys.

Zarathustra wrote:
I've just finished All Lost Women (lunch break). Prior to finishing, I'd only read about three pages of that chapter. Right when I jumped back into it, my enjoyment of this story increased tremendously. It felt like Donaldson was back, once he starts depicting the point of his story. The stuff with the Bane was pretty awesome.

Now it looks like we'll have a Jeremiah chapter, and then a Covenant chapter to wrap it all up? Bring on the allegory, I say! (Though a lot more "compelling and emotionally involving narrative" would have been nice along the way.)

This is something that I am coming to understand now that I've finished the series. The parts where SRD is focused on the main point in his story are probably the best. I'm coming to see that there may be significant structural problems that hampered the LCs (I've elaborated a bit in some of those other threads that TheFallen alluded to Laughing ).

u.
_________________
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
iQuestor
Unthanked

Ranyhyn
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2520

Thanks: 9
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

Location: South of Disorder
468 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 I Love KW1 Member of THOOLAH1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... Im just waiting around for the bomb to drop. Hurry Z, we want to know what you think of the ending. Wink
_________________
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18500

Thanks: 43
Thanked 189 Times in 181 Posts


30431 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm done. First, the ending of You Are Mine: I can't believe he went with the Grease ending ... fly away into a happily ever after. Actually, it was also the Blades of Glory ending (Will Ferrell). And the first Matrix movie. I couldn't decide if I wanted 90s music, or the Grease soundtrack playing in my head. Neither is a good choice.

As for the epilogue ... so that I don't just repeat what everyone else has said, I'm going to join you guys in the general threads, and comment after reading your thoughts. But before I go, I want to voice my frustration for how damn easy it was to remake an entire world, and everyone who was alive simply continues with it. It robs the destruction of the world of its impact. It makes Linden's crime a nonissue. If it was so easy to remake the world, why were our heroes so limited along the way? Heck, they *are* gods. All it took was the last minute, comprehensive download of a raver's entire knowledge base and Lord Foul accepting Covenant as his personal lord and savior, and Presto! Instant gods, with all the tools they need to remake the entire world. Talk about unearned knowledge ...

Why would they even need forestals? They can remake any tiny flaw, if they can remake the whole and all its parts.

I thought the Creator couldn't be inside his own creation. They are all three Creators ...

What was the "Mother of all Spoilers?" (Was that Linden?? Laughing )

How do ur-viles become kingly by injesting hurt women?

I better stop now, there's too many questions.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 2388

Thanks: 33
Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts

Location: Guildford, UK
24830 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Condign wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
"I can't help thinking that SRD should have issued a fair few preliminary drafts to get committed reader feedback, before sending the final manuscript off for publication.

No. No, No No No No.

Although I agree with all the other points, I can countenance this.

(I guess you meant that you couldn't countenance this.

Well... your review elsewhere matches pretty exactly with what I and others have also posted as our main issues with TLD. Okay, I freely acknowledge that it's SRD's book and SRD's world, so he can do as he damn well pleases.

Having said that, as an author of a long-running series, he must have been aware (and especially given the success of the first two Chronicles) that he had a wide readership heavily invested in the Covenant saga and as such, I wonder what he'd think about the fairly prevalent feeling of dissatisfaction at least expressed here on the Watch - which, let's face it, is where a wide group of his longest-term committed fans hang out.

To my mind, there are only two possible causes of such widespread reader disappointment. Either a) SRD for whatever reason rushed TLD, employing clunking dei ex machinae and tying off narrative loose ends both hurriedly and carelessly. Or b) the manuscript got savagely abridged and hacked about by an overzealous editor. In either case, a "sounding-board" type objective view from one or two other interested parties pre-publication might have resulted in a less problematic culmination of a work spanning 35 years or so.

I wouldn't blame SRD if it was reason a) above... it must be so hard for any artist to see the wood for the trees when examining his/her own work. And if it was reason b) above, I'd love for there to be a "director's cut" release of the Last Chrons, even if only along the lines of "Gildenfire", with any chapters that didn't make the cut issued separately. Wishful thinking, I know.

Damn but I'd love to know which....

A propos of the above, I just found this answer by SRD to an interviewer's question...
Quote:
Q: What role do beta readers play for you in the process?

SRD: I'm entirely dependent on my personal readers...Although I strictly avoid people who want to tell me how to write, I have an enormous appetite for what A. J. Budrys called "reader symptomatology" (I like this; I don't like that; I find this character revolting and/or hot; I took a nap in the middle; I don't understand what you mean here; I wish you would do something different there). I can only improve as a writer if I have readers who will tell me what my prose actually communicates (which has been known to diverge significantly from what I thought I was communicating).

Long, long ago-in a galaxy far, far away-editors performed this service for writers (and for readers!). Before he published my books, Lester del Rey sent me any number of 20+ page letters excoriating my efforts. (For which I'm more grateful now than I was at the time.) But modern editors are shamefully overworked, and they simply don't have time to provide the kind of detailed symptomatology I crave. Hence the importance of my personal readers. These days, my editors don't see my books until my readers and I have been over the text page by page-and sometimes line by line.

I believe that SRD's two "personal readers" are (or at least were) members of the Watch here. I'd really like to know if he asked them again to give him feedback on TLD (or The last Chrons as a whole) or whether he'd stopped bothering.

It strikes me that, when SRD gave the above answer - sorry, I don't know how long ago it was - he was well aware of the danger of the artist "not being able to see the wood for the trees", or in other words, not being able to take an objectively critical view on his own work and thus not being able to identify problems/issues by so doing. Given his point (that I'm sure is correct) that modern editors simply don't have the time to offer relevant constructive criticism, you'd have thought that his usage of "personal readers" would have been even more crucial in helping him avoid the fairly substantial number of very widely acknowledged (at least here on the Watch) narrative disappointments.

I mean, the man himself says he had "an enormous appetite for reader symptomatology". I wish he'd paid more attention to that appetite in TLD, then.

PS Zar... much as I'd have loved to warn you about (among many other things) the "Carebear Land with dancing Ewoks, gambolling My Little Ponies, fluffity bunnies, rainbows and lollipop trees," cutesey ending, I couldn't in good faith. Remember though that I did advise you to have a double shot of bourbon at hand - to ward off the shock and disappointment of the "You're kidding... after 35 years, that's really it???" culmination... it's all I could do.

Share the pain, dude... share the pain. Come and have a rant in some of the other threads... it's sort of cathartic (but not really).
_________________
Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14346

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15135 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe that SRD's two "personal readers" are (or at least were) members of the Watch here. I'd really like to know if he asked them again to give him feedback on TLD (or The last Chrons as a whole) or whether he'd stopped bothering.


They're still members here. My understanding of their relationship with SRD is similar to what you express above - they're there to make sure SRD gets his point across. AFAIK, SRD rejects any particular criticism of the story from them.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Last Dark All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch