Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

An enduring solution?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Last Dark
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14346

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15135 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: An enduring solution? Reply with quote

Quote:
Alan: why a third series?
all the way through the 1st series people died to give covenant a chance against foul and I can understand why foul came back. In the 2nd chronicles however TC is raised to the stature of pure wild magic between foul and the arch. Linden then creates a new staff of law. this staff is created by the pinicle of the urvile law (vain whose purpose is greatly to be desired) and the elohim, beings of pure earth power. I fail to see how foul can come back. could you please explain.

puzzled of UK

I'm tempted to say, Read the book and find out. But that might miss the point of your question. How is it possible for Lord Foul to recover his vitality? My attitude is, How is it possible for him *not* to recover his vitality? Of course, there are some practical points covered in "The Runes of the Earth" that I don't want to mention here. But the story of the "Covenant" books so far describes a couple of (I believe) temporary solutions to what we might call "the problem of evil." And as long as those solutions ("power" in the first trilogy, "surrender" in the second) are temporary, Lord Foul *must* return. In "The Last Chronicles" my characters will be looking for a more enduring solution. (I, of course, already know what that solution is.)

(10/30/2004)


Can someone explain to me how the ending of TLD is an enduring solution?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
earthbrah
Proponent of Gylany


Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 548

Thanks: 1
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts

Location: Menlo Park, CA
1639 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think first we should separate 'enduring' from 'permanent'. They are not the same thing, and I bet SRD knew this when he envisioned the end of the Last Chronicles and the answer to this question.

I don't really know the answer, but will venture one anyway. I think it has to do with integration. Foul was always an external entity, a being of eternity with a separate existence. He was unalloyed hate, yet now having merged with Covenant, he is no longer that unalloyed hate. He was accepted by his arch enemy who openly chose to suffer his existence. He may not even be a being of eternity anymore, may have had that quality reduced or stripped as part of the merging. I mean, what are the implications for him now that he is an integral part of a mortal being? That's a separate discussion, perhaps.

I also don't think that the answer is as simple as Foul being imprisoned in a different way. Though that is true, this imprisonment is different. I suppose I want to believe that Covenant's forgiveness of Foul through his acceptance of him will in time alter the nature of the Despiser and thus of despite. But at the very least it stands as an example of what it means to forgive and accept Despite instead of forever fighting it.

Fighting it only makes it stronger in the long run, and now no one but Covenant can carry on that fight. And if he does or needs to, it is ALL internal instead of external. Foul can only hurt others if Covenant allows it, or if Foul takes over control of his jailor, somehow.

All of that may not be a real answer, but perhaps it gets us off and running with the discussion through which we may discover the intended answer together...
_________________
"Verily, wisdom is like hunger. Perhaps it is a very fine thing--but who would willingly partake of it."
--Saltheart Foamfollower

"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
iQuestor
Unthanked

Ranyhyn
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2520

Thanks: 9
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

Location: South of Disorder
468 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 I Love KW1 Member of THOOLAH1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont buy it. TC didnt absorb Foul. He said later that he still had foul inside him, which means he is an individual, one capable of possession. He can still fight. All he has to do is take possession then he can start over. To me it isnt even more enduring that WGW's solution.
_________________
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14346

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15135 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iQuestor wrote:
I dont buy it. TC didnt absorb Foul. He said later that he still had foul inside him, which means he is an individual, one capable of possession. He can still fight. All he has to do is take possession then he can start over. To me it isnt even more enduring that WGW's solution.


Or, Foul is freed whenever TC dies. If Foul hasn't been changed, as Earthbrah suggests, then what will become of the Land?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
earthbrah
Proponent of Gylany


Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 548

Thanks: 1
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts

Location: Menlo Park, CA
1639 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's almost like Foul has been trapped inside a Durance. As if TC as the white gold now serves as a mortal interdict against Despite in the Land.

I think part of the point of each answer/response to Despite is that it can never be completely done away with. There is no permanent solution, except acceptance, forgiveness and learning to live with it.
_________________
"Verily, wisdom is like hunger. Perhaps it is a very fine thing--but who would willingly partake of it."
--Saltheart Foamfollower

"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14346

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15135 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:

I think part of the point of each answer/response to Despite is that it can never be completely done away with. There is no permanent solution, except acceptance, forgiveness and learning to live with it.


I can see SRD thinking that very thing when he was writing the last chapters (indeed, that may have been on his mind 30 years ago when he conceived the 2nd and Last Chronicles.)
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
amonereb
Servant of the Land

Male
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 8

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Malaysia
70 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's enduring for SRD. The exit stage right in the epilogue felt like a definite goodbye, and the answer to the giants request for answers was like saying, I don't have all the answers, but now we are going anyway, the end.

I buy the LF/TC conundrum, one can't live without the other... Although it suggests TC is equal to the creator...
_________________
Wash, Rinse, Repeat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sheoll
Servant of the Land


Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


10 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: An enduring solution? Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Quote:
Alan: why a third series?
all the way through the 1st series people died to give covenant a chance against foul and I can understand why foul came back. In the 2nd chronicles however TC is raised to the stature of pure wild magic between foul and the arch. Linden then creates a new staff of law. this staff is created by the pinicle of the urvile law (vain whose purpose is greatly to be desired) and the elohim, beings of pure earth power. I fail to see how foul can come back. could you please explain.

puzzled of UK

I'm tempted to say, Read the book and find out. But that might miss the point of your question. How is it possible for Lord Foul to recover his vitality? My attitude is, How is it possible for him *not* to recover his vitality? Of course, there are some practical points covered in "The Runes of the Earth" that I don't want to mention here. But the story of the "Covenant" books so far describes a couple of (I believe) temporary solutions to what we might call "the problem of evil." And as long as those solutions ("power" in the first trilogy, "surrender" in the second) are temporary, Lord Foul *must* return. In "The Last Chronicles" my characters will be looking for a more enduring solution. (I, of course, already know what that solution is.)

(10/30/2004)


Can someone explain to me how the ending of TLD is an enduring solution?


My answer to you would be "acceptance" of evil. Donaldson says many times, without Evil there can be no good. Things are relative, good exist without its counter. In the same way, covenant cannot exist without LF I believe. Last, if LF were to truly die, I think LA and Jeremiah would have to return dead to the real world.

There is the potential that Jeremiah constructs a cage for LF and the final raver. However, I think there is definitely the potential that LF comes back. I think that the haruchai think this is possible also based on them reforming the Lords and trying to learn lore now.

My only real regret is not being able to see the future of the land. I really loved the lords in revelstone and revelwood in the first chronicles. I wish we could of seen them rebuild and take on future challenges while bringing the people of the land back into the loop. I think though that this was a fitting place to end.

One thing I thought was amazing was the character development of Stave, Humbled and eventually the overall masters. When Covenant says something along the lines of "will you waste the last hours of the earth arguing with us, or will you fight?" and Handir responds "We will fight", it was an amazing moment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bluefoxicy
Servant of the Land


Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 6

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


68 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:

Or, Foul is freed whenever TC dies. If Foul hasn't been changed, as Earthbrah suggests, then what will become of the Land?


He can't.

Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are immortal. They are now of white gold and of power. All power. This is made pretty clear. Covenant has remained the Timewarden, and he and the others even rebuilt the arch.

The Insequent are also immortal. Kenaustin Ardenol is shown wandering through time, and takes up guarding the One Tree after separating from Linden Avery to follow Berek.

If Covenant did die, his spirit would endure. He became the arch once; you think he can't imprison A-Jeroth?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
earthbrah
Proponent of Gylany


Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 548

Thanks: 1
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts

Location: Menlo Park, CA
1639 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluefoxicy wrote:

Quote:
Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are immortal. They are now of white gold and of power. All power. This is made pretty clear. Covenant has remained the Timewarden, and he and the others even rebuilt the arch.

The Insequent are also immortal. Kenaustin Ardenol is shown wandering through time, and takes up guarding the One Tree after separating from Linden Avery to follow Berek.

If Covenant did die, his spirit would endure. He became the arch once; you think he can't imprison A-Jeroth?


I also want to believe that Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah are immortal now. I certainly had that thought while reading. But where is it shown that Kenaustin Ardenol is wandering through time and ditching Linden for Berek? Did I totally gloss over that??? I also think I agree with you that even if Foul remains unchanged within Covenant, that TC will still be able to ward against him somehow.
_________________
"Verily, wisdom is like hunger. Perhaps it is a very fine thing--but who would willingly partake of it."
--Saltheart Foamfollower

"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 2388

Thanks: 33
Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts

Location: Guildford, UK
24830 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
bluefoxicy wrote:

Quote:
Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are immortal. They are now of white gold and of power. All power. This is made pretty clear. Covenant has remained the Timewarden, and he and the others even rebuilt the arch.

The Insequent are also immortal. Kenaustin Ardenol is shown wandering through time, and takes up guarding the One Tree after separating from Linden Avery to follow Berek.

If Covenant did die, his spirit would endure. He became the arch once; you think he can't imprison A-Jeroth?


I also want to believe that Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah are immortal now. I certainly had that thought while reading. But where is it shown that Kenaustin Ardenol is wandering through time and ditching Linden for Berek? Did I totally gloss over that??? I also think I agree with you that even if Foul remains unchanged within Covenant, that TC will still be able to ward against him somehow.

As for Kenaustin, yes he has some ability to wander through Time, much like the Mahdoubt also can. But he doesn't exactly ditch Linden for Berek - yes he advises Linden, but he absolutely has to stay with Berek and advise him. Why? Because he already has. If he ditches Berek, he'll cause a temporal paradox and bring down the Arch of Time, so he really has no choice in the matter.
_________________
Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
I'm Murrin
Aren't you?


Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 15611

Thanks: 7
Thanked 41 Times in 39 Posts

Location: North East, UK
25549 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The important thing about the ending is that there's no longer a story to tell. Yes, moksha was released, and yes, Foul lives on within Covenant. But the important part is that Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are over their doubts. They have power, they are confident in it, they will use it to keep the world whole. They've overcome the internal conflicts that kept them from becoming what they are at the end. And those internal conflicts are what drives Donaldson's stories. Without them, the story is over.
_________________
Inspiration Struck.

Mod of the General Fantasy/Sci-Fi Forum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14346

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15135 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluefoxicy wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:

Or, Foul is freed whenever TC dies. If Foul hasn't been changed, as Earthbrah suggests, then what will become of the Land?


He can't.

Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are immortal. They are now of white gold and of power. All power. This is made pretty clear. Covenant has remained the Timewarden, and he and the others even rebuilt the arch.

The Insequent are also immortal. Kenaustin Ardenol is shown wandering through time, and takes up guarding the One Tree after separating from Linden Avery to follow Berek.

If Covenant did die, his spirit would endure. He became the arch once; you think he can't imprison A-Jeroth?


Wow. What part(s) of the story did you use to justify those conclusions?

Quote:
But the important part is that Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are over their doubts.


One would have thought that to be true after WGW. But when Linden came back to the Land in ROTE, she wasn't the same strong character any longer. She was chock full of doubts and indecision.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
native
ur-vile


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 230

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


316 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was meant to be a symbolic solution rather than a narrative one. It certainly had no relevance to the narrative, although SRD did bump up the Covenant death toll in the run up as a kind of sign post.

If he's made more of the knowledge he needed to save the arch being gained from Foul it might have worked better. A section where Covenant goes back to the arch and tried to support it withhis ring but fails, instead of all that endless splashing about towards the end.

As it is, he probably waited till Jeremiah was ready to build a Foul prison and then let him out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TWDuke77
minotaur

Male
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 16

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: ...and he lives on top of Manhattan Chase
42 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the key point to the whole argument of the enduring solution is that these are the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The enduring solution is his: namely that he has finally found the best answer to his despite, acceptance that it is, and always will be, a part of him. Job done, in my opinion.

Now, if this were the Chronicles of the Land, then it's likely that there never could be an enduring solution. All we have witnessed is effectively the dawn of a new Age, a la LOTR. Of course Despite still exists (a renegade Raver, probable Sandgorgons etc) - as already mentioned, SRD has outlined his belief that Despite cannot be eradicated. Without despite, there cannot be good things also.

But that is now Somebody Else's Problem. If the story were to continue, it would no longer be Covenant's. His has come to an end. And I, for one, am happy that the solution, for him, is enduring.
_________________
'Devalue the object of desire and the pain of loss diminishes' - Patrick Mcgrath
'Funny how secrets travel' - Bowie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14346

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15135 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The enduring solution is his: namely that he has finally found the best answer to his despite, acceptance that it is, and always will be, a part of him.


Nice. But,

Quote:
But that is now Somebody Else's Problem.


dissatisfying nonetheless.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
lurch
Swamp Thang

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 2694

Thanks: 12
Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts

Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do
3943 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the metaphor is answer to you question d...The " enduring" is in the ..Unity..The 3 are Unified,,,Whole...singular in intent and direction. Rather than conflicted , torn apart by the opposites,,they have risen above all the fragmenting contradictions. ..They have used the diametrically opposing contradictions..to find a 3rd choice,,a 3rd reality...A reality that embraces the Unknown. There is a dimension of Love being expressed there and that is the most enduring element of anyones Humanity.
_________________
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18500

Thanks: 43
Thanked 189 Times in 181 Posts


30431 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how the characters resolved their opposites. Jeremiah played a trick on a raver, and got all its knowledge. Covenant hugged Foul. Linden threw women into urviles. Not everything can be symbolic. How did the characters resolve their issues in the story? How did they work these issues out for themselves? None of that was shown. Too much had to be kept secret so that the end wouldn't lose its shock value.

Foul was always part of Covenant. This has been true from the beginning. Covenant has known and accepted it from (nearly) the beginning. He has been telling everyone that Foul is just a part of him. So what exactly was left for him to do, if he got the point of his own character arc many books ago?

And don't forget that Donaldson has conflated the "problem of evil" with the problem of entropy: the fact that everything dies. He hasn't given a solution to that (or to Wildwood's question) ... at least not a human solution. He's just invented a magical solution specific only to his particular created world, one with no value to anyone who can't also magically repair the universe.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
I'm Murrin
Aren't you?


Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 15611

Thanks: 7
Thanked 41 Times in 39 Posts

Location: North East, UK
25549 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linden didn't confront her weakness by removing the souls from the bane. She did it by learning to shield herself from the despair the bane tried to draw out in her.

Jeremiah was confronted with a possession he could protect himself from by withdrawing again, and instead overcame it.

Covenant... didn't really do much, because he already got over himself twice already.
_________________
Inspiration Struck.

Mod of the General Fantasy/Sci-Fi Forum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18500

Thanks: 43
Thanked 189 Times in 181 Posts


30431 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did Linden learn to shield herself from despair?

Possession isn't a real thing. Has no relevance to me as a reader. Hiding inside yourself can be useful?

As you say, Covenant learned this particular lesson at least 5 books ago.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Last Dark All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch