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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main reason for posting my opinion is simple: to show that many of the criticisms are not "obvious" to everyone. Perhaps it is a matter of not accounting for taste, I do not know. The main point: there's a lot said that makes me wonder if we read the same series! Points of confusion to some were clear to me, points of nonsense to some were moments of, "of course it had to happen this way!" for me. There's a lot that I need to digest, and I'll probably have to revisit this series again when the lens of ten plus years of anticipation has been shattered and I can look at it as one work without anticipation and the several years of speculation.

Overall, though, I am satisfied. I am glad Donaldson explained many things without spelling out every single damn thing. I find an author explaining everything to be insulting to be as a reader (and incidentally, is a major reason I do not like books such as Life of Pi. I do not need to be told that "everything works out all right" at the beginning of the book when I see the character is married and has a daughter. I can make the mental leap, but I digress).

I feel that the ending works because the series has been about characters and the resolution of their issues. The other trilogies ended satisfactorily without blasting Foul to atoms, and without promise of another series to continue the story!

I also feel that complaining about deus ex machinas or plot contrivances at this stage of the story in the series is silly. I mean, from the first trilogy alone we have berries that can nourish you that grow pretty much everywhere, dirt that can heal you, these people called "Unfettered" that pop into the story whenever it is convenient, and a ring whose power is unlimited and mere presence manages to move the story along either by attracting the attention of Drool, summoning Amok to show the way to the Earthblood, or randomly bursting with power at the right moment to resolve conflicts because a previously unmentioned, unknown characteristic is that it can be turned on by other power-filled objects. Seriously, if plot contrivances are so detrimental to one's enjoyment of a story, that one shouldn't have read the Chronicles to begin with.

I'll talk about Roger later, since we have some agreements on that point. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
My main reason for posting my opinion is simple: to show that many of the criticisms are not "obvious" to everyone. Perhaps it is a matter of not accounting for taste, I do not know. The main point: there's a lot said that makes me wonder if we read the same series! Points of confusion to some were clear to me, points of nonsense to some were moments of, "of course it had to happen this way!" for me. There's a lot that I need to digest, and I'll probably have to revisit this series again when the lens of ten plus years of anticipation has been shattered and I can look at it as one work without anticipation and the several years of speculation.

Overall, though, I am satisfied. I am glad Donaldson explained many things without spelling out every single damn thing. I find an author explaining everything to be insulting to be as a reader (and incidentally, is a major reason I do not like books such as Life of Pi. I do not need to be told that "everything works out all right" at the beginning of the book when I see the character is married and has a daughter. I can make the mental leap, but I digress).

I feel that the ending works because the series has been about characters and the resolution of their issues. The other trilogies ended satisfactorily without blasting Foul to atoms, and without promise of another series to continue the story!

I also feel that complaining about deus ex machinas or plot contrivances at this stage of the story in the series is silly. I mean, from the first trilogy alone we have berries that can nourish you that grow pretty much everywhere, dirt that can heal you, these people called "Unfettered" that pop into the story whenever it is convenient, and a ring whose power is unlimited and mere presence manages to move the story along either by attracting the attention of Drool, summoning Amok to show the way to the Earthblood, or randomly bursting with power at the right moment to resolve conflicts because a previously unmentioned, unknown characteristic is that it can be turned on by other power-filled objects. Seriously, if plot contrivances are so detrimental to one's enjoyment of a story, that one shouldn't have read the Chronicles to begin with.

I'll talk about Roger later, since we have some agreements on that point. Razz


Orilion, Im glad you were satisfied. There were parts of the book I liked but as you know, overall, I was dissapointed as were many others.

I dont see aliantha, amok or some of the other things you mentioned as deux ex machina in the original chrons. Aliantha was a staple and was present early in the first book. Amok was part of the 7 wards and it took us an entire book to find out what he actually was. The same with Vain. SRDs pacing in the first two series as a lot different and he seemed to take his time and tell the story. The entire third chrons pacing went from cold to hot, and TLD was in my opinion, rushed and forced. I liked much of the story and many of the characters in the third chrons, but again TLD just seemed to be a book about methodically tying up threads. The Sandgorgons deserved much more press time and explanation, and as someone said, we didnt need to see their insides; they went from mythical magical stone creatures to merely giant flesh and blood foes who could be dispatched.

as to your comment that criticisms arent obvious to everyone, of course you are right. People read at different levels, different depths, and have different settings on their "belief suspension" radar. And thats OK, we are all different. I loved the first 2 chrons so much, which is why I read the third chrons with such eagerness. However after reading the first 2 so many times and so thoroughly, I guess my expectations were way out of proportions and I was dissapointed. Maybe I would not have been if the TC chrons 1 & 2 hadnt been so much a part of my literary backdrop. I literally tell anyone I meet who is interested in SF&F about the chrons and implore them to pick up LFB. I have even bought copis to make sure they got them.
SO I probably set myself up for dissapointment.

I know at least one member here who, on release day, rents a hotel room to read the book uninterrupted. Thats the kind of devotion SRD fans have. SO I guess thats why it was read with such a critical eye.

Life Of PI - I loved it, even though you know it turn out all right. for me I kept wondering, "how in the heck did he get out of that mess?" so it worked for me.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't the Tank. Anyone can say anything they like about these books without the need to defend themselves. It's all opinion, and we know what they're like.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would ask SRD if his style of writing backwards in the end painted him into a corner that left him with little to no room to have the story flow as he initially envisioned. For example, I would have thought the chapter where Linden and Mahrtiir went back to find the forbidding, had an all to abrupt ending. Mahrtiir's change was described in such a short paragraph, and Linden's dammed green pants, which in earlier books seemed to devote a lot of time and relevence to, kind of got an off the shoulder response of: "Oh, the green stripes are gone now, isn't that something?".

It just seems that the SRD would have would have put more detailed richness into some of the events that had been foreshadowed form the last 3 books. In some instances, shortcuts were taken in spots where I would have liked to spend a lot more time. I wonder how difficult it was as he fought with himself on where to dig for the most gold in wrapping up the series?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaverRats wrote:
I would ask SRD if his style of writing backwards in the end painted him into a corner that left him with little to no room to have the story flow as he initially envisioned. For example, I would have thought the chapter where Linden and Mahrtiir went back to find the forbidding, had an all to abrupt ending. Mahrtiir's change was described in such a short paragraph, and Linden's dammed green pants, which in earlier books seemed to devote a lot of time and relevence to, kind of got an off the shoulder response of: "Oh, the green stripes are gone now, isn't that something?".

It just seems that the SRD would have would have put more detailed richness into some of the events that had been foreshadowed form the last 3 books. In some instances, shortcuts were taken in spots where I would have liked to spend a lot more time. I wonder how difficult it was as he fought with himself on where to dig for the most gold in wrapping up the series?


I loved that Martiir became the new forestall, it made sense. But I agree the whole thing was rushed and thinly explained.

I dont think it was that he had written himself into a corner; I think it was that he is older and probably tired and just wanted to get it done. SRD is truly capable of coming up with awesome ways to explain and plot, no doubt.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iQuestor wrote:
I think it was that he is older and probably tired and just wanted to get it done.


This is, I expect, closer to the truth.

The simple fact is, the Last Chronicles should have been 5 books, not 4.

Most of the criticisms people are putting forth in regards to TLD are problems of being "too short" or "too rushed". I agree, I would have liked to see the sort of pacing that would have enabled SRD to...

1) Describe the Worm's action in greater detail. Describe how it was moving across the plains, moving toward Skyweir, destroying the mountain. Near the end, when Jeremiah had the sight power from Foul, the scenes of devastation he could have described would have made fantastic reading.

2) Explain in greater detail Mahrtiir's transformation into a Forestal.

3) Provide more of the journey toward Mt. Thunder and into and under the mountain. Their arrival at Kiril Threndor should have been as majestic as it was in the Second Chronicles. But it wasn't, because it was shorter.

4) Write the scene we all wanted to read: The main characters rebuilding the world and the Elohim putting the Worm back to sleep.

5) Provide a longer epilogue, detailing the "new" Land and its features.

It really should have been 5 books.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
iQuestor wrote:
I think it was that he is older and probably tired and just wanted to get it done.


This is, I expect, closer to the truth.

The simple fact is, the Last Chronicles should have been 5 books, not 4.

Most of the criticisms people are putting forth in regards to TLD are problems of being "too short" or "too rushed". I agree, I would have liked to see the sort of pacing that would have enabled SRD to...
...It really should have been 5 books.

Now that I am beginning to finally understand what SRD was up to in the Last Chrons, I partially agree with this. I don't think that it should have been 5 books, but I do think that TLD should have been two books. What this implies is that, IMO, the first three books should have been shorter. Personally, I think that much of the complication and the existence of many of unnecessary (and disposable) characters could have been avoided. The tightening up of the plot and smaller cast would have improved the pacing immeasureably and would have played to SRD's strengths as a storyteller and writer.

u.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
iQuestor wrote:
I think it was that he is older and probably tired and just wanted to get it done.


This is, I expect, closer to the truth.

The simple fact is, the Last Chronicles should have been 5 books, not 4.

Most of the criticisms people are putting forth in regards to TLD are problems of being "too short" or "too rushed". I agree, I would have liked to see the sort of pacing that would have enabled SRD to...

1) Describe the Worm's action in greater detail. Describe how it was moving across the plains, moving toward Skyweir, destroying the mountain. Near the end, when Jeremiah had the sight power from Foul, the scenes of devastation he could have described would have made fantastic reading.

2) Explain in greater detail Mahrtiir's transformation into a Forestal.

3) Provide more of the journey toward Mt. Thunder and into and under the mountain. Their arrival at Kiril Threndor should have been as majestic as it was in the Second Chronicles. But it wasn't, because it was shorter.

4) Write the scene we all wanted to read: The main characters rebuilding the world and the Elohim putting the Worm back to sleep.

5) Provide a longer epilogue, detailing the "new" Land and its features.

It really should have been 5 books.


I agree ; not sure about 5 books, maybe less cataclysmic battles and more thoughtful writing could have done it.

I remember how the first chrons made me feel:

The Rape of Lena.

Atarian triock and Trells sacrifices and heartbreaks.

Foamfollower telling Coventant "With one word, you will break my heart."

Foamfollower telling TC at ManHome - "Does it surprise you then I have been thinking of hope?"

WInhome Rue's speech at Revelstone.

Dukka Waynhim's plight.

The slaughter at coercri.

The loss of Korik, Silll and Doar.

Lord Mhoram's Victory.

The siege of Revelstone.

Hile Troy almost throwing himself off Kevins Watch.

Mhoram's Pleas and summons to the Forrestal to save the remains of Hile's Army.

Foamfollower and Bannor, held in thrall to the Illearth Stone by Elena Foul Wife.

The death of Lena.

The healin g of TC by the Unfettered in TPTP.

Saltheart, wading through hotash slay with covenant on his back.

Saltheart becoming the Pure One.

Saltheart telling covenant "Do you Mock Me? Such Things I do for you" in the tunnels inder Fouls Creche.

there were almost no scenes as moving as these in the lat chrons. and I could name more.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The simple fact is, the Last Chronicles should have been 5 books, not 4.


There's no way I could stand another book full of Linden Avery.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:

I don't think that it should have been 5 books, but I do think that TLD should have been two books. What this implies is that, IMO, the first three books should have been shorter. Personally, I think that much of the complication and the existence of many of unnecessary (and disposable) characters could have been avoided. The tightening up of the plot and smaller cast would have improved the pacing immeasureably and would have played to SRD's strengths as a storyteller and writer.
u.


I can get behind this idea.

dlbpharmd wrote:

There's no way I could stand another book full of Linden Avery.


I find the constant griping about Linden on this site more tiresome than Linden herself in the books.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should just skip over those bits HC like I do over the Linden bits in the book. The trouble is there isn't any book left.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:

There's no way I could stand another book full of Linden Avery.


I find the constant griping about Linden on this site more tiresome than Linden herself in the books.

I am restraining myself from going into THOOLAH mode, because once I do, all pretence of balance and fairness will disappear. It's coming though, it's coming! Big Grin

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:

There's no way I could stand another book full of Linden Avery.


I find the constant griping about Linden on this site more tiresome than Linden herself in the books.

I am restraining myself from going into THOOLAH mode, because once I do, all pretence of balance and fairness will disappear. It's coming though, it's coming! Big Grin

u.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Quote:
The simple fact is, the Last Chronicles should have been 5 books, not 4.


There's no way I could stand another book full of Linden Avery.


The First Chronicles of Linden Avery, due in bookstores August 2016.

'The first installment is tenatively titled, That Time of Month.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone ever asked SRD if he would ever revisit the Land again? With Covenant, Linden, or anyone else as main character?

I assume the answer is "no", but is he on record with this?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like stating the obvious HC but one assumes the clues in the title [The Last Chrons] Wink. However - granted this does not preclude other 'explorations' into the world he has created [think The Silmarillion] and it's rich history and I for one [notwithstanding my dissapointment with 3C] would lap up detail of this order.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Has anyone ever asked SRD if he would ever revisit the Land again? With Covenant, Linden, or anyone else as main character?

I assume the answer is "no", but is he on record with this?


I think he has said that he is definately done with the Land. I doubt seriously he would even entertain another book.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's done.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone else think the Land is a rich enough scouce of imaginative matereal to warrent a deeper exploration of its history, myth, culture etc. [Even given it's not going to be SRD generated.]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Does anyone else think the Land is a rich enough scouce of imaginative matereal to warrent a deeper exploration of its history, myth, culture etc. [Even given it's not going to be SRD generated.]


Yes, I definitely do.
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