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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
If human beings have mastered anything, it is the ability to dehumanize other human beings in pursuit of some social or political goal.
Indeed, and no good has ever come of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Of course, I also lean toward "this is your third abortion, you say? okay--mandatory tubal ligation for you", even though that does technically violate that person's rights. There is a limit to the amount of irresponsibility I am willing to tolerate.


Personally, I would consider the ideal to be mandatory reversible sterilisation at puberty, and then making people apply to have it reversed when they want kids, and have to prove that they are competent to do so.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Of course, I also lean toward "this is your third abortion, you say? okay--mandatory tubal ligation for you", even though that does technically violate that person's rights. There is a limit to the amount of irresponsibility I am willing to tolerate.


Personally, I would consider the ideal to be mandatory reversible sterilisation at puberty, and then making people apply to have it reversed when they want kids, and have to prove that they are competent to do so.

--A


I can certainly understand your rationale, especially with as insane as the world is these days, and the inhumanity we inflict on one another. But as I read this, I have to admit, nothing could scare me more.

In getting my doctorate at UT in 2001 (before they changed the rules), I had to submit my paper on cotton bond (25%) to a woman who was known as "the Ruler Nazi." She met with each graduate, and thumbed through the paper, ensuring that the margins on the paper were correct. If she didn't like the font, the setting, the spacing, you were sent back to redo the offending sections and had to resubmit it (providing you could get a meeting with her, she was booked in the later part of the semester and luckily, I was done by April 1st) or wait and pay another semester of tuition to graduate the following term.

Anticipating that everything had to be correct when I arrived (as I live 4 hours away), I emailed her a sample of a musical example I was discussing to make sure it would work, and she said it would. So
I printed my treatise, and drove 4 hours to Austin to meet with her. She was rather dour and without humor, but guessing she dealt with a lot of highly tense situations with stressed out doctoral students every day, that may have been her coping mechanism. She measures my margins, and starts flipping through the 100 page paper. She suddenly stops and without looking at me, informed me that "this margin is too wide on this example."

"Come again?" I replied.

"You'll have to go back and reprint the pages with musical examples, and reformat it." she explained. "If that doesn't alter the pagination and other items, then come back and we'll make sure it is within the parameters. Otherwise, you will have to reprint the whole thing."

Stunned, I replied, "But when I emailed you the example, you said it would be fine."

She finally made eye contact. "That was you?"

"Yes."

"Then it's fine." And she closed the box and stamped it as fit to print.

So, Av, while I do not think that things are perfect as they are (as clearly they are not), you can see why I am hesitant to allow a faceless bureaucrat in an office to determine the "competency" of another to reverse a decision that they didn't enter into freely. I am not that trusting.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one dehumanizes others more efficiently or with more skill than a faceless bureaucrat (or a university office secretary).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DoctorGamgee wrote:
So, Av, while I do not think that things are perfect as they are (as clearly they are not), you can see why I am hesitant to allow a faceless bureaucrat in an office to determine the "competency" of another to reverse a decision that they didn't enter into freely. I am not that trusting.


Nice to see you around Doc. Very Happy

That story is madness. Very Happy And yes, believe me, I fully realise the dangers inherent in it. It's a classic case of "who gets to decide."

But we'd already be interfering with people's "rights" before we even got to that point. The worst that could happen in this scenario is the bureaucrat says "you're not competent to have children."

Which would then be open to appeal etc.

Still seems a lesser evil than simply allowing everybody to procreate regardless of their circumstances / suitability... Wink

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Supreme Court just ruled that "offensive" trademarks or brand names are protected by the First Amendment, meaning that the Washington Redskins may continue to be called Redskins and that The Slants (an Asian musical group) may continue to call themselves The Slants.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The Supreme Court just ruled that "offensive" trademarks or brand names are protected by the First Amendment, meaning that the Washington Redskins may continue to be called Redskins and that The Slants (an Asian musical group) may continue to call themselves The Slants.

It's sad that it takes a SCOTUS ruling to clarify something that should have been clear ever since the 1st amendment was written. Protecting offensive speech is the whole point, otherwise there would be no need to guarantee this particular freedom. The fact that something this obvious has to go all the way to the Supreme Court is a sad testament to how political correctness has clouded the issue. It never should have needed ANY court--it's fucking common sense--much less our highest court. What is wrong with people? (Answer: progressivism.)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least now there is a clear Supreme Court ruling so perhaps some of the "we must all play nicely with each other" crap can stop.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The case where a Border Patrol agent shot and killed a teenager on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande, leading to the family suing the agent and various U. S. Government agencies has been thrown back to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Initially, a district court judge dismissed the case so the family appealed. The appellate court ruled that the agent could be sued but the agencies could not. The 5th Circuit sided with the agent, saying he couldn't be sued because the teen was on the Mexican side of the border and not a U. S. Citizen.

The Texas Tribune says the case is "unanswered" but the 5th Circuit already gave its ruling, granting immunity to the agent and the agencies. That is why the family appealed to the Supreme Court; their decision to send it back to the 5th means that the previous decision is most likely going to stand--it is rare for courts to reverse themselves.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The case where a Border Patrol agent shot and killed a teenager on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande, leading to the family suing the agent and various U. S. Government agencies has been thrown back to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Initially, a district court judge dismissed the case so the family appealed. The appellate court ruled that the agent could be sued but the agencies could not. The 5th Circuit sided with the agent, saying he couldn't be sued because the teen was on the Mexican side of the border and not a U. S. Citizen.

The Texas Tribune says the case is "unanswered" but the 5th Circuit already gave its ruling, granting immunity to the agent and the agencies. That is why the family appealed to the Supreme Court; their decision to send it back to the 5th means that the previous decision is most likely going to stand--it is rare for courts to reverse themselves.


Seems to me that the courts are saying that it's open season on Mexicans as long as the shooter is on this side of the border and the Mexican is on the other side of the border.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, me too...

Same old story...not a US citizen? No rights for you. (Funny, isn't the US a signatory to the UDHR?)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Seems to me that the courts are saying that it's open season on Mexicans as long as the shooter is on this side of the border and the Mexican is on the other side of the border.


In this instance the teen on the Mexican side was only throwing rocks--the shooting was definitely unnecessary.

The Supreme Court is set to hear the case of the baker who refused to make a cake for a homosexual couple's wedding because of religious reasons. As we have noted elsewhere, business owners retain the right to refuse service to customers as long as they understand that 1) turning away paying customers is a really bad idea and 2) refusing service invites other customers to stay away from your store. If I have things for sale you cannot force me to sell you something if I don't want to.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


In this instance the teen on the Mexican side was only throwing rocks--the shooting was definitely unnecessary.


But nothing is going to be done or even said about it. That's just wrong.

As for the baker, agreed. If somebody refuses on grounds like that, go to a different baker. And tell everybody you know not to buy from him. Suing somebody over shit like that is just petty.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Seems to me that the courts are saying that it's open season on Mexicans as long as the shooter is on this side of the border and the Mexican is on the other side of the border.


In this instance the teen on the Mexican side was only throwing rocks--the shooting was definitely unnecessary.

The Supreme Court is set to hear the case of the baker who refused to make a cake for a homosexual couple's wedding because of religious reasons. As we have noted elsewhere, business owners retain the right to refuse service to customers as long as they understand that 1) turning away paying customers is a really bad idea and 2) refusing service invites other customers to stay away from your store. If I have things for sale you cannot force me to sell you something if I don't want to.


change that to "baker refused to make cake for interacial wedding", or "baker refused to make cake for Catholic wedding", or "baker refused cake for hispanic wedding". Or better yet, "Apartment owner refused to rent to hispanic couple, or Baptist couple,".

If this place catered only to religious organizations, I might be more inclined to hear thier argument. Best bet for them is to get out of the wedding cake business.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I own a business then I determine which customers with whom I want to do business. If the government tells me how I am to run my business then it isn't my business anymore, only something the government allows me to run and so I might as well not be in business for myself. Either I run my business or the government runs it; which way is it?

On the other hand, if you turn away paying customers then you deserve to go bankrupt while your competitors gladly welcome those whom you have turned away.

You cannot externally force people to treat others with respect; that is something which comes from within. If you don't think of other people as your equals and fellow human beings then no amount of legal repercussions will make you a better person. At best, you are merely in compliance with the law but you are still an asshole...and who wants to do business with an asshole?

In this particular case, though, the baker has no case--Colorado law clearly forade him from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and I suspect this is how the SCOTUS will rule.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:
change that to "baker refused to make cake for interacial wedding", or "baker refused to make cake for Catholic wedding", or "baker refused cake for hispanic wedding". Or better yet, "Apartment owner refused to rent to hispanic couple, or Baptist couple,".

If this place catered only to religious organizations, I might be more inclined to hear thier argument. Best bet for them is to get out of the wedding cake business.
It's not the same at all. You've got the facts wrong. They didn't refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding. As the baker himself said, he'd sell any cake in his shop to anyone, regardless of sexual orientation. What he said he wouldn't do is decorate it in a way that celebrated gay marriage. It's not the people who were being refused a cake, it's specific writing/decoration/message that the baker refused to put on the cake.

If the government can force you to write stuff you don't agree with, you no longer have freedom of speech. What if I'm a freelance writer and someone wants me to write stories about gay people. Am I not allowed to turn the job down because I don't feel comfortable writing and/or "glorifying" such a thing? If I did turn it down, have I just discriminated on the basis of sexual orientation?

You should be able to specialize in any niche you want. For instance, prostitution is legal in Nevada. Should male prostitutes be forced to have sex with men if they're hetero even though they prefer only to service women? Why is that not "discrimination based on sexual orientation?"

What if I make hetero porno, and a gay couple sues me because I don't want to make a movie with them?

You should be able to specialize in straight or gay services if you want. You should be able to choose your target customer.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
It's not the people who were being refused a cake, it's specific writing/decoration/message that the baker refused to put on the cake.


Agree that that puts a different slant on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect another unspoken undercurrent is that the couple in question was upset that this guy didn't celebrate their life as a homosexual couple. I won't discriminate against people but that doesn't mean that I have to support them, either. I am not required to approve of the choices you make or your stated self-image.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly, but I think it's likely an outgrowth of that litigious culture y'all seem to have...somebody was "nasty" to them, so they sued.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
change that to "baker refused to make cake for interacial wedding", or "baker refused to make cake for Catholic wedding", or "baker refused cake for hispanic wedding". Or better yet, "Apartment owner refused to rent to hispanic couple, or Baptist couple,".

If this place catered only to religious organizations, I might be more inclined to hear thier argument. Best bet for them is to get out of the wedding cake business.
It's not the same at all. You've got the facts wrong. They didn't refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding. As the baker himself said, he'd sell any cake in his shop to anyone, regardless of sexual orientation. What he said he wouldn't do is decorate it in a way that celebrated gay marriage. It's not the people who were being refused a cake, it's specific writing/decoration/message that the baker refused to put on the cake.


It's the difference that makes no difference. They stated that they would not make a wedding cake that celebrates same gender weddings. They won't decorate it with 2 men as the wedding couple or 2 women as the wedding couple.

Again I say, change the wording a bit here, and have them say "I won't put a black figure and a white figure on the cake as a couple celebrating a marraige because I believe it immoral for the races to mix and marry."

My guess is 9-0 SCOTUS ruling against the owners.
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