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Horrim Carabal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Kevin's ghost Reply with quote

Am I the only fan in the history of SRD fanhood who would enjoy reading the scene where Kevin's ghost confronts Foul in the Creche?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that ever happened did it? When Elena summoned Kevin, he was mastered by the Illearth Stone, but Foul did it from afar I thought. I'm not sure they actually confronted each other.

Now, the fight between Elena and Dead Kevin... I'd love to see that Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Kevin's ghost Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Am I the only fan in the history of SRD fanhood who would enjoy reading the scene where Kevin's ghost confronts Foul in the Creche?


hmmm....if there were an actual battle [meaning an extended confrontation of any sort where the outcome was in doubt] it might be fun.
BUT...I think the point was that the command and the logic that led to it was so totally mistaken that there WAS no confrontation. Kevin showed up, LF smirked and said "Welcome to my service, go attack the bitch," and Kevin did so.
Anything that was any more than LF torturing Kevin for fun before sending him back diminishes the scale and meaning of the failure.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Kevin's ghost Reply with quote

Akasri wrote:
I'm not sure that ever happened did it? When Elena summoned Kevin, he was mastered by the Illearth Stone, but Foul did it from afar I thought. I'm not sure they actually confronted each other.


I've never heard anyone claim that Foul mastered him from afar before. What an odd idea! I've never even considered that.

...okay, now that I've considered it, I don't believe it happened that way. Kevin was sent to attack Foul. If Foul wanted to dominate him at a distance, he could have done it right in front of Elena. Why wait until he got partway to the Creche?

No, I'm pretty sure Kevin made it all the way to Foul's personal space, before LF dominated him with the Stone and sent him back. Maybe he even let Kevin raise his hand (in a spiritual sense) against him before snatching all hope - and freedom - from the shade.

Vraith wrote:

hmmm....if there were an actual battle [meaning an extended confrontation of any sort where the outcome was in doubt] it might be fun.
BUT...I think the point was that the command and the logic that led to it was so totally mistaken that there WAS no confrontation. Kevin showed up, LF smirked and said "Welcome to my service, go attack the bitch," and Kevin did so.


Oh I completely agree. I wasn't trying to say there was some sort of "battle" between Foul and Kevin. Why did you assume that's what I meant?

I'd still like to read the scene. I can imagine it was agonizing for Kevin, and would shed some light on both his personality and Foul's. After all, it was the first time they'd met since they had Desecrated the Land together.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bear in mind that Kevin was telling Elena what she was doing was a Bad Idea long before she had actually dispatched him on his futile mission to oppose Foul.

During his brief absence, she starts to consider what he said and the implications of what she had done...

There is no way that Lester Del Rey would have let SRD break his narrative paradox by having such a scene. Whose viewpoint would it be told in? Kevin's? Foul's??

It was already a struggle to allow the Hile Troy POV...and the Haruchai third of TIW got excised and replaced with the Runnik and Tull chapters.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea that Kevin was mastered from a distance seems a bit confusing. On the one hand, Foul's reach with the Illearth Stone doesn't seem likely to be "infinite" or very, very long reaching, or at least its power attenuates with distance. I say this because he sent out giant ravers with shards of the stone, instead of just working on his own with the stone in the creche.

At the same time, even Drool was able to taint the moon red with (IIRC) either the staff or the stone or a combination of the two, so one would think that Foul had some kind of long distance capacity (he also created the sunbane in the second chrons).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holsety wrote:
The idea that Kevin was mastered from a distance seems a bit confusing. On the one hand, Foul's reach with the Illearth Stone doesn't seem likely to be "infinite" or very, very long reaching, or at least its power attenuates with distance. I say this because he sent out giant ravers with shards of the stone, instead of just working on his own with the stone in the creche.

At the same time, even Drool was able to taint the moon red with (IIRC) either the staff or the stone or a combination of the two, so one would think that Foul had some kind of long distance capacity (he also created the sunbane in the second chrons).


My objection to the "long distance" theory is more that Foul wouldn't do it that way, not that he couldn't do it that way.

...but then again, he probably couldn't do it that way, either. Your example of the Giant-Ravers having slivers of the stone is a good one. As for the moon, I think the Staff of Law plus the Stone together accomplished that task, neither one alone seem powerful enough for that.

And the Sunbane was a work of Lore by Foul, corrupting Earthpower over a long, long time. He most likely did it from inside the earth, maybe down deep under Mount Thunder or Melekurion Skyweir or somewhere else.

Is there any textual references to how Foul accomplished the Sunbane, other than just "corrupting Earthpower"? As in, where he was when he did it?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit that, having looked at that section, it doesn't really hint at where Kevin got turned around.

Certainly he was Power of Commanded to go to Foul.

It does seem likely that he would need to be in the presence of the Stone and Foul to be so "mastered" and "consumed". He was a tough guy.

On the other hand, as one of the Dead, he probably could be ordered about fairly easily. Which is the part Elena missed - he was still Dead, and not crossed back into Life thereby.

But I'd like to think that Foul wouldn't know about Kevin to do anything until Kevin showed up, all green with his fists up, in the Creche.

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Is there any textual references to how Foul accomplished the Sunbane, other than just "corrupting Earthpower"? As in, where he was when he did it?

In The Wounded Land was wrote:
Despite did not die. Fleeing the destruction of his Creche, he had hidden at the fringes of the one power potent enough to heal even him: the Earthpower itself.

So: not so much a geographical where as a cosmological where. "In" Earthpower. I imagine somewhere under the earth, below the Land ... but that's all I got.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I have to admit that, having looked at that section, it doesn't really hint at where Kevin got turned around.

Certainly he was Power of Commanded to go to Foul.

It does seem likely that he would need to be in the presence of the Stone and Foul to be so "mastered" and "consumed". He was a tough guy.

On the other hand, as one of the Dead, he probably could be ordered about fairly easily. Which is the part Elena missed - he was still Dead, and not crossed back into Life thereby.

But I'd like to think that Foul wouldn't know about Kevin to do anything until Kevin showed up, all green with his fists up, in the Creche.


I agree. Plus, when he came back, he said he had been mastered by the Stone, right? Not just by Foul ordering a ghost around.

I doubt Foul even needed to use the Illearth Stone to beat Kevin. He just probably did, knowing it would cause Kevin/Elena more pain.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
I have to admit that, having looked at that section, it doesn't really hint at where Kevin got turned around.

Certainly he was Power of Commanded to go to Foul.

It does seem likely that he would need to be in the presence of the Stone and Foul to be so "mastered" and "consumed". He was a tough guy.

On the other hand, as one of the Dead, he probably could be ordered about fairly easily. Which is the part Elena missed - he was still Dead, and not crossed back into Life thereby.

But I'd like to think that Foul wouldn't know about Kevin to do anything until Kevin showed up, all green with his fists up, in the Creche.


I agree. Plus, when he came back, he said he had been mastered by the Stone, right? Not just by Foul ordering a ghost around.

I doubt Foul even needed to use the Illearth Stone to beat Kevin. He just probably did, knowing it would cause Kevin/Elena more pain.


There was no remote mastering of Kevin by Foul. Elena used the Earthblood to compell Kevin to defeat Foul. It was obvious to me he went to Foul's Creche and attempted to fight Foul and was handed his hat. Kevin comes back to Elena at Earthroot in a few moments, saying something to the effect that "Foul Mastered him easily, and sent him to defeat Elena". Then they battled and she finally died, and later became Elena Foul-Wife.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iQuestor wrote:

There was no remote mastering of Kevin by Foul. Elena used the Earthblood to compell Kevin to defeat Foul. It was obvious to me he went to Foul's Creche and attempted to fight Foul and was handed his hat. Kevin comes back to Elena at Earthroot in a few moments, saying something to the effect that "Foul Mastered him easily, and sent him to defeat Elena". Then they battled and she finally died, and later became Elena Foul-Wife.


I guess the real question is... why couldn't Elena defeat a friggin ghost? She had the Staff of Law!

Kevin couldn't do squat against Foul, but he could kill the Land's most powerful defender, the High Lord, equipped with the Staff of Law, the most powerful "good" item known?

I've always thought Elena screwed up, getting killed by a spirit she herself just summoned.

Then, after she becomes a ghost under Foul's control, she attacks Covenant, who promptly kicks her ass as well, destroying the Staff and banishing her.

Not a good showing for Elena.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Elena knew about the weaknesses of the Dead. Foul did.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elena couldn't defeat Kevin because he was a Lord who had mastered the entirety of the known Lore of Earthpower, and was backed by the Illearth Stone, while she was lucky to have a Ward and a half of Lore (neither of which was fully understood by her, but which were CREATED BY Kevin), plus a sip of Earthblood. And she had already used up that last part.

Even with the Staff (which Keven may even have been able to draw power from while she was holding it, assuming the Illearth Stone did not prevent such mixed weilding), she ultimately didn't have a chance, even though it sounds like she put up one heck of a fight for as long as she could.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IrrationalSanity wrote:
Elena couldn't defeat Kevin because he was a Lord who had mastered the entirety of the known Lore of Earthpower, and was backed by the Illearth Stone, while she was lucky to have a Ward and a half of Lore (neither of which was fully understood by her, but which were CREATED BY Kevin), plus a sip of Earthblood. And she had already used up that last part.

Even with the Staff (which Keven may even have been able to draw power from while she was holding it, assuming the Illearth Stone did not prevent such mixed weilding), she ultimately didn't have a chance, even though it sounds like she put up one heck of a fight for as long as she could.


I doubt Kevin as a ghost used any of his Lore.

I think he only used whatever native power he had as a spirit, plus whatever power Foul imbued him with from the Illearth Stone.

If he had access to all his Lore, he wouldn't have taken so long to beat her.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
IrrationalSanity wrote:
Elena couldn't defeat Kevin because he was a Lord who had mastered the entirety of the known Lore of Earthpower, and was backed by the Illearth Stone, while she was lucky to have a Ward and a half of Lore (neither of which was fully understood by her, but which were CREATED BY Kevin), plus a sip of Earthblood. And she had already used up that last part.

Even with the Staff (which Keven may even have been able to draw power from while she was holding it, assuming the Illearth Stone did not prevent such mixed weilding), she ultimately didn't have a chance, even though it sounds like she put up one heck of a fight for as long as she could.


I doubt Kevin as a ghost used any of his Lore.

I think he only used whatever native power he had as a spirit, plus whatever power Foul imbued him with from the Illearth Stone.

If he had access to all his Lore, he wouldn't have taken so long to beat her.

That makes sense to me. Especially since so few of the fundamental laws had been broken yet. He very likely couldn't have used much Lore despite still knowing it with the strictures still in place.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'd forgotten that Elena actually commanded him to attack Foul, so yeah he probably did it in person.

Sorry, I just wasn't thinking Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just finished TIL last night. Kevin was "away some time" after Elena commanded him to defeat Foul. When he returned he said that he had been overcome by Foul and the Ilearth stone and had been ordered to destroy Elena. Morin was killed trying to protect her.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that as the battle was raging, Mhoram mentioned that Kevin wasn't as powerful as the Lords had thought. Although the Old Lords were more powerful than the New Lords, the New Lords, and especially Elena, seem to have vastly overestimated the power of those legends.

Why Elena thought the ghost of Kevin could overcome Foul where the live Kevin, with the Staff, the krill, and supported by all his lore and a more powerful council, failed, I'll never know.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

francois60 wrote:
Why Elena thought the ghost of Kevin could overcome Foul where the live Kevin, with the Staff, the krill, and supported by all his lore and a more powerful council, failed, I'll never know.

Well, that's fairly straightforward. For earlier Elena had said,
In The Illearth War was wrote:
"[Kevin] was a brave and worthy man driven to extremity. Any mortal or unguarded heart may be brought to despair - for this reason we cling to the Oath of Peace. And for this same reason High Lord Kevin fascinates me. He avowed the Land, and defiled it - in the same breath affirmed and denounced." Her voice rose on the inner wind of her emotion. "How great must have been his grief? And how great his power had he only survived that last consuming moment - if, after beholding the Desecration, and hearing the Despiser's glee, he had lived to strike one more blow!

"Thomas Covenant, I believe that there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair, strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite."

What I see here is that Elena is starting to understand the same "knowledge of power" which, in the next book, Mhorham sees. "The link between power and passion". And that both positive and negative passion can be used.

But Elena's hatred of Foul causes her to misuse her knowledge. Rather than discovering power for herself, and the Lords, she only has her eyes on Foul's demise, and wants to defeat him so eagerly that she fails to consider other costs.

Tragically, she dies with this fragment of the knowledge, and Mhoram is left to discover it on his own nine (or whatever many) years later.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's all true, WF, especially the reminder of the connection between power, passion, and knowledge [we also might add in a reminder of guilt as well...since Kevin was surely as guilty as anyone had ever been after enacting the ritual].

But I reiterate, rephrase that the ultimate problem which Elena either failed to understand or intentionally avoided considering is the connection between Earthpower and LIFE. Kevin was DEAD. That made all the difference, and she should have/could have known it. [IIRC, Kevin even alluded to that when summoned back and speaking to Elena].

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