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A Positive Thread About TLD
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lurch
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and speakin about laughter and crumbling..what a coincidence..but this great metaphor at the end of chapter 2, part 2..." The laughter of broken rocks dissipated until it was gone.."..in reference to Lord Fouls banishment from Jerry by Linden..fouls fading laff as the sounds of rocks breaking...wow!, thats a good one..It really challenges ones ability to perceive anew, or differently..The word , "hideous", is talcum powder compared to..the laughter of broken rocks..The insanity of despair in the laughter of broken rocks; something so chilling in that.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
...and speakin about laughter and crumbling..what a coincidence..but this great metaphor at the end of chapter 2, part 2..." The laughter of broken rocks dissipated until it was gone.."..in reference to Lord Fouls banishment from Jerry by Linden..fouls fading laff as the sounds of rocks breaking...wow!, thats a good one..It really challenges ones ability to perceive anew, or differently..The word , "hideous", is talcum powder compared to..the laughter of broken rocks..The insanity of despair in the laughter of broken rocks; something so chilling in that.

This may also be another circle closing: Foul's word 'Dismayed' was associated with the breaking of rocks when TC met him first in LFB (p.48, end of Ch.3):
Quote:
'Think on that and be dismayed!'

Dismayed hung prolonged in the air, while around it grew the noise of grinding, great boulders crushing lesser rocks between them.

u.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

,,yeaaa...something tells me that the grinding rock line is almost as frequent as the word,,puissance,,in The Chrons..I guess you got to have puissance to grind boulders together.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked Jehannum's hypnotically seductive possession of Jeremiah. And also that Jehannum didn't suffer the fate of his brothers; he's been my online alter ego since 1988 (computer science student)!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jehannum_2000 wrote:
I liked Jehannum's hypnotically seductive possession of Jeremiah. And also that Jehannum didn't suffer the fate of his brothers; he's been my online alter ego since 1988 (computer science student)!


Great to see you back!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Great to see you back!


Thanks. Very careful not to visit before I'd finished TLD. Paranoid about spoilers after nearly 30 years of reading the Chronicles!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donaldson goes on about his characters need to change and develop new choices, new realities,,and then he does so himself..I've posted on the Riddle and Metaphors and Alliterative chapters. I can see how, all together,, he is doing what his characters need to do.

Juxtaposition of the In-congruent is an idea that is meant in execution. to move one out of their comfort zone. make them think.,realize new realities. A Riddle in the middle of the story fits the description...A chapter of alliteration while telling a tale of slaughter, death and gore certainly fits the description of " juxtaposition of the in-congruent". There are two easy examples of what makes TLD new and interesting and a positive push to make one think,,if one is so inclined.
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been absent from this forum for a long time - simply because when TLD arrived in the post on the day of its UK release I realized I needed to read the whole last chronicles from start to be able to appreciate TLD to its full potential.
BTW it's great to see you guys still around, after so many years!
I just finished TLD a few days ago so the experience is still fresh.
What can one say at the end of a journey that lasted more than 2 decades? I read LFB for the first time some time at the end of the eighties, and the Chronicles have been my trusted and beloved companions ever since. One gets emotional when such a journey ends and so it was for me when I put the last book down. To be precise, I welled up; not that it was the first time throughout the chronicles.
And I love TLD, and I love the ending. The Land has been rebuilt and is there for us to visit any time. What's not to like? And I love the fact that no direct references to 'real life' were forced down our throats at the end - every reader can leave the story trying to figure out for themselves what applicability there is to what has happened in the Land. Up to the very end I was saying to myself like a mantra please don't let him pull a Bobby Ewing - and he didn't, and thus I am content.
The overarching theme of the Chronicles is that it does not matter whether the Land is real or just a projection of the subconscious - what matter is what we do about it. And SRD remained true to this to the very end.

Were there things that frustrated me in TLD? Oh, assuredly.
I AM MYSELF? Really? I felt quite disappointed at that point. But then again, after a few minutes, I reconsidered. For what sort of revelation could have been given? What name that would not have felt like a retcon? And we all know one cannot say the true name of God for the world would end. Ask Arthur C. Clarke.

I also found the uber-formal speech of the Masters and the Ramen a bit contrived at times. The Timewarden's former mate was grating to read for the 27th time. But then again I understand its necessity from a narrative point.
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BTW it's great to see you guys still around, after so many years!


It's good to see you back!
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm not sure if this should be a new thread, or if it has been discussed, but I have a question.

Now that Lord Foul is part of Covenant, and Covenant will never leave the land, what happens when he dies? Will he die and Foul will again be released to wreak havoc? Will he remain alive forever, keeping Foul's soul imprisoned forever? Will Foul die with him? Will Linden constantly have to remind him who he really is to keep Foul in check? Will foul learn to be at peace with himself?

These are the things that keep me awake at night....
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kvickie wrote:
So I'm not sure if this should be a new thread, or if it has been discussed, but I have a question.

Now that Lord Foul is part of Covenant, and Covenant will never leave the land, what happens when he dies? Will he die and Foul will again be released to wreak havoc? Will he remain alive forever, keeping Foul's soul imprisoned forever? Will Foul die with him? Will Linden constantly have to remind him who he really is to keep Foul in check? Will foul learn to be at peace with himself?

These are the things that keep me awake at night....


I've said this since the OP of the "TLD First Impressions" thread. There is no final soluion for Lord Foul, and this irritates me.
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kvickie wrote:
Now that Lord Foul is part of Covenant, and Covenant will never leave the land, what happens when he dies? Will he die and Foul will again be released to wreak havoc? Will he remain alive forever, keeping Foul's soul imprisoned forever? Will Foul die with him? Will Linden constantly have to remind him who he really is to keep Foul in check? Will foul learn to be at peace with himself
They are not different people any more. Foul is not imprisoned or contained in Thomas. He is Thomas. The worst thing that can happen is that Covenant can act very Foul-like. The other things aren't an issue any more -- and it's the only ending that can promise that.
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..You worry too much ...There are infinite attributes of Life that can be qualified as Despair or despairing. Its not the Despair, its how you deal with it...its how you deal with all that brings despair.

Lets see,,TC, the leper, has had to deal with leprosy, an ex wife who has lost her mind and blindly causes others pain and suffering. Hes had to deal with a Son who hates his father and would gladly cause him pain and suffering and even death. The point is..what could possibly challenge TC strong enough, to force his capitulation to His Foulness?...what could conflict him, divide him , to the point of no hope?...Now that contemplation will keep you up at night.

The reference is...no , there is no pat answer,there is ,no " they lived happily ever after.." ( taking the line from in front of the book pointed to Reader Butler)..All that is provided is a perspective, the " how "..how to perceive and think so that one isn't constantly conflicted or in a conflicted state of mind,,etc etc etc. to being Whole, Unified.,,at peace with one self. Its every one's challenge and every one deals with it in their own way. But once you know of it,,once you know of just the smallest bit of success of it..Thats all it takes.. TC and family move forward into the future in epilogue. Their struggles are not over,,but their success have just begun. With each success, despair is weakened, belittled, reduced. Their hard won perspective is their formula that keeps despair in its place.

Your " ifs" assume their successes are not fullfilling , nor motivating. I would have a difficult time getting to sleep also, if I thought there was no Love, Hope or Compassion in the world.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe I said there was no Love, Hope, or Compassion. I certainly could not do what I do every day if I did not believe in those things, either in The Land or in real life.

I merely lack your absolute certainty that Foul is now inextricably a part of Covenant and that his goodness will always be able to keep Foul in check.

Remember, there was a time when Covenant could not even control his own dark urges. Even with all his strength and all he has learned, how can he control Foul forever?
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kvickie wrote:
I don't believe I said there was no Love, Hope, or Compassion. I certainly could not do what I do every day if I did not believe in those things, either in The Land or in real life.

I merely lack your absolute certainty that Foul is now inextricably a part of Covenant and that his goodness will always be able to keep Foul in check.

Remember, there was a time when Covenant could not even control his own dark urges. Even with all his strength and all he has learned, how can he control Foul forever?

It ISN't TC's "goodness" that check's LF. It is his comprehension, identity, and allowances.

TC isn't just some "guard"...he has advantages...he has BEEN mortal, and immortal, he has BEEN a despiser and a creator. He has BEEN both IM and OMNI potent.
There WAS a time he couldn't control his urges...but he was a sick infant then.

And, on top of that...he is not the only one. There are many around him that know...each as individuals AND groups/schools...far more than the entirety of the world's history knew before. [[and they're gonna learn a helluva lot more.]]
And they're finally talking to each other [which matters more than peeps seem to think...if the assorted powers, even just the "good" ones had talked to each other, it might not have prevented the ultimate confrontation...but it probably would have happened when High Lord Kevin XXII was, all like "I'm sick of that big cliff, and that poison swamp, and that tentacle thing impeding my trade routes with the giants...."

It's like Bill Gates farmer-mom saying "All I have to leave my boy is an acre, and 2 cows, what will he do when I'm gone?'

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kv..As long as he knows the formula.

As V put it..its not " goodness". Its not " wrongness". Its "surrealness"...its..taking the polar opposites and mixing them together to create a 3rd reality,,create an alternate to that which divides and conflicts. The seeds of despair are in the conflicted state of mind, ,,The formula is to rise above the polar opposites to a 3rd or 4th or etc etc reality. Finding more choices than the " Or",,more choices than..true OR False..Yes OR no.. Black OR White ..etc..Despair traps you with the OR..despair holds you as long as you believe you have only two choices..yes/no..left/right..true/false.. Despair is a product of how you think..so the Surreal is all about..changing the Way you think..Once you know the success of that..the formula is yours . With that ,despair is kept in its place. ..contained.

How you Love,,how You Hope..how you share your Compassion...creates your future. With every success, despair becomes more and more of the past.

Once you open the door , why would you throw away the key?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to grinding rocks of SRD;,,the author also grinds teeth as in Jeremiah dealing with pain and suffering of others for his idea on how to save the Elohim...The author seems to have a thing about hard objects abrading against each other..Now that I think about it..quite the metaphor of polarized thinking and perceiving...two hard opposites just grinding each other down to nothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Lurch, but...

Quote:
.The author seems to have a thing about hard objects abrading against each other



LOL Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In The Last Dark, Part I Chapter 9 was wrote:
Beckoning for Jeremiah to accompany her, Kindwind stepped away. When they had withdrawn a few paces, she said, "We must trust, Chosen-son, that his [Stave's] folk restore themselves in this manner. It appears that his spirit has turned inward. But I believe that a man who has performed his feats must soon heal himself and return to us."

Jeremiah swallowed against the dryness in his throat. "I hope so. He doesn't deserve this."

"Ah, deserve," sighed Kindwind. "The notion of deserved and undeserved is a fancy. Knowing both life and death, we endeavor to impose worth and meaning upon our deeds, and thereby to comfort our fear of impermanence. We choose to imagine that our lives merit continuance. Mayhap all sentience shares a similar fancy. Mayhap the Earth itself, being sentient in its fashion, shares it. Nonetheless it is a fancy. A wider gaze does not regard us in that wise. The stars do not. Perhaps the Creator does not. The larger truth is merely that all things end. By that measure, our fancies cannot be distinguished from dust.
"For this reason, Giants love tales. Our iteration of past deeds and desires and discoveries provides the only form of permanence to which mortal life can aspire. That such permanence is chimera does not lessen its power to console. Joy is in the ears that hear."

Her assertion startled Jeremiah. It seemed to question his foundations. If he closed his eyes, he could still see the extremity of Stave's fall. the hard throb of Cabledarm's bleeding and the excruciation of her shoulder cried out to his senses. Awkwardly he reached for Kindwind's last waterskin. When she released it, he drank as if his thirst--his dismay--had the force of a moral convulsion.
"So you're saying," he protested or pleaded, "what Stave did is worthless? What Cabledarm did is worthless? It's all dust?"

"Aye," Cirrus Kindwind assented, "if that is how you choose to hear the tale." Her tone was mild. "For myself, I will honor the effort and the intent. Doing so, I will be comforted."

Jeremiah wanted to shout. Instead he fumed, "You sound like the croyel." Was joy in the ears that heaar? Then so were agony and horror. So was despair. "It was forever telling me everything Mom did was useless. Nothing matters. It's all dust. That's why Lord Foul laughs--and Roger--and those Ravers. They agree with you. In the end, they're the only ones who get what they want."

Kindwind looked at him sharply. Like the flick of a blade, she retorted, "Then hear me, Chosen-son. Hear me well. There is another truth which you must grasp.
"Mortal lives are not stones. They are not seas. For impermanence to judge itself by the standards of permanence is folly. Or it is arrogance. Life merely is what it is, neither more or less. To deem it less because it is not more is to heed the counsels of the Despiser.
"We do what we must so that we may find worth in ourselves. We do not hope vainly that we will put an end to pain, or to loss, or to death."

Failure isn't something you are. It's something you do.

Without warning, Jeremiah found that he ached to share Kindwind's beliefs, and Linden's. Perhaps the monolith had never contained enough malachite. Perhaps the deposit had shattered. Perhaps Stave and even Cabledarm would die. Perhaps Mom would never come back. Perhaps futility was the only truth. Still Jeremiah would have to find a way to live with it.
To himself, he muttered, "It's not that easy."

Cirrus Kindwind had never been possessed.

Her response was a snort. "We were not promised ease. The purpose of life--if it may be said to have a purpose--is not ease. It is to choose, and to act upon the choice. In that task, we are not measured by outcomes. We are measured only by daring and effort and resolve."


This is one of my favorite passages in the first half of TLD. Cirrus Kindwind makes sense to me, here, and as a result comes alive as a character for me.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In that task, we are not measured by outcomes. We are measured only by daring and effort and resolve."

Yes. I have expounded on this topic at some length. Wink
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