Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

TLD Part I Chap 1: Betimes Some Wonder
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Group Readings -> Last Chronicles
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16702

Thanks: 35
Thanked 169 Times in 162 Posts


13958 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that's a lot to wade through. I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents on a point that I believe has been distorted in this discussion (and others).

The Haruchai certainly do not represent logic and reason. There's nothing logical about swearing a Vow to the Lords and then serving them for centuries without sleep or sex or death. That is a decision made on pure emotion: awe and respect at the grandeur of the Lords, and holding oneself to an extreme, inhuman standard of commitment and devotion.

There is nothing logical about taking an a small army into a new land just to see if anyone can kick your ass (Vizard story). That's about pride, confidence, self-assurance.

Those are just two examples; I could go on. The point is that the Haruchai are about extremes, taking an all-or-nothing attitude to life, not because it's logical but because they are so dogmatic and driven. They have to be the best, they have to fully commit, and if their service becomes "tainted," they give it up because they can't accept failure. If the Land doesn't have Lords, they must become Masters, and rule it absolutely. If Earthpower can be used poorly (sometimes), then they must suppress it completely. That's not logical. It's extreme and dogmatic.

Stave represents a change in this view ... not because he has emotions that the others don't have, but because he's willing to compromise on his convictions and beliefs, which is the opposite of dogmas and extreme positions.

Logic isn't the only thing that can be binary (actually, there are forms of logic that aren't binary). Emotion can be binary, too, if you fail to compromise or incorporate both of your Creative and Destructive sides. Good and Evil can be binary, if you don't also see the value of the pragmatic.

Trying to force a singular view absolutely upon a work of literature can lead to exactly the same kinds of problems: extremism, dogma, and failure to acknowledge the gray areas in between.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lurch
Swamp Thang

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 2671

Thanks: 12
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts

Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do
3746 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes,, the author drops the word " metaphor" in dialogue in Chapter 1, as Jerry talks about discussions he had with Thomas about the Elohim. The author also expresses a few good metaphors in chapter 1 as examples. I've pointed out some of them in my post.. I conclude that all, even the Haruchai, are metaphor..have metaphoric value.

So the traits , the words used to describe the Haruchai , their actions, their soul , etc describe, work, or can be shared by what else? The common descriptive of them is..Stoic..a person who can endure pain or hardship with out showing it..Common Logic of truth tables have no pain or hardship,,its black and white,,true or false. not heights of exaltation...A popular reference is the Spock character of Star Trek..Quite logical, but of no outward display of emotions.

We learned long ago in Gilden Fire, that when first witnessing Revelstone and its art treasures..rather than learn the craft,,,the Haruchai decided to take a Oath to Protect the Wonders of the Land..not create the Wonders of the Land. They don't require weapons because they Are Weapons..Again,,thats what Logic can do and can't do. aamm Logic as weapons,,I shouldn't have to point out around here.

Stave is the one at Lindens side,,telling her its time to go..its time to do, etc. While she is experiencing the exaltation, the beyond words extreme feeling of seeing Jerry out of his graveyard...there is Stave..good ole Stave,,reminding Linden that its time to...He can't get out of the box of linear progression Time and its necessary adjunct, Logic.

Its no distortion to say the author has frequently freed his characters from the Law, Logic, of Time and Space. Thats basically what the LC are about. Yet it remains to the Haruchai..to constantly try and pull Linden back to the requirements of Logical, linear Time. In a later chapter,,without Linden around and Time being hidden from him..its easy to perceive that Stave looses his mind and almost gets himself killed for it. The author wrote that, not me. He has made it easy to see the metaphor, if one is looking.

Its the extremity of their Oath that disturbs TC the most. With out feeling,,with out pain ,,with out hardship,,,or,,with out exaltation,,there is no humanity in them. ...So to is the perception of logic. Logic is true/ false..yes no..black/ white. The emotions of Logic is what? Even the mathematics of music, poetry, architecture, etc..requires something from the imagination, from the heart, the soul, to turn an idea into a work Art. ..And when confronted with the Great Works of Revelstone and all that inside of it...the Haruchai could only take an oath that denied them completely of their Humanity, their pain, their hardship, their feelings. A simple hug from Jerry was beyond Stave's ability to grasp.

So, there is Stave..his son dead,,down to one eye ( a great little metaphor in itself) his body torn in battle and mended by Linden almost countless times..to save him from certain death..pleading with Linden to be listened to..and by the end of the story..becomes happy or content as he acknowledges he will not be rising in Glory,,with TC, Linden and Jerry. Its pretty clear to me what the author is saying about the Haruchai and what they are metaphor of.
_________________
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16702

Thanks: 35
Thanked 169 Times in 162 Posts


13958 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurch, we'll have to agree to disagree. I acknowledge you have an interpretation that you're not going to change. I'm willing to be convinced, but I think the evidence in the text makes a better argument than you. The Haruchai never mention logic and reason. If someone is concerned with the ideas of logic/reason, they'll talk about them. They'll usually be obsessed with math and formal structures. Think how much Spock talks about logic or something being illogical. The Haruchai are concerned with Corruption (a moral concept), not violations of logic. They don't fear Linden because she's emotional or irrational, they fear her because she blurs the difference between Good and Evil by thinking good can sometimes be accomplished by evil means. Spock has little interest in morality, except in as much as he's half-human. It's certainly not his driving attitude.

Yes, they seem like stoics from the outside, but that's not because they are inherently logical; it's because they are so strict and extreme--an attitude characterized by pride and fidelity, a moral position. Logic isn't the only thing that can restrain emotions. It's not even the opposite of emotion. Some emotions are quite reasonable (like feeling gratitude for an act of kindness, or guilt for a wrongdoing). Repressing their emotions is much like their efforts at repressing uses of Earthpower: not because Earthpower is the opposite of logic, but because Earthpower can be messy. It's not always 100% good. It can be corrupted. They don't think Earthpower is inherently bad (just as emotions aren't inherently bad), but the possibility of corruption goes against their strict, absolutist, dogmatic moral stance. Logic isn't about morality. Logic is only about formal structure.

When Donaldson talks about reason, he mentions both its necessity and its abuse. In the GI, he mentions several times how much he appreciated the quote (approx.), "Reason is the circumference of passion." While this quote inspired him to invent the Oath of Peace, he interprets it more in terms of control than logic. What he means is that without discipline passion isn't controlled, but too much control can deny the passion (which kept the new Lords from unlocking Kevin's Wards). Discipline/control was also very important in the 2nd Chrons in terms of Covenant controlling his venom-enhanced wild magic. That control was never attempted by using reason, but sheer willpower and moral resolve. So even in Donaldson's vague use of "reason," he's certainly not saying that the point is to free ourselves from it in order to be human. That leads to loss of control that can destroy the world. At most, what he's saying is that reason is like "choosing wisely" or "choosing deliberately." He's certainly not talking about truth tables and binary logic (which not a single character uses or mentions). He's basically saying: "don't be rash in your actions. While your passion must guide you, you must still think before you act." And that was the point of Lord Mhoram's victory, his insight into the forces that made Desecration possible, which in turn unlocked the understanding to the power of the old Lords.

I must emphatically--but respectfully--disagree with your claim that the LC are "basically about" freeing characters from logic/space/time. At the least, this is only true in as much as any fantasy story involving magic bends the rules of literal existence, to an extent. And at the most, this story did involve an attack up on time. But that's just the genre in the first case, and the setting in the latter case. That's not what the story is about. It's about characters dealing with loss and trying find meaning/beauty in a world where all things are ending. Freeing one from time would completely invalidate that point, because nothing would have to end, and our struggles against decay and corruption would be meaningless. Our sacrifice and pain would be meaningless. Our humanity would be meaningless. I understand that you're very fond of surrealism, but trying to force the Chronicles to match your personal philosophy is distorting their meaning, and turning a dissection of a book into a sermon on surrealism. I admit that there are surreal features in this story, as there is in most fantasy, but that's because Donaldson has chosen a genre of "monsters and magic" to express our darkest and brightest potentials. These metaphors convey the message, but metaphor is not the message, no more than any other literary device is the message. It's about being human, not self-referential jokes.

You might be interested in reading his Essay on Epic Fantasy. He has already spelled out his "philosophy" for story-telling, and why he has chosen fantasy as his main genre. He doesn't mention surrealism. He talks about turning characters inside-out: a literary device for dramatizing internal conflicts on an external stage. I think the Chronicles are more clearly understood if we take the author's intentions as our starting point, rather than the intentions of another school of authors/painters/etc.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thanked by: TheFallen
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 1199

Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

Location: Guildford, UK
14676 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applaud Good Post

Cogently expressed and compellingly argued, Z. As you've pointed out, the haruchai are not cold and clinical robotic creatures, solely operating on pure logic, at all. We're told somewhere that at heart - as in their mountain homeland - they're quite the reverse and driven by the fiercest of passions.

Again as you say, there's nothing logical about the haruchai swearing an eternal oath of fealty to the Lords and eschewing sleep for a thousand years... any more than there is about tem going roaming about the place and seeing if there's anyone around who can vanquish them. In fact, there could hardly be anything less logical than either activity.

No, what the haruchai are, is self-repressed. Yes, they've quashed their emotions, keeping them entirely in check - but this doesn't make them logical, solely operating on the purest intellect. It does however make them seem cold, remote and ascetic - and yes, stoic as well. But again you're right to highlight that what they're bound by is not logic at all, but rather self-imposed moral strictures, and sadly ones that in the LCs turn out to be fundamentally flawed.
_________________
Newsflash... the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16702

Thanks: 35
Thanked 169 Times in 162 Posts


13958 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, thanks. I'm glad someone else thinks so. Like I said, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise ... but I think much of the fundamental concepts the Chronicles would come tumbling down if we go with that particular view. For instance, the Oath of Peace and Mhoram's victory, which might be viewed as the "moral of the story" for the 1st Chronicles.

The Haruchai don’t refrain from use of weapons because that’s the most logical way to fight in war. Granted, they're undeniably good with their hands and feet, but the fact is that it's quite a foolish way to fight a war (as they have finally come to realize, 1000s of years later). They only do so by a strict interpretation of a moral imperative. It’s tied to “use as little force as necessary,” part of the Oath of Peace ... an oath which most people interpreted by suppressing their emotions in order to avoid further Desecrations, thus diminishing the likelihood of utter despair and destructive rage (or Corruption). Everyone who took the Oath did this, but the Bloodguard took it to the extreme, becoming not only emotionally stunted, or suppressing only "bad" emotions, but taking it a step farther into stoicism.

Thus, since the Oath of Peace wasn’t about adopting logic, or being a symbol of it, we can say the same about the Haruchai’s repression of their emotions, because they did so for similar reasons. Bannor, after all, was the other “half” of Elena’s dualist sculpture that revealed to Mhoram the secret to Kevin’s lore, a study of which was hampered by the Oath (for just these reasons: suppressing emotion). So it’s no coincidence that this sculpture—and Mhoram’s solution—involved exactly the same tension in the Oath of Peace: passion vs control. Elena’s sculpture symbolized a unity of Covenant and Bannor, or wild magic and utter control of the Bloodguard, and thus illustrated the possibility of compromise between them.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lurch
Swamp Thang

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 2671

Thanks: 12
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts

Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do
3746 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metaphor...I didn't know Donaldson's metaphors had to conform to Z's Rules of Metaphor. I've pointed out traits of the Haruchai that are congruent with Logic..That there are numerous shared traits is sufficient for me. As the dissection progresses thru the chapters , there are plenty more examples in metaphor of the Haruchai being Logic. Please continue to insult me and the author with how a metaphor must behave to qualify under your rules. Thats correct,,I disagree. The author is in no way confined by your imposed rules of how and why a metaphor must be and behave.. And btw...Andre Breton's " Nadja" is considered the Original and Classic work of Surreal Literature. The word " surreal" does not appear in it once. Thats the whole point of metaphor..the whole point of..the message is in the metaphor. ..A painting by Dali or Magritte doesn't have little signs saying, I'm a metaphor for civil war or I'm a metaphor for lost love around the objects in the painting. You have to open yourself to the overall work to get it. Yes Surrealism is a personal experience. So, yes, what I get Should Be different from you or anybody else gets from a work of Art. Thats the beauty, the Hope..we all add our experience to the whole, enriching the Whole and Us in the process. win win. But first you have to be liberated by the metaphor,,not restrained by it, not in fear of it.

A continuous theme brought right to the surface in TLD, is freeing the mental habits of thinking and perceiving so one can grasp the multitude of choices beyond the mundane..exaltation kinda like. ..Linden's breaking of the Law of Time is The Example of escaping the Box..freeing oneself from the parameters, from the imposed box , from the habits that make the mundane comfortable. Each of the authors metaphors exercise the,," multitude of choices.. They begin easy and get better and more challenging as the pages turn. By the end ,,all is metaphor, all is figurative. The " structure" of Logic is gone, done away with, by end of story. You and others harp on the point of the ending being cheap,unsatisfactory, etc..Its obvious to me ,the metaphor,,free of your " required Logic"..escapes you. The author is all about liberating from the " structure" of Logic. His 3 protagonists by end,,do liberate themselves from the encumbrances, the restraints, the structure of Logic.And Stave does NOT rise in Glory with them.

The bigger idea to grasp..is the one of,,multitude of choices..freeing perception and how we think so we can see the multitude of choices..The Haruchai,,,by their own words..are Choice Challenged. The severity of their Oath makes them Choice Limited,,just as the structure of Logic leads to being Right or Wrong,,or True or False. The authors suggestion is ..our Humanity,,what it is to be a Human Being,,is in the 3rd choice, or fourth choice or etc etc...We are far more than binary , right or wrong, beings. The " structure" of Logic actually makes Us divided , true false, conflicted beings . Liberating our selves from the habit of the " structure" of Logic allows us the opportunity to become Whole, unified, and possibly eventually at peace with ourselves.

In the opening of Chapter 1, Stave pleads to Linden, " will you not harken to me?" Exactly right..Its Stave who needs to harken to Linden and Jerry,,and while he tries,,he simply cannot succeed because that is Not who he is..His abilities are limited by his " structure'
_________________
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 1199

Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

Location: Guildford, UK
14676 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to bow out at this point with a final few comments.

Firstly, I don't think anyone's defined "how a metaphor must behave" in the least. Metaphor's a tool used by artists in all sorts of media - sure, the Surrealists used it, but it sure wasn't exclusive to them. So did the Symbolists, the Expressionists and even the Romantics (bless 'em), plus a whole host of others. The usage of metaphor alone does not a Surrealist work make... it's just a tool that the Surrealists among many others felt both appropriate and central to giving voice to their metaphysics.

Having studied Bréton in the original French, forgive me but I don't see any close correlation of either philosophy or even technique between Nadja or L'Amour Fou or any other Bréton work I've ever read and the LCs - sure, SRD uses metaphor and symbol, but then again so does every artist that isn't into pure monofaceted literalism (or photo-realism, if you'd rather). Metaphor is inevitably central to any type of allegory - no matter what message or philosophy such allegory is intended to convey.

I don't disagree entirely with your thematic assessment, Lurch. There are indeed clear elements of liberation within the LCs - Stave frees himself from the rigid black and white strictures of the haruchais' long-ingrained (and fallacious) way of thinking, but that's his shucking off of flawed moral strictures. Linden also obviously liberates herself from the self-loathing and self-doubt that has plagued her into inaction for so long and Jeremiah's liberation from his internal graveyard could of course not be more recognisable. But then again TC does quite the opposite. He melds himself eternally with his darker alter ego...

So I'd say it's about becoming complete, rather than rejecting logic. Eschew the elements of one's psyche that are negatively restrictive and holding one back from becoming a whole and healthy individual, but accept those where it's going to be forever futile to go to battle against them.

It's a bit like that old serenity prayer...

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, (TC)
Courage to change the things I can change, (Linden, Jerry)
And wisdom to know the difference."

By attempting to hammer everything you find in the LCs in an effort to jam it into a mold of Surrealism, I actually think you're doing the author a disservice.

Anyhow, 'nuff said and as always, vive la différence.
_________________
Newsflash... the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
lurch
Swamp Thang

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 2671

Thanks: 12
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts

Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do
3746 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the author did the right thing by starting TLD with metaphor and staying on point with the metaphor concept and execution in Chapter 1. He lets any reader know first thing, what is going on. So if a reader has been laboring under pretense and false assumption about the Chronicles for the last so many years,,the correction or Change in perspective can be accommodated right here and now in Chapter 1. The author is being very kind imho. And in a way, the rest of part 1, is a tutorial or mentoring on the New Perspective, New Choices that Linden certainly goes thru, therefore We go thru...Another dimension to the " intimacy" I've brought up, is perhaps in there.
_________________
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18419

Thanks: 11
Thanked 198 Times in 181 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41399 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of clarification: the Bloodguard didn't take the Oath of Peace.

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
"And the Bloodguard have spoken a Vow which is not in any way like our Oath. They have sworn to serve the Lords and Revelstone - to preserve us against any threat by the strength of their fidelity. [...] Left to the dictates of their Vow, the Bloodguard would slay you instantly if you raised your hand against any Lord - yes, against any inhabitant of Revelstone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
lurch
Swamp Thang

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 2671

Thanks: 12
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts

Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do
3746 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, beating the crap out of anything that so much as farts in the direction of a Lord, pretty much concludes they didn't take the Oath of Peace. ..yes? ,,And they don't lie,,well,,knowingly mislead ..except maybe that little non mention of the Vizard having his way with them,,Thats one of the beauties of the LC..is the dawning of the realization that they have been mis lead,,by their own BS. Such is Logic when used to find ones Humanity.
_________________
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
deer of the dawn
On a mission from God

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 5843

Thanks: 48
Thanked 53 Times in 51 Posts

Location: Jos, Nigeria
8696 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Soaring Woodhelvin1 Oath of Peace1 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am usually a peacemaker and hate conflict and confrontation but feel we should be able to dialogue, not diatiribe, the dissection; so here is my $.02.

I have to agree with Z that it is dogma, not strictly logic, that defines the Haruchai. Their actions are logical in view of their dogma, but that is not Logic per se. When people talk about something being "taken to a logical extreme", that is how the Haruchai behave.

It's only semantics, really; and not a hill I'm going to die on, or willing to sacrifice a relationship for. Smile

wayfriend wrote:
It's easy, I think, to pass over what is revealed in this chapter, because it's not revelatory any more. But I sure as heck would like to dive into the details, if only to pin down the sources of these ideas.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“Using those bones”—he gestured behind him—“was the second time I managed to make a—I don’t know what else to call it—a door for my mind. That racetrack was the first."

Jeremiah always had the power to free his mind. He had done so, in a smaller way, before Runes began, with the racetrack.

And it was he himself that brought himself to the Land. Not Foul. His visits were innocent of Foul's plotting.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
But giving me those racetrack pieces was like a miracle. I don’t know how you came up with the idea, but it was perfect.

It is worth noting that Linden unwittingly handed Jeremiah the key to his escape. It is significant when you consider that Linden had similarly unwittingly handed Joan they key to creating caesures that threatened Time.


LOVE this!! I hadn't juxtaposed the two in my mind, but there it is. Score.

Quote:

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“He told me I could count on you. Like I didn’t know that already. If I needed you, you would do anything to help me, even if it was impossible. He said you have no idea how strong you really are. He said it makes you wonderful.”

Certainly Covenant never had anything but faith in Linden. It makes me wonder how anyone could not, with such a strong lead to follow.

But does a statement like this imply that Covenant believed that Linden would be coming to the Land before she came? Or does it only indicate faith that Linden would eventually reach and heal her damaged son?

Hope.

"Tell me, just where the hell do you get hope?"
"From faith."

Covenant had faith in Linden. From that was born his hope.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“And he talked about the Elohim. I didn’t really understand, but I think he was trying to explain why they’re important. They’re like a metaphor? A symbol? They represent the stars. Or maybe they are the stars. Or maybe the stars and the Elohim are like shadows of each other. The shadows of the Creator’s children.”

When I first read this, I was appalled at the use of the term "metaphor". It seemed a little sloppy. But upon reflection, I now see that this terminology is not Donaldson's, but Jeremiah's, reflecting his imperfect understanding in the language of our world, not the language of the Land.

Lol. Teenagers love to flaunt their newly-acquired ability to think abstractly, using words like "metaphor" every 5 minutes.

Quote:
Anyway ... this re-introduces us to the connection between the Elohim and the stars. Something that will be important later in the story. And something which had been foreshadowed since we first met those fickle faeries.

Quote:
And, as seems likely, if the Worm is also the Würd of the Earth, and the Elohim are also the Würd of the Earth, then the Elohim are much more involved with the Arch of Time than we have seen to date. I cannot help thinking of the Elohimfest, and that the Elohim are the stars, caught in the Wounded Rainbow, devoured by the Worm, and trapped in the Arch; children of the Creator, living peoples of the heavens, and direct offspring of creation. By uniting the Worm and the Arch, we also unite the Elohim with the Creator.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“I probably shouldn’t admit this,” she offered tentatively, “but I almost panicked when I saw Revelstone and Mount Thunder in the living room. I came close to taking you and running.” She still believed that she should have done so. “Then neither of us would have been shot.”

“And we wouldn’t be here to fight for the Land,” Jeremiah put in at once.

This is really, really important.

It's more than just Jeremiah's capacity for sacrifice and service, that he was willing to be shot and killed in order to have a chance to save the Land.

It's the whole Last Chronicles in a nut-shell. Was it really a mistake for Linden to not have run when she had the chance? Do we judge this by the information she had at the time, or by the consequences that could not have been forseen?

Do people make mistakes? Or are they merely choices that they live with? Can they be bad if they lead to good? Aren't we the sum of what we choose and how we cope with the choice?

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“So I wanted to warn you. Legos were the only language I had.”

And this is where Lego Revelstone and Lego Mount Thunder came from. They weren't a threat, they were a warning. They weren't in danger, they weren't containing danger. They were just special, which Jeremiah had on the word of the Timewarden. Things could happen there that might frustrate Lord Foul. So, in a way, the Lego constructions were Covenant's warning.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
He flashed a grin at her. “Sure, Mom. I’ve been listening to you my whole life. I could probably hear you if you whispered half a mile away.”

The best for Last. Jeremiah had been listening to Linden his whole life.

Covenant had assured her, None of the love you lavished on your son was wasted. This wasn't an assumption. This wasn't just a hope. He knew.

Jeremiah is Linden's son.

Which, after years and years of dedication and effort and trying, Linden has just now, finally, FINALLY, discovered that it all paid off.

In spades.

Yeah. This is Linden's big moment.

Hail Yes! Well said, wayfriend.
_________________
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2864 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: TLD Part I Chap 1: Betimes Some Wonder Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
The Last Dark

Part One "to bear what must be borne"

Chapter 1 Betimes Some Wonder


And before I go any further, there may be..or may be not..a Shakespearean allude like I've found in the other books of the LC's. I've already posted on the " Betimes" used in the chapter title and the Betimes MacBeth variety of tomato ,
elsewhere.( see "Out, damn Donaldson, Out!" thread)I'm convinced of it well enough for an " Indeed". Can I get a 2nd?



Cord Hurn wrote:


Considering SRD earned an M.A. in English, he has no doubt been familiarized with Shakespeare on numerous occasions. And his short story "By Any Other Name" takes its title from a line in Romeo and Juliet. I'm not familiar enough with MacBeth to give you an "Indeed", but am willing to meet you halfway with a "Mayhap". Confused



I've only just begun reading The Last Dark (6 chapters thus far), but I thought I'd chime in with my 2 cents worth. Pun intended ... 2 scents!

Quote:
Linden Avery raised her head to scent the air ... : an evanescent breath of wrongness.


Quote:
The almost imperceptable frisson of wrongness rose from some other source.


Quote:
As though he caught the scent of her thoughts, Jeremiah asked ...


So how can I make some point on those three sentences?
Well I suppose there is hints and implications to what the wrongness is and what that source may be. Obviously this is Kevin's Dirt, and the source is Mt.Thunder.
But there may be a deeper source emanating from a far subtler place.

Linden Avery is very concerned that Jeremiah has been profoundly damaged by the long term cruelty of Lord Foul and the croyel.
This may be expressed by the state of Jeremiah's pajamas.
Linden can see that the pattern of horses is almost completely hidden by dirt. There is also very little left of the sky-blue color. Kevin's Dirt?

Then there is the title of the chapter, Betimes Some Wonder.
But for a letter 'd' we could have Be'd'times - Jeremiah's pajamas.

Some Wonder - made me think of Stevie Wonder.
So I looked up Stevie's discography and was pleasantly surprised to find a song called, Bedtime For Toys.

Could this be a quiet hint that we haven't heard the last of Jeremiah's race car?

Merry Christmas

Bedtime For Toys

Quote:
Close your eyes, beddy bye tin soldier,
Mommy says that it's time for sleep,
If my folks were wiser and older,
They'd know kids and toys don't need sleep.

Don't be bad little cotton dolly,
See how nice Mickey Mouse sleeps now?
Even my brass drummer boy has stopped all his noise,
Cause he knows it's past bedtime for toys.

(Spoken)
Ya know, every Christmas Santa Claus goes all over the
World with his reindeer, sled, and a big bag of toys and
He'll come to your house this year too.
But sometimes, just sometimes, he doesn't have enough time
To see every little boy and girl because the world is so big.
So maybe we should sing a song for all the children
That Santa didn't visit.

Bless the child who has no tin soldier,
No brass drummer boy to put to bed.
He will still grow wiser and older,
Loving one small rag doll instead.

He won't have a cotton dolly,
Mickey Mouse won't come to his house.
Hold that rag doll to your heart, nothing can destroy
The beauty one child find's in one small toy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 3904

Thanks: 889
Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts

Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
2426 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vizidor wrote:
I've only just begun reading The Last Dark (6 chapters thus far), but I thought I'd chime in with my 2 cents worth. Pun intended ... 2 scents!


Pleas feel free to chime in on any chapter dissection that catches your interest, Vizidor, no matter how long ago the last post was made! Your comments will further enrich the threads with added insight.

Vizidor wrote:
Well I suppose there is hints and implications to what the wrongness is and what that source may be. Obviously this is Kevin's Dirt, and the source is Mt.Thunder.
But there may be a deeper source emanating from a far subtler place.


Could be. But I should say no more, lest I venture into spoiler territory. Wink

Vizidor wrote:
Then there is the title of the chapter, Betimes Some Wonder.
But for a letter 'd' we could have Be'd'times - Jeremiah's pajamas.


Clever, Vizidor; I didn't see that! Smile
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Group Readings -> Last Chronicles All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch