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Bundy Versus Bureau of Land Management
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Bundy Versus Bureau of Land Management Reply with quote

This story is starting to get out of hand. If you haven't heard of it, a rancher in Nevada, Clive Bundy, is having his cattle rounded up by the BLM because he hasn't been paying grazing fees for the past 20 years. The reason he had to pay the grazing fees in the first place is because some of the land, which Bundy claims has been in his family for more than 100 years, was placed under Federal control back in 1993--or was already under Federal control but the story doesn't make this clear--and had its grazing rules changed. The grazing rules, it appears, were changed in order to try and protect a species of endangered desert tortoise (but the story doesn't say which one or list is classification nomenclature); this change caused Mr. Bundy to owe grazing fees, according to the letter of the law, but he has refused to pay the fees for the past 20 years.
Anyway, now it is a circus--there are protesters there from Nevada, as well other places, with picket signs decrying the BLM as violating our freedoms, there are apparently Federal marshals and game rangers with guns rounding up the cattle, some of the Federal officials have brought dogs--really? they need trained dogs?--and, apparently, some protesters being tasered. One out-of-state group Utah calls itself "the Peoples United Mobile Armed Services". No, that isn't going to heighten any tensions at all. Rolling Eyes

On the one hand, the protesters are getting a little out of hand--the Federal officials are rounding up cows, not people, and aren't putting identification microchips into our arms or confiscating all money or suspending the Constitution or whatever other wild claim they are making today.
On the other hand, this sort of over-the-top response by the BLM reminds me of the over-the-top response from the ATF when they surrounded Mt. Carmel outside Waco (which, incidentally, was also back in 1993) or when they shot Ms. Weaver on her front porch through the child in her arms. Why did it take them 20 years to get to this point? Why didn't they come for the cows sooner? Why didn't they simply levy fines via a court against Mr. Bundy's assets for the cost of the fees?

Of course, since I asking questions, why is the unnamed desert tortoise more important than people? Why did the BLM take parts of Mr. Bundy's land for this tortoise? Why are "First Amendment zones" legal? The First Amendment applies everywhere, not just where the Feds say it does.

The potential for disaster is here. All it is going to take is one person doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and the bullets are going to start flying.

I have a ready compromise already in mind. Feds: return the cows and withdraw your well-armed presence from near Mr. Bundy's home. Feds: waive the past due fees. Mr. Bundy: start paying the grazing fees as of today. Mr. Bundy: advise the protesters to go back home. These things would diffuse the situation completely and turn it back into the minor problem it originally was.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every single person who ever broke a law can claim the law "violates their freedom". Saying this means nothing - that's what laws and regulations do.

And you should add that using federal land for grazing has been a form of government welfare for a long time, welfare only wealthy, influential, lobbyist-paying ranchers can get. It subsidizes their business. If it was a poor black person demanding grazing land, the word "entitlement" would come up in about six seconds.

However, I am sure that since turtles are involved, then this argument will be about whether it's a real law or a stupid law.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not in a position to research the history of the land so I cannot verify Mr. Bundy's claim that the land has belonged to his family for more than a century. If it did, then when and why did the BLM take it from them? If they did it to protect the unnamed tortoise, then that takes me back to asking why tortoises mean more than people? If they did, then wouldn't that be another misuse of eminent domain? "Here--we are paying you fair market value for your family's land then we are going to turn around and charge you a fee for using what used to belong to you."

Agreed--the modest fee for grazing on Federal land is as much a gimme to Big Ranchers as farm subsidies are to Big Agriculture. Joe Average cannot compete against that.

On the one hand it is not, nor has it ever been, the role of government to take over land and call it "off limits" to protect a species from extinction; that has nothing to do with protecting the nation the government has been elected to represent and govern. Any such law is a stupid law.
On the other hand, without such protection corporations would go back to the bad old days of Robber Barons, when sufficient money allowed them to do whatever they wanted and if someone else tried to stop them they would just hire some more mercenaries to remove the opposition. These days, though, corporations hire politicians rather than mercenaries to keep up the appearance of legality....

It won't take long for this story to start cropping up in national election campaigns.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things that are apparently facts:
It is NOT his land [or his families].
It was NEVER his land [or his families]
He has had his day in court numerous times, has always lost and always ignored it.
He has NOT been surrounded by snipers or harassed by attack helicopters AFAICT, despite the net-truthspiracy.

[[And, just for fun, AFAICT the Bureau charges a grazing fee of about a buck and a half per month per head. If Bundy had to graze them anywhere else he'd have to pay, depending on location, between 20 and 100 TIMES that much. God knows what it would cost him if he owned and therefore had to pay taxes on the land.]]

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:

It is NOT his land [or his families].
It was NEVER his land [or his families]


Can you prove these things or can you link us to the proof thereof?

Vraith wrote:

He has had his day in court numerous times, has always lost and always ignored it.
He has NOT been surrounded by snipers or harassed by attack helicopters AFAICT, despite the net-truthspiracy.


These are for certain. I am surprised that it managed to drag on for 20 years, though--I bet that if I got into some sort of quasi-legal trouble with some government agency I couldn't drag it on for 6 months.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Bundy Versus Bureau of Land Management Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
This story is starting to get out of hand. If you haven't heard of it, a rancher in Nevada, Clive Bundy, is having his cattle rounded up by the BLM because he hasn't been paying grazing fees for the past 20 years. The reason he had to pay the grazing fees in the first place is because some of the land, which Bundy claims has been in his family for more than 100 years, was placed under Federal control back in 1993--or was already under Federal control but the story doesn't make this clear--and had its grazing rules changed. The grazing rules, it appears, were changed in order to try and protect a species of endangered desert tortoise (but the story doesn't say which one or list is classification nomenclature); this change caused Mr. Bundy to owe grazing fees, according to the letter of the law, but he has refused to pay the fees for the past 20 years.
Anyway, now it is a circus--there are protesters there from Nevada, as well other places, with picket signs decrying the BLM as violating our freedoms, there are apparently Federal marshals and game rangers with guns rounding up the cattle, some of the Federal officials have brought dogs--really? they need trained dogs?--and, apparently, some protesters being tasered. One out-of-state group Utah calls itself "the Peoples United Mobile Armed Services". No, that isn't going to heighten any tensions at all. Rolling Eyes

On the one hand, the protesters are getting a little out of hand--the Federal officials are rounding up cows, not people, and aren't putting identification microchips into our arms or confiscating all money or suspending the Constitution or whatever other wild claim they are making today.
On the other hand, this sort of over-the-top response by the BLM reminds me of the over-the-top response from the ATF when they surrounded Mt. Carmel outside Waco (which, incidentally, was also back in 1993) or when they shot Ms. Weaver on her front porch through the child in her arms. Why did it take them 20 years to get to this point? Why didn't they come for the cows sooner? Why didn't they simply levy fines via a court against Mr. Bundy's assets for the cost of the fees?

Of course, since I asking questions, why is the unnamed desert tortoise more important than people? Why did the BLM take parts of Mr. Bundy's land for this tortoise? Why are "First Amendment zones" legal? The First Amendment applies everywhere, not just where the Feds say it does.

The potential for disaster is here. All it is going to take is one person doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and the bullets are going to start flying.

I have a ready compromise already in mind. Feds: return the cows and withdraw your well-armed presence from near Mr. Bundy's home. Feds: waive the past due fees. Mr. Bundy: start paying the grazing fees as of today. Mr. Bundy: advise the protesters to go back home. These things would diffuse the situation completely and turn it back into the minor problem it originally was.



http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/


Quote:
In removing Bundy's livestock from public lands, the park service and land bureau are carrying out two U.S. District Court orders from two different judges.

"Cattle have been grazing in trespass on public lands in Southern Nevada for more than two decades," the National Park Service said. "The BLM and NPS have made repeated attempts to resolve this matter administratively and judicially. Impoundment of cattle illegally grazing on public lands is an option of last resort."

Added the BLM: "Mr. Bundy has also failed to comply with multiple court orders to remove his cattle from the federal lands and to end the illegal trespass."

The bureau does allow grazing on federal lands -- it administers 18,000 grazing permits and leases on 157 million acres across the country, the agency said.

Bundy's dispute with the government began about 1993 when the bureau changed grazing rules for the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area to protect an endangered desert tortoise, KLAS reported.

Bundy refused to abide by the changes and stopped paying his grazing fees to the federal bureau, which he contends is infringing on state rights. His family has been ranching since the 1800s, before the U.S. Department of Interior was created and endangered species became a federal issue, he said in an interview with KLAS.

"My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed," Bundy told the station.

"With all these rangers and all this force that is out here, they are only after one man right now. They are after Cliven Bundy. Whether they want to incarcerate me or whether they want to shoot me in the back, they are after me. But that is not all that is at stake here. Your liberty and freedom is at stake," he continued.

And Bundy sees it as a state issue.

"The federal government has seized Nevada's sovereignty ... they have seized Nevada's laws and our public land. We have no access to our public land and that is only a little bit of it," he said


Read this one the other day. My opinion:

Mr. Bundy is uninterested in the governments position if it means he cannot graze his cattle on those lands. He specifically states that his family as been there since the 1800's and his use predates the Federal Governments aquiring of the land.

(sound familier, can we say "Native Americans". Knew you could Big Grin )

Sounds to me that the Feds have been trying for years to get this guy to comply with regulations and court orders, and he has refused. So finally they bring in the people to remove the cattle that are "trespassing".


This is one of the few times I'm siding with the Feds on a matter like this. Mr. Bundy is essentially saying that he is going to graze that land no matter what the law says.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Vraith wrote:

It is NOT his land [or his families].
It was NEVER his land [or his families]


Can you prove these things or can you link us to the proof thereof?


Heh...not in my history anymore, but I'm FAIRLY sure I first saw it at "The Daily Paul" which should tickle your Libertarian funny bone. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well here you go...

BLM fracking racket exposed! Armed siege and cattle theft from Bundy ranch really about fracking leases
Quote:
he Bureau of Land Management says its 200-man armed siege of the Cliven Bundy ranch in Nevada is all about protecting an "endangered tortoise." But a Natural News investigation has found that BLM is actually in the business of raking in millions of dollars by leasing Nevada lands to energy companies that engage in fracking operations.

This document from the Nevada Bureau of Mines and Geology(1) shows significant exploratory drilling being conducted in precisely the same area where the Bundy family has been running cattle since the 1870's. The "Gold Butte" area is indicated on the lower right corner of the document (see below), and it clearly shows numerous exploratory drilling operations have been conducted there.

What's also clear is that oil has been found in nearby areas and possibly even within the Gold Butte area itself.

It is, of course, customary for the U.S. government to bring armed soldiers to an oil dispute. (Operation "Iraqi Freedom" for starters...) Heavily armed snipers, helicopters and militarized soldiers have never been invoked over tortoises. (Anyone who thinks this siege is about reptiles is kidding themselves.)

The Bureau of Land Management has just cashed in with $1.27 million in oil and gas leases in Nevada. This was just reported two weeks ago in ShaleReporter.com, which states:

U.S. Bureau of Land Management geologist Lorenzo Trimble tells the Las Vegas Review-Journal the Elko County oil and gas leases sold Tuesday for $1.27 million to six different companies. The auction took place in Reno. The leases are near where Houston-based Noble Energy Inc. wants to drill for oil and natural gas on 40,000 acres of public and private land near the town of Wells. The Review-Journal reports the project would be the first in Nevada to use hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, to extract oil and gas from shale deposits.

The way this works, of course, is that BLM runs land theft operations by claiming they are "managing" the land and thereby kicking everyone else off it. They then invoke a reptile, an owl, a bird, a snake or some other animal which they claim to be "saving," even while they are stealing and destroying hundreds of cattle belonging to a private rancher trying to make an honest living in a nation where productive Americans are increasingly branded "enemies of the state."

Once control of the land is established via court order or by bringing armed men with automatic weapons, BLM then turns around and leases the land to fracking companies who proceed to exploit the land using hydraulic fracturing techniques that inject toxic chemicals into groundwater supplies (and have been linked to earthquakes). The money collected by the BLM is then used to increase BLM salaries and bonuses.

In essence, the BLM is a criminal mafia racket, and Cliven Bundy just happened to be in the way of their next target, the Gold Butte area of Nevada. That is why they brought hundreds of heavily armed men to a "save the tortoise" operation.

"Endangered tortoises" is merely the government cover story for confiscating land to turn it over to fracking companies for millions of dollars in energy leases. In truth, the BLM was rapidly euthanizing these very same reptiles en masse last year.(2)

As part of its police state intimidation to control the land, BLM unleashed attack dogs on a pregnant woman.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Well here you go...

BLM fracking racket exposed! Armed siege and cattle theft from Bundy ranch really about fracking leases
Quote:
he Bureau of Land Management says its 200-man armed siege of the Cliven Bundy ranch in Nevada is all about protecting an "endangered tortoise." But a Natural News investigation has found that BLM is actually in the business of raking in millions of dollars by leasing Nevada lands to energy companies that engage in fracking operations.

This document from the Nevada Bureau of Mines and Geology(1) shows significant exploratory drilling being conducted in precisely the same area where the Bundy family has been running cattle since the 1870's. The "Gold Butte" area is indicated on the lower right corner of the document (see below), and it clearly shows numerous exploratory drilling operations have been conducted there.

What's also clear is that oil has been found in nearby areas and possibly even within the Gold Butte area itself.

It is, of course, customary for the U.S. government to bring armed soldiers to an oil dispute. (Operation "Iraqi Freedom" for starters...) Heavily armed snipers, helicopters and militarized soldiers have never been invoked over tortoises. (Anyone who thinks this siege is about reptiles is kidding themselves.)

The Bureau of Land Management has just cashed in with $1.27 million in oil and gas leases in Nevada. This was just reported two weeks ago in ShaleReporter.com, which states:

U.S. Bureau of Land Management geologist Lorenzo Trimble tells the Las Vegas Review-Journal the Elko County oil and gas leases sold Tuesday for $1.27 million to six different companies. The auction took place in Reno. The leases are near where Houston-based Noble Energy Inc. wants to drill for oil and natural gas on 40,000 acres of public and private land near the town of Wells. The Review-Journal reports the project would be the first in Nevada to use hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, to extract oil and gas from shale deposits.

The way this works, of course, is that BLM runs land theft operations by claiming they are "managing" the land and thereby kicking everyone else off it. They then invoke a reptile, an owl, a bird, a snake or some other animal which they claim to be "saving," even while they are stealing and destroying hundreds of cattle belonging to a private rancher trying to make an honest living in a nation where productive Americans are increasingly branded "enemies of the state."

Once control of the land is established via court order or by bringing armed men with automatic weapons, BLM then turns around and leases the land to fracking companies who proceed to exploit the land using hydraulic fracturing techniques that inject toxic chemicals into groundwater supplies (and have been linked to earthquakes). The money collected by the BLM is then used to increase BLM salaries and bonuses.

In essence, the BLM is a criminal mafia racket, and Cliven Bundy just happened to be in the way of their next target, the Gold Butte area of Nevada. That is why they brought hundreds of heavily armed men to a "save the tortoise" operation.

"Endangered tortoises" is merely the government cover story for confiscating land to turn it over to fracking companies for millions of dollars in energy leases. In truth, the BLM was rapidly euthanizing these very same reptiles en masse last year.(2)

As part of its police state intimidation to control the land, BLM unleashed attack dogs on a pregnant woman.


so all the way back to 1993, when Mr. Bundy refused to pay the leases on the land, Big Oil was already planning to Frack?

And you are taking this on face value?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
...why tortoises mean more than people?


No shortage of people. Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Those who say Bundy is a “deadbeat” are making inaccurate claims. Bundy has in fact paid fees to Clark County, Nevada in an arrangement pre-dating the BLM. The BLM arrived much later, changed the details of the setup without consulting with Bundy — or any other rancher — and then began systematically driving out cattle and ranchers. Bundy refused to pay BLM, especially after they demanded he reduce his heard’s head count down to a level that would not sustain his ranch. Bundy OWNS the water and forage rights to this land. He paid for these rights. He built fences, established water ways, and constructed roads with his own money, with the approval of Nevada and BLM. When BLM started using his fees to run him off the land and harassing him, he ceased paying.


Sounds like his biggest 'beef' is that his family has had an agreement with the State of Nevada that predates BLM but the Federal Govt is saying that Federal powers over-ride any previous agreement that he had. Its not like the Federal Govt doesn't have enough land in Nevada. 84% of Nevada is protected 'govt' land.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAICT: the reduction in number of cattle allowed was RELATED to, but not SOLELY because of the tortoise.
It is because the land was ALREADY being overgrazed...meaning sure, the critter might die out...but ALSO that the land itself would be ruined so NOTHING could graze there.

The fracking thing is a fantasy. For fuck's sake, in my part of NY Dairy cows graze practically standing on TOP of the machinery for oil, gas, and fracking operations. [there's actually a locally kind of popular risque postcard...and it's real, not photo-shopped...of a cow "mooing" in ecstasy while a rig "pumps" it.] In this case it's even more fantasy since, AFAICT, the "leases" they're wailing about are hundreds of miles away...oh, and the BLM doesn't get that money even if it WAS true.

The only thing that really matters, I think, is it is not his land, it never was his land, he has no "right" to it.
If that kind of "claim" is true, then I personally, have the "rights" to a significantly large portion of Maryland to be very rich, and my extended family has rights to use many of the wealthiest parts of it...and various gov'ts "owe" me and my extended family many many billions. But that isn't how things ACTUALLY work, you can only get there by...

The other thing that matters...

He and his supporters are just making shit up.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Originally the rights to work the Bunkerville allotment were purchased by Cliven Bundy's granddad back in 1887. Cliven's granddad sold the rights to Cliven's dad, and in 1972 the rights were passed onto Cliven Bundy himself. The agreement in place also included the rights to built in water systems, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars.



Quote:
The US Bureau of Land Management did approach Cliven Bundy to try and buy the land usage rights, the original rights that were purchased back in 1887 by the Bundy family to use the land to graze their cattle upon and to also improve the land. Cliven Bundy refused to sell his rights to the BLM.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Quote:
Originally the rights to work the Bunkerville allotment were purchased by Cliven Bundy's granddad back in 1887. Cliven's granddad sold the rights to Cliven's dad, and in 1972 the rights were passed onto Cliven Bundy himself. The agreement in place also included the rights to built in water systems, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars.



Quote:
The US Bureau of Land Management did approach Cliven Bundy to try and buy the land usage rights, the original rights that were purchased back in 1887 by the Bundy family to use the land to graze their cattle upon and to also improve the land. Cliven Bundy refused to sell his rights to the BLM.


I'd like to see the paperwork on that.
But NORMALLY such "rights" aren't rights like constitutional rights...they are RENT. They don't ordinarily last forever, and if you don't follow the rules, and if you don't keep paying the rent, then you gotta go. He does not, his family does not, and never did, own the property.

On the second one...I've not seen anyone show any evidence of that [not that it's necessarily untrue] only him or his daughter SAYING it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone explain why the US government owns any land?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Can someone explain why the US government owns any land?
uh, because they bought it
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I believe the land in question is NOT owned by the Federal Govt and is instead held in trust by the Federal Govt for the people of the State of Nevada.
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"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will have to find the passage from the Illuminati Trilogy where a Native American elder talks about how "magic" is a piece of paper which says that you "own" a piece of land; in reality, the final right of ownership over anything is whether or not you can muster the force to stop someone else who wants it from taking it from you.

I will have to look through The Daily Paul about the ownership issue.

In the meantime, the BLM has relented and has released the cattle after a showdown with supporters on horseback who kept slowly advancing on Federal agents despite warnings to back down. Right now, the only article about this I see is coming from Infowars and I absolutely refuse to link to Alex Jones or any of his sites--that man is a crackpot and a loon.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
...in reality, the final right of ownership over anything is whether or not you can muster the force to stop someone else who wants it from taking it from you.


Yeah but that's not how your democracy is supposed to work. Very Happy

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