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Can We Go There?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Can We Go There? Reply with quote

TLD starts off with Linden in exaltation..yet,,when it comes to Thomas and Linden consummating their marriage, the author says of it,,when they were done..huh?..no whoopiee, nothing,,just a ,,when they were done..I mean,,the imagination of this author on display as it has been for the last 40 some years and the extremes he goes to to squeeze every last drop of empathy out of us ,,when they were done...???? That section has got to be some of the driest humor ever from the author..WHEN THEY WERE FREEKIN DONE????? Clyme gets chopped up rite before our eyes Anele, Liand Esmer, Woodhelvens etc etc etc etc ETC,,and the one chance to vomit all over us the beauty of two souls giving each their own soul..alls we get is..when..they..were..done..

Now,call me what you want, but I'm not asking for soft porno or anything that explicit. The author's imagination imho is capable of far more than that. The Willow Tree and Bower will have to suffice for any metaphoric value beyond,,when thy were done.. Its a bit funny that Thomas is allowed a few leering looks and wants after the first time of ..when they were done. Whats pretty darn funny..is that the heights or extreme , taken to by having sex is completely ignored by the author. He doesn't have to tell us about that. Its all the other stuff of Humanity, being a Human Being, he has to remind us of. Thats darkly funny.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a sad fact that Americans are more comfortable with depictions of killing than depictions of fucking. Hell, just look at the words themselves. One of those is a "dirty" word, while the other is not. Sure, I could have chosen, "make love," but there's not even a "dirty" word I could have chosen for "murder." That word is as bad as it gets, for the worst thing a human can do to another, and yet we can say this word in almost any social context without feeling embarrassed.

While Donaldson may have thought that it would be gratuitous to add an explicit sex scene to the book--perhaps even intruding upon their privacy--I don't think it would have been any more gratuitous than exploding heads or eviscerated torsos. Nor would it be any more of an intrusion upon the private than the ubiquitous inner monologues to which we've been subjected.

I don't think it's funny, at all. I think it's sad. We got more description of Lena's rape than this consummation of marriage.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Can We Go There? Reply with quote

Telling point, Z.
lurch wrote:
TLD starts off with Linden in exaltation..yet,,when it comes to Thomas and Linden consummating their marriage, the author says of it,,when they were done..huh?..no whoopiee, nothing,,just a ,,when they were done..I mean,,the imagination of this author on display as it has been for the last 40 some years and the extremes he goes to to squeeze every last drop of empathy out of us ,,when they were done...????.....alls we get is..when..they..were..done..
This made me smile, since it's exactly mirrored later on, when TC accepts LF "into himself"... Shocked . Quote as follows:-
The Last Dark Chapter 12 wrote:
Opening his heart, he accepted Lord Foul the Despiser into humself.

<Break>

When it was done, Thomas Covenant turned to the people who had redeemed him.
I'm all of a sudden now wondering just what form such acceptance took? (Not really).

It's also echoed later still in the author's decision not to provide us with any description of the repairing of the World. All we get is "...rose like glory". Chapter Break. Wandering in Andelain. If you're perfectly okay with this latter, you can hardly complain about the former examples...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the idea of whats not there , does go back to again..knowledge we have that one of the protagonists doesn't . Its also key to the riddle/ mystery of Chapter 7. So perhaps the author is saying,,you go there, you figure it out..

Perhaps the author does see it as entirely personal and skips it, even in any poetic manifestation,,thereby..reinforcing the perception that these characters are..human..people, not just words on paper..He is showing them respect....?...

Maybe,,the author just doesn't have the words. Perhaps there are no words archaic or modern to do the act justice. Beyond words was Linden with her son coming out of the graveyard. Sex may have put the two,,both a long time coming, someplace where english isn't even spoken.. like beyond time and or space...?

Or as suggested, perhaps the author is having a bit of protest here and with a thud of, " when they were done'" gets the message across, that he isn't allowed by editor or publisher etc to do justice so he just drops it....?

I don't know. It sticks out like a red flag tho. While there are gentle segues thru out, this one is abrupt and without any poetry. Its strange..in and around this Honey Moon, there is a few weird things going on. I mean ,,nothing stands alone in this book .All is connected.. Jerry comes out of the fane ,,walks into the bushes then comes back. I think a giant also " takes a walk"..I don't remember ,but my point is the author seems to be alluding to relieving themselves, taking care of bodily functions...geesh, I hope the author doesn't see sex as just a bodily function. ..?

Or, maybe all of the above.. thru it all,,the Surrealist of me sees the unsaid and perceives " Mystery"..the unknown. Back to my first sentence in this post. Mystery for the sake of Mystery. Here, heres some Mystery, chew on it , have some fun with it , there is no wrong answer...and ..owwww,,this one hurts even my brain..the metaphor of...unspoken sex,,the mystery of sex,,alls we get to see of it is what it produces, what follows, the intimacies and flow of emotion and openness and concerns and....between two human beings. The Willow Tree and the Bower, nature,, The mysterious animal of us, delivering us to a " humanity",,delivering us to a state of mind of natural human " being"...

.I know its not direct nor linear..All of it going on around Linden and Thomas. Spherical,,ur-Mahrtiir song perhaps connecting all to all..Sex as metaphor and metaphor as sex....mental intercourse, metaphor, go find a motel room!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn’t really thought too much about this, but now that you all mention it, I was a bit stark. I did find it touching the way they finally committed themselves to each other, the marriage, the culmination and release of all that was left unsaid all this time, etc.. There was beauty in that, and SRD did it justice imho. Of course the “Act” must follow, and there was nothing conveyed that led us to believe it wasn’t intimate and beautiful, and yet it was always going to remain private. I don't know, it’s almost as if the perspective switched to the rest of the company waiting for them to be “done” so they could all figure out what happens next. No, that's not it.

While I admit I am a bit of an SRD apologist, I agree he should probably have done much better than "when they were done". Especially after "don't touch me" was the last thing they shared together before this. But oh well, I enjoyed the aftermath of their union, how they treated each other, the glances, the touches, the subtle intimacies conveyed. I guess their big moment was THEIR moment, not ours. But we clearly got to see what they have always meant to each other, that part is out in the open for all appreciate.

Hey, maybe the leprosy thing added a few complications SRD didn’t choose to deal with, so that whatever they did in fact do, when it was over, they were just “done”. Okay, I’m done.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..Perhaps funny..maybe even bold, striking, is the idea that the Cover Art..ur-Mahrtiir singing, willow tree with leafs gleaming,,and the added Bronze medallion with words.." The Climax of the entire THOMAS COVENANT CHRONICLES.." inside of it...that the Cover Art depicts metaphorically the consummation of the marriage. While TC and Linden where sharing themselves , what we see on the Cover Art was taking place.

Perhaps Donaldson did go there in a big way after all.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..and since we ,or at least I, am are already "there",,another observation ,,,In The Last Dark, Linden is nekkid before the reader twice. Early on she takes a bath and then again in the honeymoon suite scene. My memory isn't the best but I seem to think that is twice as much birthday suit than any other character of the chrons...yea, twice as much as any previous.

So, the author makes a statement . If you are going to base a 4 book story on a female character going the distance for Love..au natural is inevitable just in the " feminine" perspective of the key theme, LOVE.The nude female as metaphor for a natural state works. Or just a story about escaping the despair of the mundane, nekkid bodies may be of good service.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Swordmainnir bathed a great deal in AATE; a grandiose display of larger-than-life love and beauty! Which bulldozes a route to the question: Did the Haruchai blush, or act like Finns in the sauna?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darn, all this time I thought I had lived a full life and now you bring up this..".like Finns in a sauna..." ..uhhhmm,,Frostheart, would the words " proud" and "unabashed" be at all related to your simile of, " like Finns in a sauna" ?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Unabashed" sounds about right. Big Grin

Everyone ought to experience a proper sauna'ing at least once. And, should the season allow, roll in the snow naked or jump into an avanto afterwards.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
but there's not even a "dirty" word I could have chosen for "murder."


Oh I don't know Z. - you put 3 cartridges in a guys head and trust me - he's fucked! Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frostheart wrote:
The Swordmainnir bathed a great deal in AATE; a grandiose display of larger-than-life love and beauty! Which bulldozes a route to the question: Did the Haruchai blush, or act like Finns in the sauna?

Absolutely the latter. First of all, who can imagine any Haruchai blushing? They are stoic to the point of unflappability.

Second, consider what we know of their native culture when they lived in the Westron Mountains among their own kind (such a pity that SRD never created a female Haruchai character!); as strong-limbed and hot-blooded as we understand both genders to be in their homeland, surely they would not be disconcerted by the display of mere unclothed flesh with no erotic agenda underpinning it? Wouldn't they be as matter-of-fact as the Finn, or would they be prisoner of their passions or inhibitions like the Yank?

Really, the question answers itself. Wink

BTW, Frosty, I am SO happy to see you posting again! If I had anything to do with your latest hiatus with my impatience teasing, I apologize. I was playing on your own comments, but perhaps I pushed a bit beyond what you intended...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[]

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lots of good clean fun there
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently that attempt at "humor" failed epically. Sigh.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's sure not to generate any laughter, since no one can see it any longer.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Can We Go There? Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Now,call me what you want, but I'm not asking for soft porno or anything that explicit.


Nope, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

A bit of intensity, a bit of porn, a bit of unexpected bliss would have been just fine with me!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am actually much happier with the "action" off-screen, so to speak. I find 99% of graphic sexuality in books to be clumsy and hackneyed, and generally do a visual fast-forward to where the gasping ends.

I like sex, it is one of the chief joys of life. I am reminded of a half-gallon of low-fat mint chocolate chip ice cream I once bought. The chocolate chip replacements tasted like chocolate-impregnated cardboard, the ice cream like toothpaste-scented plaster of Paris. I decided if I'm gonna eat ice cream it might as well be Ben & Jerry's; and if I'm gonna have sex it's not going to be on paper. So I for one am thankful for SRD's choice of coyness. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well-said, deer.

Oh, and given the choice...the ice cream does not win.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes of course, yet I'm not sure about the .." choice of coyness " Deer...Its like..taking a standard fantasy slash and destroy and comparing it to what Donaldson has done to the genre' ,,and then saying he would go the way of cliche' if he explored the whooppie. ..I give Donaldson more than that. Because I give Donaldson more than the cliche , I can see the possibility that an editor or publisher etc,,decided not and thus we get the led footed lifeless.." when they were done"..and then realize the cover art is metaphor for the consummation...lmao....Coincidence??..imho, " when they were done" is not coincidence. In a book so alive with realizing choices with Hope , Love and Compassion.." when they were done" seems to have the death knell of the mundane about it. The line sticks out like a red flag in its betrayal.

..Its so obvious..that now I'm wrapped around the axle about it. Its no longer about " sex" per se. Is it a puzzle like "play" going on? Chapter 7 had its absent Time. What isn't said about the honeymoon is metaphored on the front cover ..??..Has the author intentionally busted the parameters of " space".?.. Maybe its the fact that two complete loooozers, a rotting leper and a emotionally crippled, victimized doctor, found love and shared it with each other, that is the point rather than the physical sex...??Maybe..the absence of any descriptive..is just an acquiescence to the Worm?..Its inevitability , a steamy sex scene wouldn't even forestall..? ..Perhaps..it is just a Mystery..Hope and Love .free of Time..in each other's Thrall..is beyond words..
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