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TLD Part 1 Chapter 5..Coming

 
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 4:18 am    Post subject: TLD Part 1 Chapter 5..Coming Reply with quote

I thought I had this chapter, I had it sussed. Then ..just yesterday ,,something bothered me about it ,,and there it was. Just about every sentence in this chapter has the letter " o" in it. You can go pages,,many pages,,between the rare sentences containing no " o's". Dimensions of awe open like curtains on a stage , yet i have no lines to mutter in the jaw dropping play.


So..here is my dissect as it was. I stand by it.
There is Hope in contradiction.Previous chapters are the contradictions, the opposing,the black and white.Raver and Haruchai, TC's heart's desire and The Land's needs. Mix the opposites together for a third reality, a third choice, a surreal chapter 5. The chapter points in the surreal direction as it starts,,"Fury and thrashing were gone from the Sarangrave ( check out what the author is doing with the vowels and the consonant " R" in that open in line)..then, …With elaborate care, the lurker lifted Thomas Covenant high into the air. Another tentacle arose to bear Branl of the Humbled and High Lord Loric's krill"…sure a lot rising above going on as in the surreal. By end of chapter we meet the extra reality, the most surreal,,we meet The Worm…And there is something else about this chapter ,,a third reality that I just realized. And here and there , the author rubs it in our face for being sO ObviOus…Every sentence has a word with an " O " in it..except one or two that have to do with…healing and wholeness, ..weird..

This chapter the author creates new , weird, strange realities with just a couple or few words and with " sections" pages long or not ,. Even the Lurker gets in on the act surpassing TC's, Branl's and the readers expectations of halting the advance of the Worm..Out of nowhere, the spawn of the demondim join with the Lurker creating webs of magical warding, thwarting the Worms senses..Totally unexpected rise above the mundane..There is Hope in choices we haven't even conceived of. The Lurker went to others besides TC for help; you just might have to ask somebody else for input, for help, to discover those choices

The Lurker parading Covenant and Branl thru the Sarangrave with the Feroce thronging in homage..and then giving them a bath and then a dip in the hurt loam;talk about other reality,the Hope of contradiction. They earned it by the way of Trust.
"Limbs and reeds as ghostly as spirits bobbed as if they ware bowing..grasses swayed in consternation or awe,.anything that was not gall and bitter lamentation" ;Yea, thats the idea. Gall and bitter lamentation tend to be anchors…encumbrances to all the lifting higher and elevated reality.

Branl's explanation to TC on why they , the Feroce,contradicted his orders to not follow him, ends including, " we could descry no other means by which we might correct our fault..How sad..the Haruchai still doesn't get that ..the way of their oath, leaves them Choice Challenged. TC put it.."And now you are alone. This far from any of your people, you're cut off from everything that makes you who you are. As isolated as a leper." ..no freedom of choices,no asking for help, no Hope.

more other realities:
Horram Carabal bore Covenant so lightly that he had no sense of duration or distance..OOooh, time and space warpage involved in " other realities"

Hundreds of the creatures waved their small fires, making the wetlands garish, and chanted like worshippers in the presence of divinity….The story teller leaves out what they chanted.It can be only one thing.Are you there yet..?It just had to be .." Play FreeBird!!.... I mean..c'mon,,the author can be having some fun in the middle of all this ..I think so anyway. Its all about choices..perspectives.

Then the whole search for a way to accept the hurt loam plunge..kinda funny with TC remembering all his demands and promises about how he was defined but having to be reminded by the Feroce about Forbidding. ..The whole realization of the missed opportunity, the missed other reality that may have kept turiya out of lurkers soul…ouch, but.. Then the simple and obvious,the wholeness of an " O",I choose Life..Yea,, He always needed Help..There is nothing wrong in that..Trust it,,And once again the familiar Donaldson refrain..: Under the right circumstances, weakness was a form of strength.."Only if you join me"..a new reality ,,a 3rd choice, for both of them,",a whole world became spangles of gold like the rising of little suns.."

"he came from the depths of dreams which he did not know how to interpret..OOoohh one of those wacko dreams so strange they defy interpretation ,, with maybe a sound track by Krysztof Penderecki.( think Psycho shower scene) while TC dreams of the gobbeting of Clyme..where maybe its all about the feel rather than any interpretation

gems of Time..

he could feel his Toes!..great surreal metaphor.." He could feel his toes, actually feel his toes. They told him that his socks and boots were still sodden.."…HAA! hope in contradiction.

Something unexpected. Something he could not imagine.

Listen fast.

Our High God craves a boon..Can we stop on that one since it seems the rest of the chapter is like a parable centered on that game changer?..Like Linden and her shattering foundations,The ground on which he stood seem to cant…TC senses the Lurker might have it wrong about the Worm and also sees the possibility that if the Worm is headed for the elohim Kasternessen;then a run in with SHE is inevitable with ensuing end of Time just as inevitable,( another variation of the self referential, " and we wouldn't be here to fight for the Land") but in any case all of the head scratching will be replaced with real knowledge. Also in this " discussion" comes the inexplicable… The Feroce are ashamed that they failed to get TC to remember about Forbidding. It cost their God much pain.And with that bit of connectivity, TC quickly connects the dots and has the Feroce off and running to tell Linden what she might try. Nice unseen turning fail into success,,hope from leprosy thing there. Ya never kno if you are not looking for it…kinda like the " O's" of this chapter. Lady Macbeth's chamber maid.." Out! Out! damn tomato stain!"

While Branl searches for an appropriate shelter to view the anticipated arrival of the Worm, TC takes a moment to reflect..from , the Land showing him who he was,,to the world being a impersonal mechanism inhabited by self referential beings therefore no fault could be held against him. Yet he knows over Time , he has changed very little, and that he did not believe the Land was simply parts of a mechanism. The Land, the world formed a Living Creation,,that yearned for continuance. " If he failed them, the world's woe would be vast as the heavens. While it lasted" The world or the woe?..I mean, a thought occurred to me in the middle of that reverie; was TC or the Story Teller, or the author, talking about Us? The web based fandom? Are We the Living Creations getting our validation, our continuance thru TCoTC? In any case, his notion of reassurance that Time endured , unbroken , one thing led to another, the Law that constrained and enabled life,,held true,,in just minutes would be blown away literally and figuratively...did the author just hint that the Worm...is Us?

With much Sturm and Drang the reality of the Worm approaches. There are self contained storms within the heaving mountain of a beast, but very much of the chaos enveloping Lifeswallower is a consequence of the Worm,,rather than the Worm itself. The Worm is organic. It is here that i get the first inklings, that the Worm might need to be reconsidered. Some how, the author gets me to sympathize for the beast. Its not savage in its appetite. It ignores all that is not related directly to Earth Blood, Earth Power. Perhaps I remember too well the caterpillars heaving them selves up a stem to have lunch. I recall a fascinating observation of a tomato worm. Strange creatures, but still of nature…Like Shakespeare's Tempest, all the storming denotes new reality coming,,and sure enough, the Lurker out does himself by being all that he can be with a little help from his friends. TC, the Leper, becomes the Boon of Hope. Nice change from the depths of Joan Slayer.

Fascinating that the account of the Worm is thru Branl's eyes rather than thru TC's eyes. Only a Haruchai could handle the storming scene..?? Only for a moment does TC see the heaving mountain of the beast and with that ..inspiration is his...seeing things differently, even backwards..brings TC to the conception of what the lurker can do against the Worm. Branl keeps his stoic calm and relays the fantastic..evil makes a good thing happen..hope in contradiction.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
While Branl searches for an appropriate shelter to view the anticipated arrival of the Worm, TC takes a moment to reflect..from , the Land showing him who he was,,to the world being a impersonal mechanism inhabited by self referential beings therefore no fault could be held against him.


Yes, lurch, this moment of reflection really surprised me, coming from Mr. I'm-So-Filled-With-Guilt, TC. "Now he found himself arguing that the world was really nothing more than an impersonal mechanism inhabited vy self-referential beings. Therefore no failure, here or anywhere, could be held against him." Yet he rejects this "mechanism" view because it's all a moving living creation to him. He rejects this view just as he has long ago rejected that this is a dream.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord..yea, like..TC sits down and starts reviewing his life...huh? ..where does that come from? I can suppose that TC is feeling the Change..there is much game changer in this chapter. ...figuratively..change from the " mechanism" of Time,..linear, one thing leading to another, the Law that CONSTRAINED and enabled Life, ( Time Warden much?) to the spherical , rounded, more than the logic of Black/ White,,True/ False Being. So my read of that passage , while initially, was whats up with this?,,i found an answer in the parable of the chapter..developing a new reality, new idea, new concept,,creating anew, from the diametrically opposed of the old.

Yes initially TC rejects the notion that the Land is a Dream, after the consequences of raping Lena,,are " felt". Interesting it is,,imho anyway,,how the " dream factor" has entered back into the story. The change is ...not that dreams are " real ",,but they are valid,,,valid as other reality,,that we as Humans experience and are effected by. So, the author in this reverie passage suggests that TC ,,has re-connected with his self, his Humanity,,and prepares for the Surreal,,readies himself for The Worm..game changer indeed.
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Cord..yea, like..TC sits down and starts reviewing his life...huh? ..where does that come from

I suppose this happens because this is about the only time since his resurrection that he has a moments for reflection, while waiting for the approach of the Worm. Any other time, he has had to think of actions to take, take those actions, or was trapped in experiences of the past.

lurch wrote:
Interesting it is,,imho anyway,,how the "dream factor" has entered back into the story.


Sorry, but I can't quite get on board with this, for TC continues to see that the Land is more than just an extension of his personality. The dream factor doesn't really seem to come back into play, because it's that he and others still feel concerned about it that counts. I'm going to post the passage in question, adding my own italic emphasis at one point.

Quote:
There was a kind of comfort in the notion that the Earth neither understood nor feared its own peril. Its life was not a reflection of himself. But such consolation was too abstract to touch him--or his dying nerves did not feel it. Ultimately nothing ever mattered, except to the people who cared about it. To them, however, the import of the stakes was absolute.

Covenant grimaced ruefully at his thoughts. Long ago, he had insisted that the Land did not exist, except as a from of self-contained delirium. in that sense, it was a reflection of himself. And he was powerless in it because he could not change his own image in the mirror: it only showed him who he was. Therefore he could not be blamed for his action; or for the Land's fate. Now he found himself arguing that the world was really nothing more than an impersonal mechanism inhabited by self-referential beings. Therefore no failure, here or anywhere, could be held against him.

After so many years, he had changed very little. He was still looking for a way to forgive himself for being human and afraid.

But in in fact he did not believe that the Land and its world were simply parts of a mechanism. They formed a living creation. And like all living things, they yearned for continuance. If he failed them, the world's woe would be as vast as the heavens.

While it lasted.


lurch wrote:
Fascinating that the account of the Worm is thru Branl's eyes rather than thru TC's eyes. Only a Haruchai could handle the storming scene..??


Yup, this may be the only moment in the entire Last Chron. where we get the POV of one born of the Land's world.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..ahh, I need to clarify my observation. By dream factor,,I am referring to ,,that Linden has had a dream already in this book and in this chapter, TC has a dream which is so" other reality" TC can't even interpret it. So two dreams mentioned already. What i'm going after is the " other reality"..not that they are " real" but that they have influence,,Dreams are valid. We have them. But do they make us who we are? Probably not, unless as Scientist have discovered,,deprived of dreams , a human soon becomes irritable and short tempered. Something I try not to be.

I take the " caring" part of that statement as the important point to consider. Every body has their own " other realities.."..Reality is subjective..What makes any " other reality" , Real..is the care given to it. An example; A homeless person feels " invisible" because of the many many people going by ,seeing his slumped body under the newspaper,,no one stops to give care..He feels like hes invisible, not real to other people because they don't extend a care. This validation by care,,is played very much in the Virtual...the Like, Friend,, heck, unFriend, of facebook..the comments section of any blog..even here with just a back and forth exchange of observations and ideas..there has to be enough " care" to post on a subject and enough " care" to return the volley , so to speak. I care ,,probably to an extreme , about the author's work. I post here and my invested care is validated...or not.

With that in mind, perhaps you can see how it is that I start raising the questions, the observations,,about what is the Worm metaphorically,,the Earthblood metaphorically. These " other realities" are distantly hinted at when the narrator slips in that the White Gold Magic is the expenditure of TC's spirit. That little sly comment in the previous chapter is Huge as an opening to the metaphors of other realities." With wild magic, he expended his own spirit."..His spirit, caring, gets him to the Swamp, Logic is shown not to " care" ..and " other realities, wild and crazy as they are, are realized ...and then in chapter 5,,the " care" is rewarded, Hope is found in the " care" of a leper...Its not a Dream World,,but it is about a State of Mind.

The Big Question then becomes..As " Other Reality" is not the whole TCoTC,,as fiction, as Fantasy Fiction,,become a Valid reality , made so by Our Caring? What any one of us conceives and visualizes, sees with our mind's eye so to speak, when we read the author's work, that reality , that extra reality is not a dream but it certainly is a state of mind that can be manipulated, stretched, tied in knots,,etc etc etc from the reality created by the author and our own State of Mind. I have seen the Earthblood as the flow of the author's talents and We are the consumers of mass quantities of,,We Are The Worm..devouring every page of Earthblood in a relentless drive to The End..what every character in the Tale fears most. ..and..every time We dissect, discuss, re-read, reference,,any of TCoTC..we, like a Mobius Strip, fold back on the tale and start again. Freekin Beauty...as long as some one,,some where, cares.

So, is not the fact of Branl's unique view of The Worm,,as the only occurrence of a Land Character's point of view..is that not a character Of The Tale,,looking at US, the Worm,, and saying..Yup, this chapter about Other Realities slowed down the inevitable march to the End. The Evil Lurker Did a Good Thing...You've mentioned the Sam Gamgee self referential soliloquie as a character in a tale..howabout Branl's unique view for breaking the 4th wall? Other Realities !! 'yeeOOOWW!!
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will refrain from off-color jokes about the puissant Worm’s “coming”...quite an other reality there. Twisted Evil One matter that amused me, though, was the krill’s novel and improved function. The reader was informed that it had become more potent with use, and now Branl flaunts his 1337 chef skills by sectioning pumpkins with the Vile-silencing weapon. I wonder in what other means this new “potency” might be taken advantage of? Can the dagger cut perfectly shaped logs for a campfire, or decorative salami slices for a delicious pizza? Ice cubes glowing with slight argence for a chic cocktail? Oh, oh, the endless possibilities!

Anyhow, this chapter contains strands of the same haunting beauty that captivated me in the end portion of AATE...the rugged, desolate cliffs and menhirs huddling beneath the dying light, the wind and the crash of waves the only, inhuman sound… A bit akin to re-living some of my wintertime solo-hikes in Føroyar and Scottish islands: the ghostly shapes of barren rocks peeking out of the gray fog, the wind usually so strong one requires a cane to maintain balance, the hiss of the sideways-flying rain rippling across the almost sepulchral landscapes…well, the feeling is impossible to reproduce as it often involves sodden clothing, wet shoes, fogged-over glasses, and the occasional crouching behind a cairn or a boulder in order to find some shelter from the gale just as Covenant did here. Still, one can approximate it in the armchair by switching off the lights, pouring a bucket of zero-temperature water over one’s head, and adding a piquant splash of Icelandic black metal in the background...
Which reminds me, Covenant ought to have been trembling with cold in his tattered outfit at which even a scarecrow would pout; did the mystical medi-mud just grant him new thermal abilities?


Quote:
I recall a fascinating observation of a tomato worm.


Aargh...this...this cries for the worst-ever Macbethy pun: to mato or not…
//shot


Cord Hurn wrote:

Yup, this may be the only moment in the entire Last Chron. where we get the POV of one born of the Land's world.


I had also hoped for a more versatile POV cast, even if Jeremiah does step into the picture... In the first chrons several Landish beings kicked the tale onwards; a chapter or two for instance from Rime's point of view would have injected more individuality to the underdeveloped Giantesses.


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seen your depictions;
The Giantesses were NOT
Underdeveloped!
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the bucket scene in AATE proved the lack or poor endowment in that department, but we could have used some back-story as well...
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

omg..every Ginsu knife sold on late nite TV..owes it heritage to Donaldson's Krill..

btw..how do the Finnish pronounce the English ..tomato?

is it pronounced ..tomato..or ..tomato..or both?...two tomato..or not two tomato?
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Äää...attempting to explain pronunciation without sound files isn't one of my bravuras. D: Apart from the R's rolling whichever way and clashing with the hard double consonants, this language is spoken in a different part of the mouth than English and it places the emphasis always on the first syllable. As for samples...I believe half of the board already cowers in horror underneath their beds after the avalanche of alliterative accordion metal, but that *was* Finnish. Regrettably they do not have a song devoted to worm-riddled gloomy tomatoes...
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Gloomy tomatoes..that reminds me of Lydia ,a young woman at work. Every day she comes to work with a little paper bag, a little brown paper bag with two slices of bread, a onion, a packet of Kraft Mayonnaise and a small , gloomy tomato, in the small brown paper bag.

At lunch, she brings her small paper bag to the break room, pulls out the contents and very methodically cuts open the packet and squeezes the mayo on to a slice of bread in nice equal and even rows from top to bottom. She slices the gloomy tomato in half then slices several thin layers of tomat from the half and carefully places them on the rows of mayo. The onion gets also cut in half and then a few rings are removed and then placed on the waiting red bed of tomatopedic. Now,,everyday she does this and everyday she gets to this point in the story and then,,looks around at the other tables in the lunch room. Everyday she spots the salt and pepper shakers on the other table, gets up all gloomy,,goes over and retrieves the S&P , slogs back to her sandwich,,shakes out a bit of both on her gloomy tomato and crying onion, slogs back to the other table returning the shakers..then back to her power sandwich,folds it up and takes small little gloomy bites out of it until its finished.

I'm sorry. I was told not to tell that story. I still think it is a better one than the story of Ted and His Ten Foot Boa Constrictor though.That story consumes its self as fast as its told. Its finished no sooner than its started. And gloomy! yeeoow.

Yes I really liked the descriptive of the " storming". Having been caught in a few micro-bursts and what not in the desert here, I can relate to the wind and all. But that little extra Donaldson touch, those blind tendrils of fog or mist or..searching for Earth Blood, curling around Branl and moving on..Gee, if I ever experienced such ,during a storm..I'd have some gloomy underpants.
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poor tomatoes of gloom and onions of doom. One might almost write a song about that sad little tale; it might even become a smash hit. Vaguely food-related, Amorphis has some lyrics about how the world was created from the egg of a cosmic duck, but that was a merrier omelet...

Anyway, mist and variations of thereof belong to everyday phenomena hereabouts, and I have experienced something quite close to Worm-fog both in a gale and still-standing air. In the mountains, you can often see the gray mass rolling down a hillside: moment #1 and moment #2; I doubt even a minute ticket past between those two shots. Sometimes when I'm waiting for the usual morning bus, a mist advances up the road from the lower watery areas, perhaps not with as dramatic tendrils as the Wormy gropes and fumbles about, but with curls and swirls one can nonetheless perceive by sight. Ragged mist-wraiths also hang upon snow in certain weather conditions.

Considering this and that the Worm's described as a bright creature akin to its cousin Jörmungandr in a different pocket of the multiverse, the Worm-spotting portion feels excessively Norse. No...wait, the serpent approaches the Land from the EAST? Just like the major foes of the Æsir in Ragnarökkr...gaa.
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice pictures there Frosty. Yes, fog is cloud, but at ground level, so all the things cloud do way above, could be done at ground level I suppose..just not to me on a dark corner at night , thank you. Hhhhhmm..the other reality of clouds, or the Imagination. The author took us there , to the Lost Deep where the Viles magical castle was created and Time is made to stand still...and the author returns us there before the Tale is finished. But the Krill strikes me as a Tool of the Imagination..as SRD has it..made stronger thru use..which is what he said about the Imagination..as a mental muscle that requires to be kept in shape. ..So..TC figures how to Time and Space travel with the Krill while Branl figures out how to cut up a melon...and oh..yea.. that gobbetting thang with Clyme..moksha be fortunate it hasn't possessed a side of beef. Anyway, perhaps SRD having a little joke on Branl there. ?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Late again. I cant seem to catch up.

Thanks for starting us off, lurch.

- - -

This stuck out for me, because of a connection to a common theme.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“Thereafter Clyme and I determined our course together. I chose the task of your life, deeming that purpose paramount. Freely Clyme assumed the burden of the Raver.

“The ak-Haru spoke of simony. We are” — his sudden pause had the force of a stab — “we were the Humbled. We could descry no other means by which we might correct our fault. How otherwise might we have become worthy of the Guardian, and of ourselves?”

In a voice thick with woe, he concluded, “I must believe that good may be gained by evil means.”

This reference to evil means bothered me at first, because I didn't understand it. I didn't get it. So it occurred to look at it by trying to understand what was the "good", and what was the "evil", Branl could be referring to.

The "good" could be the demise of the Raver. But what "evil" gave rise to it? Clyme's assassination? Perhaps, but it is clear that Branl believes that it this was mutually agreed upon. Freely assumed. So I don't think Branl would call that evil -- just sufficing.

The Humbled were adamant that helping the lurker, an evil being, was a colossal waste of time. Perhaps this was the "evil". Or maybe helping an evil lurker survive is itself evil.

[BTW had they not saved the lurker, the Worm would not have been turned, and the World would have Ended.]

But the reference to ak-Haru makes me wonder. That, and the feeling that Branl seems to be hoping good will result, not that good has resulted. I must believe.

He's hoping that they have become "worthy of the Guardian". That they have "corrected their fault". Simony. Ungenerosity. That's likely to be the "good" he is referring to here. Then, it would follow that helping the lurker, their act of generosity, was the "evil".

I think.

Also notice that "I must believe" is a sign of insecurity. He's afraid to consider the alternative -- that they did not achieve worthiness in this act. I have touched on that before.

- - -

This stuck out for me, because of a connection to an oft-repeated position.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
It was life and ruin. It would rescue and damn him —

— because his illness was essential to him. I don’t expect you to understand, he had told Linden’s company in Andelain. But I need this. I need to be numb. He had believed it then: he believed it now. It doesn't just make me who I am. It makes me who I can be.

Repetition is our clue that this is essential. But it doesn't tell us how? Why does Covenant need leprosy or numbness so badly?

We know about being anathema to Ravers. We know about holding the krill. But we are left with the feeling that there's more to it, that there's something even deeper. Because Raver-be-gone and a sharp knife won't resolve his deepest needs.

I don't understand.

But I think there's a clue in this chapter. Covenant goes into this idea a bit more deeply than he had before. And some bits emerge.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
Hurtloam. The word sent conflicted squalls through Covenant in spite of his near-prostration and his complex pains. Hurtloam would heal his wounds; but it might also cure his leprosy. It had done so before. It could restore his crippled health-sense. It could make him potent and capable in ways which were denied to lepers.

There it is. It could make him potent and capable in ways which were denied to lepers. This may be an inconsequential observation. Or it may be the central key.

Covenant is a leper -- the quintessential Ironic Mode hero. What if ... what if Covenant can't live any other way? That's what keeps lepers lepers ... the notion that there is no way to be effective, no hope of it. But Covenant found strength despite being a leper. He made his weakness strength. This is the bedrock of his identity. Thomas Covenant. Leper. Who saved the Land.

Perhaps Covenant needs this bedrock. Perhaps being a capable, potent, non-numb person puts him off his game, unbalances his psyche, sweeps him off his bedrock and casts him adrift. Perhaps leprosy is Covenant's comfort zone. The foundation upon which he builds his tenacity.

Could it be that simple? Covenant is a better man as a leper than as a healthy, capable person?

If so, this speaks volumes about the power of the Ironic Mode hero. The ineffective man derives power from acceptance of his ineffectuality.

- - -

I had commented in an earlier dissection about how each Chronicles includes an incident of Covenant being restored before the final confrontation.

This chapter seems to continue the trend.

- - -

I dreaded this chapter because it puts a krill into the heart of my theories on creation myths and TWOTWE.

Because we see it.

I cling to the lame notion that I was right as far as the Second Chronicles was concerned. Then Donaldson redesigned the Worm for the Last Cs. "I must believe" that. Smile

It is interesting that Donaldson refers to the Worm as "the World's End" a few times.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
... And the World’s End was definitely heading west. Toward Mount Thunder.

... Buy a little time. Until the World’s End found a different scent.

TWOTWE is still as much a metaphor as a thing. Such thin notions comfort my bruised and failure-crushed ego.

- - -

Frostheart wrote:
Anyhow, this chapter contains strands of the same haunting beauty that captivated me in the end portion of AATE...the rugged, desolate cliffs and menhirs huddling beneath the dying light, the wind and the crash of waves the only, inhuman sound… A bit akin to re-living some of my wintertime solo-hikes in Føroyar and Scottish islands: the ghostly shapes of barren rocks peeking out of the gray fog, the wind usually so strong one requires a cane to maintain balance, the hiss of the sideways-flying rain rippling across the almost sepulchral landscapes…well, the feeling is impossible to reproduce as it often involves sodden clothing, wet shoes, fogged-over glasses, and the occasional crouching behind a cairn or a boulder in order to find some shelter from the gale just as Covenant did here. Still, one can approximate it in the armchair by switching off the lights, pouring a bucket of zero-temperature water over one’s head, and adding a piquant splash of Icelandic black metal in the background...

Heh.

I found the description of the devastation of the Great Swamp poignant and well-depicted. You could so easily build that image in you mind from depictions of hurricanes on TV news - the verdancy being etched away, the cold, the wind, the battering seas, the greyness.

Realism, lurch. Realism. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaahh..way, is that the sound of one hand typing?

Yea,,what was going on in the shared mind of Clyme/Branl?..I see an analogy of the Pat Tillman story if not all " romantic warriors". A simple google of Pat Tillman will get you plenty of " Red White and Blue", Hero Worship, Rally Around The Flag,,etc etc etc,,but the simple truth is..Pat Tillman came up thru Arizona State Univ,,signed on to the Arizona Cardinals Professional NFL team and was a starting Linebacker.He had it made. He was local boy made good. 9/11 came along and with that he got the " romantic warrior" notion,,that as long as there were no goods allowed to fly planes into Americas center of money and power,,he could do better for himself and his country, by joining the Military and serving His Country. It is possible he had a political calling in his head and all this service he was to do,,would pay off big time, if he made it that far. But he became a Company commander and assigned to Afghanistan. His unit ,with him in charge, engaged the enemy one day, he took the leadership roll and turned himself into a John Wayne Hero Play Action figure. He got dead as a result. There is evidence that he was shot up by his own troops. .. The military doesn't like talking about that part of the story. During the Vietnam conflict, Hero wanna bes commanders were " fragged" by their own troops. " Frag" as in a grenade fragmenting into many pieces as it comes apart from explosion. In todays Afghanistan its called .".in the fog of war". To this day, Tillman is the Lombardi of the Cardinals. A fine propaganda machine doing their best there. I suppose there will always be the Haruchai worshippers here as well...

In their limited ability to " think", Clyme and Branl came to a plan limited by their own inability to see more choices. ..we could descry no other means....So their plan was parametered by the want to make the ak, Brinn,,respect them, but they could not go out side of their limitations to make Brinn respect them. They could have asked TC what he thought. But naught. Again,,its what Brinn thought of them..rather than ..what either thought about themselves..Sacrificing ones Life to get rid of a Evil...well there you are..Vietnam today wants to and is trading with USA. The lurker turns to TC for Hope in the next chapter. The subjectivity of what is " Evil",,for that matter, what is reality, seems to be the point.

What I always liked about TCOTC,,was the exaggerated reality of the Land,,taken back a few notches, reflected reality rather well. Such is the nature of metaphor, analogy, simile, etc etc. The idea of ..our weaknesses makes us stronger,,has been with us all along. It is Thomas Covenant, the happily married with son, successful author, living in the countryside, bucolic paradise and all..who gets leprosy. Who becomes " flawed'. We are ALL flawed. We ALL have leprosy. None of us is perfect..Dealing with our Despair over our " flaws" is part of the daily grind..if you let it be. Linden's repeated refrain to Jerry, " we are not our failures" is a variation of..our weaknesses make us stronger....In all, it seems to me the author is using different words to say the Surreal perspective...We are all poets. Each of us has A Talent..We are not all Mozarts, Shakespeares, Einstiens, etc etc etc, but we all have Individual Talent,,that defines Us as to Who We Are..our Identity. And we may have to try and try again to find that talent that waits inside of us to be found. We are not our failures..but our failures keep us searching for our successes..what we are good at. ( there in is the tragedy of Pat Tillman..He WAS a success..He had his Talent well secured..If he was seeking perfection, I'm sure the spin masters will have a halo around Tillman's head come the next iteration of the Pat Tillman story..oh wait..)..Anyway..we are not our failures, our flaws, but they do motivate us to find and master what we are good at.

Remember,,even as a successful author, upon contracting leprosy and what soon followed,,Thomas Covenant says of his writing before becoming a leper,,that what he wrote was ,,pulp,,confection, without any real sense of drama or tragedy..it was crap...The idea is there from the start..that the leprosy,,The Flaw,,would make him a better writer. This is The Notion of The Romantic Era...There is no " perfection" so don't pursue it..The trick is to be " In Tune " with your self and the World around you. The Surreal takes that notion to..creating a 3rd choice by getting your self and the exterior world around you, in tune with each other. The many " other realities" created in this chapter is the author demonstrating by example. And,,Branl gets to show he can cut up a melon. ouch!..But as Cord points out..Branl's account of the Worm Arrival is on purpose as well..Branl can Not ignore the "Other Reality" of the fully Fantastic WORM..The exaggeration Branl has to be taken to..for him to at least realize there are other reality, other choices seems to have sunk in. At end of the Tale,,Branl decides to seek , explore, terra incognito to redeem his chop suey of Clyme.

And as soon as The Weather Chanel reporter has a tendril of hurricane spew, go up one nostril and down an out the other nostril..while on the air..then I'll..oh wait..
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Aaahh..way, is that the sound of one hand typing?

Oh, well played, lurch.
Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
..ahh, I need to clarify my observation. By dream factor,,I am referring to ,,that Linden has had a dream already in this book and in this chapter, TC has a dream which is so" other reality" TC can't even interpret it. So two dreams mentioned already. What i'm going after is the " other reality"..not that they are " real" but that they have influence,,Dreams are valid. We have them. But do they make us who we are? Probably not, unless as Scientist have discovered,,deprived of dreams , a human soon becomes irritable and short tempered. Something I try not to be.


Thank you for clarifying, lurch. I can get "on board" with this, no problem at all. Thumbs Up

lurch wrote:
With that in mind, perhaps you can see how it is that I start raising the questions, the observations,,about what is the Worm metaphorically,,the Earthblood metaphorically. These " other realities" are distantly hinted at when the narrator slips in that the White Gold Magic is the expenditure of TC's spirit. That little sly comment in the previous chapter is Huge as an opening to the metaphors of other realities." With wild magic, he expended his own spirit."..His spirit, caring, gets him to the Swamp, Logic is shown not to " care" ..and " other realities, wild and crazy as they are, are realized ...and then in chapter 5,,the " care" is rewarded, Hope is found in the " care" of a leper...Its not a Dream World,,but it is about a State of Mind.


Sounds like a legit interpretation to me. And, as wayfriend astutely points out, no lurker redeemed from turiya due to Covenant's caring, no lurker to divert the Worm from Gravin Threndor and SWMNBN & Kastenessen, therefore world ends before Fangthane can be stopped from escaping.

Frostheart wrote:
well, the feeling is impossible to reproduce as it often involves sodden clothing, wet shoes, fogged-over glasses, and the occasional crouching behind a cairn or a boulder in order to find some shelter from the gale just as Covenant did here. Still, one can approximate it in the armchair by switching off the lights, pouring a bucket of zero-temperature water over one’s head, and adding a piquant splash of Icelandic black metal in the background...


I suppose I've never needed to try to empathize that much with the physical circumstances of the characters I'm reading about, but if I should need to do so, I just remember several of my camping trips that went lousy due to inclement weather (chilling rain arriving), coinciding with my discovery of a few previously-unnoticed leaks in the tent and tarps. Shocked

Frostheart wrote:
I had also hoped for a more versatile POV cast, even if Jeremiah does step into the picture... In the first chrons several Landish beings kicked the tale onwards; a chapter or two for instance from Rime's point of view would have injected more individuality to the underdeveloped Giantesses.


Yes, in TPTP we had the viewpoints of Mhoram in four chapters, of Triock in the "Message to Revelstone" chapter, and of Foamfollower in parts of the "Ridjeck Thome" and "The Unbeliever" chapters. With the issue of the Land's reality being put to rest as a critical plot point after TIW, would it have hurt us to have more POV from characters born of the Land's world? I think not, and sure would have liked to have seen it, particlularly from the Giantish perspective.

Frostheart wrote:
Anyway, mist and variations of thereof belong to everyday phenomena hereabouts, and I have experienced something quite close to Worm-fog both in a gale and still-standing air. In the mountains, you can often see the gray mass rolling down a hillside: moment #1 and moment #2; I doubt even a minute ticket past between those two shots. Sometimes when I'm waiting for the usual morning bus, a mist advances up the road from the lower watery areas, perhaps not with as dramatic tendrils as the Wormy gropes and fumbles about, but with curls and swirls one can nonetheless perceive by sight. Ragged mist-wraiths also hang upon snow in certain weather conditions.


Those are indeed great pictures, Frostheart, and the tendrils and curls and swirls of mist are quite a bit like how I envision Sarangrave Flat looking on a chilly morning.

lurch wrote:
..So..TC figures how to Time and Space travel with the Krill while Branl figures out how to cut up a melon...and oh..yea.. that gobbetting thang with Clyme..moksha be fortunate it hasn't possessed a side of beef. Anyway, perhaps SRD having a little joke on Branl there. ?


It's possible, lurch. Certainly he seemed to be having fun with TC being tossed about by tentacles.

wayfriend wrote:
He's hoping that they have become "worthy of the Guardian". That they have "corrected their fault". Simony. Ungenerosity. That's likely to be the "good" he is referring to here. Then, it would follow that helping the lurker, their act of generosity, was the "evil".


Initially, I would have thought choppig Clyme up to be the "evil" Branl refers to, I now think you must be right, wayfriend. Branl is struggling to accept that good can come from helping the lurker, from rescuing the being that Branl (with assistance from that incredible Haruchai racial memory) vividly remembers slew Cerrin and others of the Bloodguard.

wayfriend wrote:
TWOTWE is still as much a metaphor as a thing. Such thin notions comfort my bruised and failure-crushed ego.


Yeah, I don't know that I really understand its metaphoric use all that well (yet), but it's certainly a metaphor for something. That much I can sense.

Savor Dam wrote:
Oh, well played, lurch.
Laughing

Way, heal faster!


Agree on both counts, Savor Dam! This thread has been an enjoyable read, thanks to everybody involved. "The sounds of one hand typing" is much like the sound of two hands typing, except...slower, more thoughtful. I must aspire to this! Razz
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TWOTWE is still as much a metaphor as a thing. Such thin notions comfort my bruised and failure-crushed ego.

...well...we, the readers,,are all pretty much,,Book Worms..yes? so...how dimensional anew is it ..for the reader, as a metaphor, to be a character in the book..?..the next step being....
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Nice pictures there Frosty. Yes, fog is cloud, but at ground level, so all the things cloud do way above, could be done at ground level I suppose..just not to me on a dark corner at night , thank you.


Thanks (to Hurn also).
What about beholding puissant shapes looming out of the fog? Razz
It was less sniggerworthy when the fog dissolved, but still. I'll stop spamming vacation pics now.

Cord Hurn wrote:
Yes, in TPTP we had the viewpoints of Mhoram in four chapters, of Triock in the "Message to Revelstone" chapter, and of Foamfollower in parts of the "Ridjeck Thome" and "The Unbeliever" chapters. With the issue of the Land's reality being put to rest as a critical plot point after TIW, would it have hurt us to have more POV from characters born of the Land's world? I think not, and sure would have liked to have seen it, particlularly from the Giantish perspective.


Yeah, particularly as the comic relief dobbin Massima appears to enjoy more depiction from the author's behalf as the entire hird of warriors clumped together. The reader never even learns Grueburn's hair color, even though Linden spends minor eons clasped against her bucket-cataphract (I AM NOT BALD). Then, unexpectedly, the author springs out of the bushes to

Spoiler:
remind us in every second paragraph during the final chapters how much the anorectic flagpole Bluff Stoutgirth would need more than half a half-handful of square meals.


Lack of proper editing, methinks. Oh well.

Cord Hurn wrote:
I suppose I've never needed to try to empathize that much with the physical circumstances of the characters I'm reading about, but if I should need to do so, I just remember several of my camping trips that went lousy due to inclement weather (chilling rain arriving), coinciding with my discovery of a few previously-unnoticed leaks in the tent and tarps.


That analogy would work as well. Laughing I'm bound to experience more WOTWE-weather in the future due to my inane enthusiasm to visit windy North Sea islands during improper seasons.
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