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Terribly disappointed by the ending :-( *spoiler*
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Sigh!] How about this - The Creator was there at the end; he was that Insequant like Charachter that was waving from underneath the Rainbow that he needed to slip into the Creation so he could pop in and have a quick pow-wow with Linden, TC and Jeremiah. He was able to do this because the Creation was no longer his and so the bar preventing him from acessing it was removed. Job done. [Trite but if we all try hard enough we can buy it].
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the Arch Of Time was the barrier, not some perceived ownership.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point about TC having a plan in WGW is a good one. I'll go even farther: it makes sense for him to be able to make plans around how Lord Foul is going to react, because he has come to learn that Foul is part of him. So being able to predict how Foul would react in the final scene of WGW was an act of self-knowledge. It's character development.

Having the sudden knowledge of how to remake a planet is orders of magnitude different, no matter how hard people try to lump these things together. The happy ending wasn't based on some character flaw in a Being who symbolizes the mother-of-all-character flaws. It literally comes out of nowhere. I don't care how many times you warn readers that a happy ending will come out of nowhere, it still feels cheap and easy once it happens. The issue here isn't how well it was foreshadowed, but instead how poorly this foreshadow was fulfilled. It doesn't come out of the characters' arcs, their development, like the previous foreshadowing did. This foreshadowing comes 100% from Donaldson knowing the end, not the characters themselves. They couldn't have predicted it. Granted, if you want to tell a story where people strive without knowing the outcome, that's fine. But when every character is expecting a miracle to happen, and then it does, how exactly is this a story about characters facing an unknown future? The way you tell that story is to have their expectations turn out wrong, while still deriving some meaning from the struggle nonetheless. If this is a story about having faith in miracles, and then having that faith being justified, then why not have the Creator save the day, instead of our hereos? Why was it so important for Donaldson to tell a story with a "human meaning" that had nothing to do with the Creator, if he was just going to make them all-powerful and all-knowing at the end? That's inhuman.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathistra, you said it better than I ever could. Bravo!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In WGW, they went into Mount Thunder having no idea whatsoever how to stop the Sunbane and save the Earth. Covenant did have an idea about what to do with Lord Foul.

In TLD, they went into Mount Thunder having no idea whatsoever about how to stop the Worm and save the Earth. Covenant did have an idea about what to do with Lord Foul.

In WGW, the means to save the Earth comes out of nowhere. Vain suddenly reveals that he and Findail can become the Staff, and how to finish it, and then the Staff reveals how to save the Earth.

In TLD, the means to save the Earth comes out of nowhere. Actually, all it is is realizing for oneself what is possible, but okay.

In WGW, saving the Earth means both Covenant and Linden completing their internal journey. It requires Covenant realizing he must die, and Linden realizing she isn't entirely evil.

In TLD, saving the Earth means both Covenant and Linden completing their internal journey. It requires Covenant completing his integration, and Linden rescuing her son.

In WGW, Covenant does not return to the real world.

In TLD, Covenant does not return to the real world.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
[... why in peoples oppinion did SRD include that bit about the rainbow at the end.]

Here's a few:
    - its shape. It's a kind of an arch

    - it echoes one of the creation myths. The one where the Creator makes a rainbow but a flaw in it causes his bright children to be trapped within the universe of the world of the Land. (Thanks for reminding me of this, Vraith! Laughing )

    - it's white light broken into its constituent colours (analgous to white gold as an alloy)

    - its symbolism for faithfulness and a new covenant (which is my favourite! Laughing ) after a world-destroying event.

No doubt there are others, that SRD chap can be quite clever!

u.

[EDIT: to include a very obvious reason for the rainbow Embarassed ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vain + Findail = Staff of Law certainly didn't "come out of nowhere." This is an illusion created by an author who depends upon "Ignorance (in this case, ours) as a Plot Device." The healing of the Sunbane came from the plans of the Elohim, the Ur-viles, and Covenant's Dead. This is the opposite of instant knowledge of how to rebuild a world. It's lore of the lore-wise, prescience of the Dead, and machinations of the "gods" (angels?) of this world. One could expect the freakin' Elohim to have a plan to save the Land. One would not expect a leper, a doctor, and a kid from our world to instantly know how to do so once they solve their personal character tensions.

It is not the same. I don't understand why it's so hard for some to see the difference.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Vain + Findail = Staff of Law certainly didn't "come out of nowhere." This is an illusion created by an author who depends upon "Ignorance (in this case, ours) as a Plot Device." The healing of the Sunbane came from the plans of the Elohim, the Ur-viles, and Covenant's Dead. This is the opposite of instant knowledge of how to rebuild a world. It's lore of the lore-wise, prescience of the Dead, and machinations of the "gods" (angels?) of this world. One could expect the freakin' Elohim to have a plan to save the Land. One would not expect a leper, a doctor, and a kid from our world to instantly know how to do so once they solve their personal character tensions.

It is not the same. I don't understand why it's so hard for some to see the difference.


It's clear to me: you repair the Arch, which is really mostly what they did. What then? Linden all ready has experience healing the Land after WGW and Jeremiah's innate ability is to see how things fit together (and he now has the massive knowledge stores of a Raver). The Elohim are helping out, and after accepting all this, it is somehow unbelievable that the World was fixed (not remade, it was never completely broken)?

Seems like an objection for the sake of objecting to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's objecting because I have a freakin objection to the story. Your criticism of my motivations for objecting, on the other hand, can't possibly be based on this book. So what's the point of your criticism of my motivations? Objecting for the sake of objecting?

I'm talking about a book. Stop talking about me and my motivations.

The reason I have an objection to way this story ended (if that's not clear already) is because it seemed too easy, wasn't earned, came out of no where, and didn't proceed from a carefully-crafted character development like we've been used to getting in the previous 2 Chronicles.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
It's objecting because I have a freakin objection to the story. Your criticism of my motivations for objecting, on the other hand, can't possibly be based on this book. So what's the point of your criticism of my motivations? Objecting for the sake of objecting?

I'm talking about a book. Stop talking about me and my motivations.

The reason I have an objection to way this story ended (if that's not clear already) is because it seemed too easy, wasn't earned, came out of no where, and didn't proceed from a carefully-crafted character development like we've been used to getting in the previous 2 Chronicles.


I gave a couple "based on book" criticism of your objections and observed that to me, it seems that you do not have a leg to stand on aside from "well, I didn't like the ending".

Of course, since I said that it gives you an opportunity to ignore my arguments and just regurgitate yours. Thus vomited Zarathustra, huh? Throwup
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's stay on topic, please.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
Vain + Findail = Staff of Law certainly didn't "come out of nowhere." This is an illusion created by an author who depends upon "Ignorance (in this case, ours) as a Plot Device." The healing of the Sunbane came from the plans of the Elohim, the Ur-viles, and Covenant's Dead. This is the opposite of instant knowledge of how to rebuild a world. It's lore of the lore-wise, prescience of the Dead, and machinations of the "gods" (angels?) of this world. One could expect the freakin' Elohim to have a plan to save the Land. One would not expect a leper, a doctor, and a kid from our world to instantly know how to do so once they solve their personal character tensions.

It is not the same. I don't understand why it's so hard for some to see the difference.


It's clear to me: you repair the Arch, which is really mostly what they did. What then? Linden all ready has experience healing the Land after WGW and Jeremiah's innate ability is to see how things fit together (and he now has the massive knowledge stores of a Raver). The Elohim are helping out, and after accepting all this, it is somehow unbelievable that the World was fixed (not remade, it was never completely broken)?

Seems like an objection for the sake of objecting to me.


Except the "for the sake of objecting" part, I'm with you in general.
Z, you are reducing to the absurd in the same way that the "utopia" thread did. Your summary of facts/events/text is false.
The "leper" ain't just some leper...he has been a conscious part/expression of a fundamental force of the universe for AT LEAST thousands of years...even if his memories post-death to pre-resurrection are gone, he still has a helluva lot of memory and experience of other powers and BEING a power incarnate.
The "doctor" isn't just some geek-waif without experience, power, battles, knowledge, and struggles. And not just MINOR/personal interactions/events of those...conflicts and interactions with near-god powers.
The "kid" has been wandering the world witnessing [and under assault, and being used/taught] for almost as long, with powers equally potent.
There is nothing unearned.
There is nothing "easy" about it.
It sure didn't "come out of nowhere."
It DID come out of character development...I don't think TC, Linden, or Jerry [not to mention the characters those characters LEARNED from, like Stave] are stagnant in any demonstrable way.

I'd like to know where you got the impression that every character was expecting a miracle. Cuz what I read, almost everyone was surely HOPING for a miracle, [some more cheerily/optimistically than others]... but almost no one was EXPECTING one...they expected to die.

There're other things from this and other threads...but at least part of what seems to offend is because the Char's are "inhuman" at the end, then the story/point/solution is inhuman [and that the solution doesn't address/answer the entropy question...part of the Worm thing].
But I see the ending as RESTORING the "human" to the world.
Just one example...you one can grieve and be weak, despair even, for a moment [or a lifetime perhaps], fully HUMAN things and not be immediately vulnerable to "Corruption." Being enraged because your brother dies doesn't immediately transform and prepare you to be the perfect host-in-waiting for any passing Raver.
I said elsewhere that the "utopia" peeps are upset about is nothing but a respite...the text explicitly forbids utopia.
I also said somewhere something resembling, and now I'm even more convinced, that the problem wasn't what to do about natural death/endings. It's about UN-natural death, murder, infection.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, I'm a newbie to this board, but I noticed no newbies were posting over on the specific newbie thread on the Summonsing page. I just finished TLD yesterday.

I think I can get the objections that some have stated, but I don't really share them. Vraith, I think you explained very well how Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah could have the ingrained knowledge of how to repair the Arch of Time and the Earth. I would have liked a blow-by-blow description similar to how Linden heals the Land from the Sunbane, but maybe Donaldson was in a hurry to get it out in 2013.

My problem actually goes all the way back to the end of WGW. See, I never fully bought into the idea that Foul is just a part of Covenant. Where does that leave the Creator? In LFB, we are introduced to the idea that Foul is a wayward brother or son of the Creator's heart. At the very end of TPTP, the Creator pretty much confirms that Foul is HIS enemy, and that He chose Covenant for his world in the hopes that Covenant would choose to save it. But then at the end of WGW, Covenant decides that no, the Despiser is actually a piece of himself. In fact, Covenant's ability to interpose himself between Foul and the Arch and absorb Foul's blasts seems built on that idea. Otherwise, how could Covenant absorb not only all the power Foul's able to generate from the ring, but almost all of Foul's native life force, to the point that Foul is reduced to nearly nothing, and needs millenia to recover enough to try again?

So the ending of WGW was a bit dissatisfying for me. But now again, in TLD, we are told that Foul is just a flip side of Covenant, just his own inner Despiser, and he becomes whole and healed when he takes him in. Fine. If we assume that, then it follows that Covenant can hold Foul within him, indefinitely if need be, and that when Covenant finally dies, Foul will die with him.

But that conclusion is contradicted by so much else. Even if you want to say that Covenant's self-Despite, in response to his leprosy, created Foul in this other world, you have to accept that this occurred retroactively. The world of the Land predates Covenant's birth by a wide margin, allowing for the time ratio between the two world (roughly 300 to 1). This is a bit much for me to accept. And it's clear that Foul has far more force at least, than Covenant does, even if he somehow finds himself unable or unwilling to destroy Covenant (he kills Covenant's body in WGW, but doesn't extinguish his spirit). Also, where do the Lords get the idea that Foul was the brother of the Creator's heart? Does the Theomach say it to Berek? If so, where does he get it from? From the Elohim? Wouldn't they be in the best position to know the truth? Why would that version of reality be written into the stories of the Land if there were no truth to it? Even the Reed of the Clave has truth in it, though distorted.

I think if you say the Despiser is an aspect of Covenant, then you're forced to say that the Creator is as well. In which case, the whole world is a creation of Covenant's subconscious mind, yet one in which Linden and Jeremiah, and even Roger and Joan, apparently share. If not, then it should be the Creator who takes the Despiser into his heart when the Arch's collapse enables him to do so. During that moment, he could also imbue Covenant with healing and the knowledge he needs to repair the Arch. Then we could safely say that Foul's done for good and all.

As it stands, it seems to me like Covenant's acting as the Creator's agent, holding the Despiser, the wayward brother of the Creator's heart, in the prison of Covenant's own being, yet this seems untenable. The Despiser doesn't seem even to be as reduced here as he is at the end of each of the first two Chronicles, unless I'm seriously missing something. Covenant's lore and power could give him a lifespan like that of the old Lords, and in that time, the Despiser could well threaten to take him over, and then use his ring to blast through the Arch and escape. Meanwhile, moksha is still around with no other purpose in life but to do everything he can think of to shake Covenant's control so that the Despiser can take him over. For that matter, if the Despiser is really just a part of Covenant, that would solve the problem of not being able to kill Covenant without killing himself. He just takes Covenant's spirit with him into eternity. But if Foul's really independent of Covenant, he just slips out when Covenant dies naturally, and goes right back to work.

It almost sounds like Donaldson isn't quite sure he's done with that world, and may want to revisit it, even though he called this series, "The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant."
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
peter wrote:
[... why in peoples oppinion did SRD include that bit about the rainbow at the end.]

Here's a few:
    - its shape. It's a kind of an arch

    - it's white light broken into its constituent colours (analgous to white gold as an alloy)

    - its symbolism for faithfulness and a new covenant (which is my favourite! Laughing ) after a world-destroying event.

No doubt there are others, that SRD chap can be quite clever!

u.


I'll ruminate on these U., over a bag of candyfloss and a stick of rock. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of in the middle on several issues here. I'll happily agree with Z that the ending did largely "come out of nowhere" and as such could be seen as having an inappropriate suddenness without foundation. However, separately I also find myself agreeing with V when he points out that all the main protagonists were expecting to die, and yet all the while refusing to give up hope for some sort of miracle.

I'm pretty convinced that the core problem stems from SRD's choosing (and God alone knows why - maybe Hurtloam's right to wonder if the ending had to be rushed for deadline reasons) not to give us any description of how the dynamic trio repaired the world, nor - and equally as importantly - how they were able to do so.

I've stated elsewhere that I find this intensely frustrating and feel almost cheated by such an omission. It's certainly not that SRD couldn't have managed it - he'd already proven himself to be able to write more than evocatively about the fracturing of time and reality when describing journeys through caesures, so this would definitely not have been beyond him. However, he leaves it up to his reader to surmise as to how the terrific threesome were able to accomplish such... Rolling Eyes

Again I'll agree with V here in his supposition. Covenant - who already has been part of the Arch for millennia, plus who has command of all the power of his rightfully possessed white gold ring - has all of a sudden all of Lord Foul's eons-long knowledge of the lore behind the Arch of Time. Similarly Jeremiah - who already has an innate talent for knowing how fragments of things can be made to fit together, plus who has command of the Staff of Law - has all of a sudden learned a lot more about lore and power via his vanquishing of moksha raver. Finally Linden - who already has healed the Land once and restored the natural order of things by curing it of the Sunbane, plus who has command of all the power of her own rightfully possessed white gold ring - has all of a sudden been given a massive insight into the power of redemption by her releasing of SWMNBN and all Her victims.

On that basis, it's not too much of a reach IMHO to be able to assume that TC's raw power and knowledge, combined with Jerry's ability to piece things together, were capable of gluing the disparate moments of broken Time and pieces of shattered Matter together, especially when bolstered by Linden's more nurturing healing focus. And of course two white gold rings and the Staff of Law. So to me, it doesn't contravene the narrative logic already set up by the author. I can kind of envisage TC holding onto all the pieces of Time and Matter to prevent them from exploding apart forever, while Jerry grabs them one by one and fits them back together, and Linden ensures that such outpouring of power doesn't annihilate all things once and for all.

However, is this creator-esque ability to fix the World in any way foreshadowed? Partly yes but largely no. Z, I think what bugs you - apart from SRD's odd and irritating refusal to go into any descriptive detail whatsoever - is that there indeed *is* a large element of "all of a sudden-ness", which goes directly to your point about SRD's usage of ignorance as a plot device. The thing surely is that, within the last 50 pages or so of TLD, all three central characters undergo an abrupt and massive transfiguration, as they face their own personal crises - they all become far more than they were. TC subsumes LF, Jerry overcomes moksha and Linden redeems SWMNBN. This triple event of conquering - or at least resolving - one's personal demons is exactly IMO what enables the Fantastic Three to repair the cosmos... but yes, all three events do come all of a sudden and coincidentally, near-on simultaneously. I can understand exactly why that might grate and feel forced. It very definitely represented the sudden miracle that they'd all been hoping for.

However, and as I said at the start of this post, if SRD had decided to give his readership maybe even only two pages worth of depiction as to what his superheroes were doing and how they were able to do it, there would be less discomfort at the abruptness of the ending and substantially fewer disappointed and irritated fans out there.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:

The "leper" ain't just some leper...he has been a conscious part/expression of a fundamental force of the universe for AT LEAST thousands of years...even if his memories post-death to pre-resurrection are gone, he still has a helluva lot of memory and experience of other powers and BEING a power incarnate.
The "doctor" isn't just some geek-waif without experience, power, battles, knowledge, and struggles. And not just MINOR/personal interactions/events of those...conflicts and interactions with near-god powers.
The "kid" has been wandering the world witnessing [and under assault, and being used/taught] for almost as long, with powers equally potent.
There is nothing unearned.
There is nothing "easy" about it.
It sure didn't "come out of nowhere."
Granted, Covenant was the Timewarden, and had knowledge from his participation in the Arch. But for most of his time back as a mortal man, that knowledge has been closed off to him. Getting it all back at the crucial moment was easy and unearned. We went from a barrier to all that knowledge, to opening the flood gates to an existence which he no longer experiences, instantaneously. I don't see how accepting his destructive side (LF) gives him instant access to how to Create. I understand that chaos and destruction are in some sense necessary to the process of creation, but the guy operating the wrecking ball doesn't necessarily have the knowledge of the engineer who designed the building.

I understand that Linden has done some amazing things, but most of those have been accomplished with her innate relationship to the Staff. She doesn't have that anymore, when she participates in Creation. She has his ex-wife's wedding ring, and a new power she barely understands. What else?

Jeremiah is good at building stuff. That doesn't equate to a god-like power to rebuild a world. There is only a thematic similarity here, which does not rise to the degree necessary to fend off my "easy" and "out of nowhere" criticisms. I'm talking a difference of degree, and this is merely a similarity of type.

Vraith wrote:

I'd like to know where you got the impression that every character was expecting a miracle. Cuz what I read, almost everyone was surely HOPING for a miracle, [some more cheerily/optimistically than others]... but almost no one was EXPECTING one...they expected to die.
Well, we have Marhtiir's often repeated slogan. But I don't see much difference between hoping for a miracle--and acting on that hope--and expecting a miracle. For instance, if Linden didn't expect to find a solution to the Worm's advance by going back in time, she wouldn't have gone. To say that she didn't have any other choice, and just did the only thing she could have done, would be a failure of imagination.

Vraith wrote:

...I see the ending as RESTORING the "human" to the world.
I think it's great that others can see things like this, but none of the posts here have shown me how that's true. You're simultaneously arguing that it's perfectly reasonable for a kid, a leper, and a doctor to have earned the knowledge to remake a world, and yet their act restores the human to the world? How does "a conscious part/expression of a fundamental force of the universe for AT LEAST thousands of years" have anything to do with being human? If it makes sense for these characters to have super-human powers, then it doesn't make sense to call them human anymore. Saying that they're not just a doctor, or just a leper, or just a kid--and then supplimenting this ordinariness with transcendental characteristics--seems the same as saying they're not just human.

Hurtloam, you make some good points about Covenant/Foul. It has always been the case that this relationship is symbolic. But as soon as the figurative divide has collapsed, we're left with a literal identification. That invites us to think of all this in literal terms, just as you've done, and in those terms it doesn't make much sense. The symbolic nature preserved the ambiguity enough to leave room for things like plot holes and logical impossibilities. But a literal one-to-one relationship means we can no longer ignore those. Good point.

We can also wonder why Covenant had to accept Foul, instead of fight him. Thematically, I understand why accepting Foul is the culmination of the three-Chronicle saga, but the literal reason in the plot for why Covenant can't fight Foul has always been that using enough wild magic to kill Foul will destroy the Arch. But that logic flies out the window once the Arch is already destroyed. There's no longer any danger. One quick, ultimate blast, and he's gone, then repair the world.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Vraith wrote:

The "leper" ain't just some leper...he has been a conscious part/expression of a fundamental force of the universe for AT LEAST thousands of years...even if his memories post-death to pre-resurrection are gone, he still has a helluva lot of memory and experience of other powers and BEING a power incarnate.
The "doctor" isn't just some geek-waif without experience, power, battles, knowledge, and struggles. And not just MINOR/personal interactions/events of those...conflicts and interactions with near-god powers.
The "kid" has been wandering the world witnessing [and under assault, and being used/taught] for almost as long, with powers equally potent.
There is nothing unearned.
There is nothing "easy" about it.
It sure didn't "come out of nowhere."
Granted, Covenant was the Timewarden, and had knowledge from his participation in the Arch. But for most of his time back as a mortal man, that knowledge has been closed off to him. Getting it all back at the crucial moment was easy and unearned. We went from a barrier to all that knowledge, to opening the flood gates to an existence which he no longer experiences, instantaneously. I don't see how accepting his destructive side (LF) gives him instant access to how to Create. I understand that chaos and destruction are in some sense necessary to the process of creation, but the guy operating the wrecking ball doesn't necessarily have the knowledge of the engineer who designed the building.

I understand that Linden has done some amazing things, but most of those have been accomplished with her innate relationship to the Staff. She doesn't have that anymore, when she participates in Creation. She has his ex-wife's wedding ring, and a new power she barely understands. What else?

Jeremiah is good at building stuff. That doesn't equate to a god-like power to rebuild a world. There is only a thematic similarity here, which does not rise to the degree necessary to fend off my "easy" and "out of nowhere" criticisms. I'm talking a difference of degree, and this is merely a similarity of type.

Vraith wrote:

I'd like to know where you got the impression that every character was expecting a miracle. Cuz what I read, almost everyone was surely HOPING for a miracle, [some more cheerily/optimistically than others]... but almost no one was EXPECTING one...they expected to die.
Well, we have Marhtiir's often repeated slogan. But I don't see much difference between hoping for a miracle--and acting on that hope--and expecting a miracle. For instance, if Linden didn't expect to find a solution to the Worm's advance by going back in time, she wouldn't have gone. To say that she didn't have any other choice, and just did the only thing she could have done, would be a failure of imagination.

Vraith wrote:

...I see the ending as RESTORING the "human" to the world.
I think it's great that others can see things like this, but none of the posts here have shown me how that's true. You're simultaneously arguing that it's perfectly reasonable for a kid, a leper, and a doctor to have earned the knowledge to remake a world, and yet their act restores the human to the world? How does "a conscious part/expression of a fundamental force of the universe for AT LEAST thousands of years" have anything to do with being human? If it makes sense for these characters to have super-human powers, then it doesn't make sense to call them human anymore. Saying that they're not just a doctor, or just a leper, or just a kid--and then supplimenting this ordinariness with transcendental characteristics--seems the same as saying they're not just human.

Hurtloam, you make some good points about Covenant/Foul. It has always been the case that this relationship is symbolic. But as soon as the figurative divide has collapsed, we're left with a literal identification. That invites us to think of all this in literal terms, just as you've done, and in those terms it doesn't make much sense. The symbolic nature preserved the ambiguity enough to leave room for things like plot holes and logical impossibilities. But a literal one-to-one relationship means we can no longer ignore those. Good point.

We can also wonder why Covenant had to accept Foul, instead of fight him. Thematically, I understand why accepting Foul is the culmination of the three-Chronicle saga, but the literal reason in the plot for why Covenant can't fight Foul has always been that using enough wild magic to kill Foul will destroy the Arch. But that logic flies out the window once the Arch is already destroyed. There's no longer any danger. One quick, ultimate blast, and he's gone, then repair the world.


It's not just The Kid, The Leper, and The Doctor, there's also The Guy Who Stuck His Nose In The Initial Making Of The World And Has Been Wandering It Ever Since.* Could he not have had some input into the rebuilding, especially if it meant he got to keep living, albeit inside Covenant.





* Now that's a helluva title. Gotta be something shorter than that ...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick point [and I'm almost ashamed to make it after all the effort you guys put into your posts]; I'm not sure the problem of not being given more detail about the {re}creation is a problem at all. It's just to big a thing to be written [and in fairness the same 'gloss' was given over Linden's healing of the Land after the Sunbane was vanquished]. No - the problem is centered about the Worm and how the thing was put back to sleep. Here we should have been given detail in spades - we earned it - and it was not forthcoming.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is absolutely my biggest problem also, but then there is much less gristle there to actually chew, so it's perhaps inevitable that any discussion veers away from that tack as soon as the first "The worm was sated! No it was not!" have been fired Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brief note to peter/u rainbow list thing....maybe in scanning my eyes missed something, but I think you both neglected the one that might matter most, if it matters at all: the origin-story rainbow from way back. And notice this one doesn't have a flaw/gap in it.

Zarathustra wrote:

Vraith wrote:

...I see the ending as RESTORING the "human" to the world.
I think it's great that others can see things like this, but none of the posts here have shown me how that's true. You're simultaneously arguing that it's perfectly reasonable for a kid, a leper, and a doctor to have earned the knowledge to remake a world, and yet their act restores the human to the world? How does "a conscious part/expression of a fundamental force of the universe for AT LEAST thousands of years" have anything to do with being human? If it makes sense for these characters to have super-human powers, then it doesn't make sense to call them human anymore. Saying that they're not just a doctor, or just a leper, or just a kid--and then supplimenting this ordinariness with transcendental characteristics--seems the same as saying they're not just human.

I agree that they aren't "just" human any more. [were they ever really, at least once they crossed over? Maybe...but they were at least outsiders.] And that is part of why I think what I do...from that, I follow a different path. Remember back in the day you and I and several others in several threads and contexts talking about Platonic, and Ideal realms, and Material realms and how they relate/interact...support and oppose each other.
To me, the resolution of the story happens in different, but overlapping realms. What you see as them becoming more than human, or in-human, I see as them melding humanity INTO the inhuman. Wild Magic has a Soul, Law has a Heart, the Shape of the world has a Purpose. Yes, our heroes are now a bit more than human...but they're also much less than Divine [or Ideal]. And the effect of that is that all the humans in the world...[I include Giants, even the Elo and such, and all the peoples that matter, maybe even those nasty croyel as "human"]...these humans IN the world now live in a Human world.

[In some ways, I don't want to even call it "restoring" the human so much as "adding," and I wouldn't except I think the Creator MEANT for it to be human...but he ruined it with the trapping of LF and SHE. Another possibility is that the Creator knew he had to do what he did with LF. Cage him so that he could eventually be caged within a cage. It is necessary that he exist, but also necessary to prevent touching...which he could easily do if he were "outside" with the Creator [and/or SHE]].

Hell, is it fundamentally necessary that Ideal Evil/Despite/Destruction always be close enough to threaten and take us, while Good/Love/Creation is always out of our grasp.
Maybe it is.

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