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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SkurjMaster wrote:
Just a quicky, but not intentionally pointed or snide, comment, but do I remember correctly reading that the writing strategy/framework for the LC was something called 'stirring cycles?'

Hmm. I wish you could provide some information about "stirring cycles", as I cannot find anything. Is this perhaps similar to "narrative crescendos"?

Quote:
"The essence of Donaldson's artistry--and the key to his success--is his ability to construct narrative crescendos that build and build and keep on building, unremittingly, until they have reached a pitch which no composer of texts has ever attained before." -- Interzone


Orlion wrote:
And it's hard to distinguish between "honest opinion" and "defecating on your discussion".

No, it's not. You are perpetuating the falsehood that I am opposed to certain opinions. I cannot overstate how wrong that is. What I am opposed to is unable to post thoughts without incurring sadistic responses. And I cannot overstate how sadistic it is to foster falsehoods against others, such as the falsehood that I claim any opinion I disagree with is defecation, or the falsehood that my suggesting there are things to discover about the Chronicles is calling anyone deficient. Personally, I find it very easy to distinguish opinions about the Chronicles from fostering falsehoods against others.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


Orlion wrote:
And it's hard to distinguish between "honest opinion" and "defecating on your discussion".

No, it's not. You are perpetuating the falsehood that I am opposed to certain opinions. I cannot overstate how wrong that is. What I am opposed to is unable to post thoughts without incurring sadistic responses. And I cannot overstate how sadistic it is to foster falsehoods against others, such as the falsehood that I claim any opinion I disagree with is defecation, or the falsehood that my suggesting there are things to discover about the Chronicles is calling anyone deficient. Personally, I find it very easy to distinguish opinions about the Chronicles from fostering falsehoods against others.
Your narcissistic shtick it getting really old and tedious... Chill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, calling me narcissistic is another thing you can do.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, for one, will apologize for being a part of the escalation of the tension in this thread. That said, I have no intention of engaging the LC any further until I decide it would be enjoyable to read them again Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O..gray hairs or not,,I sense that you have not ruled out another read down the path of future.. I certainly am getting other realities out of LC that I may easily have missed in the 1st and 2nd Chrons. Yet to me its more of a " exercise the muscle" thing than age and experience thang.

I understand your analogy except..that applies to everything all the time..Your Life is not and can not be the same as any other's. Reality IS Subjective. Each Individual experiences Life Their Way. What YOU DO get out of TCoTC is a reflection of You..Howabout...a mirror has no regard or prejudice for age. Thats where I'm going...Art is supposed to be like a mirror ,,reflecting back to the observer a reflection of itself. I think Donaldson's stated purpose to turn the Fantasy genre into Art,,he has succeeded at..Shakespeare?..Yes. And just as more is gained and or lost with every read of Hamlet , or MidSummers Nights Dream.over time..its not that one read at one time is any more valid than another read at another time..but as a whole, all the reads make it Art. Just as I donot believe Shakespeare's work is only intended for any age group, I do not believe Donaldson's work is intended for any particular age group.

So..I still have the question of..if you don't like it,, are confused by it,,are disappointed by it,,Especially after the Long Haul of It..the Investment..then what is one to do about it?..Announcing to the world..Hey I didn't like it..I'm dissatisfied with it.. then to me, thats like announcing that you breath air....So what? life can be a Big Disappointment..What are you going to do about it?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend, Orlion, when it comes to Z's comments about the author of a thread having certain intentions, I really do not intend for us to be at each other's throats here. I have expressed earlier some disapproval at lurch's tone, which I only intended as a request for a different kind of discussion. lurch provided that for me, to a large extent, in his very next post, and that is where I would prefer to leave it. I'd like it if you two could leave it where it lies as well.

With that said, on with my spirited, but determinedly civil, disagreements with lurch Razz Twisted Evil

lurch wrote:
So..I still have the question of..if you don't like it,, are confused by it,,are disappointed by it,,Especially after the Long Haul of It..the Investment..then what is one to do about it?..Announcing to the world..Hey I didn't like it..I'm dissatisfied with it.. then to me, thats like announcing that you breath air....So what? life can be a Big Disappointment..What are you going to do about it?


Well, this. This here is exactly what I'm doing about it. I learn best through dialogue, and that's what we're having. Helpful dialogue is not achieved, however, through simply nodding, saying yes, and taking people's word for it. Just because I- and other people who were disappointed, but whom I don't speak for- am not quickly agreeing with you and accepting your points, does not mean that there's an unwillingness to learn about your position. I am genuinely curious what the fans of TLD got out of the book, and I have been lurking across the threads that have a more positive focus, as well as trying my best to understand what is being said in here. I've had some things pointed out to me that I hadn't considered, some aspects of the Last Chrons I hadn't appreciated brought to light. These are interesting and positive things. They make me think. What they don't do is just magic away the serious disappointments I had with the last book especially. Mostly they have balanced my view of the book, helped me see what else is there.

Mostly, what people want is to be understood, and in turn to understand others. That's the whole purpose of a discussion, at least it should be. It feels on here there certainly is a desire from each side to be understood, but when we feel dismissed our desire to understand others will decrease dramatically.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a more meta-discussion in a thread I started (in an attempt to take some of the heat out of exactly this kind of disagreement):
What I was mainly trying to explore was the effect that work which people find inspirational (like the 1st & 2nd Chrons) has on readers expectations. From the very start I did not like the LCs at all and yet I read the whole series. This is exceptionally odd behaviour. Would you return to a restaurant where you had a bad meal? I find the exceptional nature of the behaviour in myself interesting.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed The Last Chronicles right up until the very end, which seemed rushed, anti-climactic, and too cheerful for my tastes. Then again, I am not used to happy endings, preferring instead the sort of "mixed blessing" endings like we got in The Gap Cycle. Closing the story with "and they all lived happily ever after" should be reserved for children's stories or fairy tales.

Not to speak for him--some of you know him personally--but I doubt Mr. Donaldson writes for me (or any of us, for that matter); rather, he writes for himself. If we feel the same emotions he feels at writing something the good for us--we are on the same page he is. If we do not feel the same emotions then too bad and we need to sort out for ourselves what it is we feel then get over it. Just because he writes something doesn't mean we have to like it in its entirety.

Opinions are like the tiles in a mosaic. Viewed up close the colors may clash and look garish next to each other; however, upon taking a few steps back we see the overall picture and it is often quite pleasing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go again. I honestly believed - foolish me - that the high-handed arrogance of the most fervid of TLD apologists here had been put to bed and that he had *finally* worked out that reactions to art are necessarily subjective and therefore are destined to differ, possibly hugely.

But no... here we are again, back to the messianic "Aaah, grasshopper. You simply aren't profound enough to understand these weighty matters. If only you'd read all the works of André Breton/taken more mind-expanding hallucinogens back in the day/spent a decade self-administering peyote enemas whilst contemplating the mysteries of the cosmos/owned a matching SRD pyjama and comforter set, you'd truly get what a masterpiece the Last Chrons are...". Sorry, but that's utter horseshit.

lurch wrote:
..ha haaa....you all remind me of the guy in back of the English Lit class going on about how Shakespeare sucked and didn't make sense. Yea yeaaa,,trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole and then blame the carpenter because its not working.

The issue isn't whether you like TLD or the End or not. The issue is your own words on why you have concluded what you have. Not one of you brave souls have answered my question...Do You Like being Disappointed, Confused, Bitter etc etc.? If you like that ,,what can I say, you've said it all.

If you want to do something about that unpleasant state, then there are ways being offered here. After all, this is a fan site...If you throw your hands up in the air , and say,,I can't do that,,or won't do that..to me, thats a lot of negative that is easily overcame with just another try. But once again, its easier to blame the messenger than heed the message.
There's a fairy tale that deals with this exact thing... the possibility that there are some so blinded by adulation that they cannot accept that their favourite author/painter/band may have released a clunker... it's called "The Emperor's New Clothes".

I've mentioned this before in other threads where anyone daring to suggest that the LCs - and particularly TLD - have faults is instantly set upon by one notable foaming-at-the-mouth SRD mouthpiece. What invariably ensues is that said self-appointed John the Baptist in turn insults, patronises and demeans anyone expressing dissatisfaction, banging on and on about how the critic must have a personal problem in being "closed" to the book's message, or must masochistically "enjoy bitterness and disappointment", or must be in some way intellectually or experientially benighted, or must be ill-read or ill-educated, or most often, a combination of all such slights. Well, newsflash here - that's interpretative fascism of the highest arrogance.

It is a matter of the most unabrogated hubris to tell people that they're duty-bound to find the good in something and that, if they cannot, then they're the one with the problem. That's ludicrous - what happens if to them that alleged "goodness" is simply not there? What are you suggesting? That they hurtle down the road of self-delusion??? That's farcical and fan-boi-ism taken to laughable extremes. If someone served you a turd sandwich, what are you gonna do... find the good in that??? Please...

Lurch, I strongly disagree with your take on the LCs but I freely acknowledge your right to have such an interpretation. What I cannot tolerate is your instantly talking down to anyone who expresses a differing opinion. For someone who goes banging on and on about the core message being one of Love and Humanity and the need to "open oneself", your uber-patronising and dismissively contemptuous approach to anyone at variance to yourself leaves a whole lot to be desired in terms of open-mindedness, respect and sheer good manners. That's truly ironic.

Despite your veiled accusation to anyone disagreeing that they just don't have enough of an education to appreciate the LCs, I'm certainly not going to vaunt whatever level of education in/experience of modern literature that I may or may not have. I don't see the point. However, as to your frenzied attempt to jam the entirety of the LCs kicking and screaming into an interpretative mould of Breton-esque surrealism - even though I believe SRD himself recently informed that he'd never even heard of André Breton - I will say that yes, I'm quite aware of Breton's works. In my personal opinion - and do please note the connotations of those two words "personal" and "opinion" - in attempting such a forcing, all you're displaying is your own fervid confirmation bias. I actually also think that you're doing both the author and the oeuvre a disservice, but hey, each to their own.

Am I pleased for you that you've found things in the LCs that delight you? Of course I am. Do I think you're "right"? Yes I do - BUT for you only, and NOT necessarily for anyone else at all. That's an attempt at being both open-minded and respectful, but you just don't get it. And from reading this thread and several others, it's not just me who finds your self-aggrandizing sermonising distasteful - your dictatorial didactic stance was memorably and amusingly lampooned by someone in another thread as being a classic example of "only my palantir is clear enough", but it sadly seems that this too has failed to register. Take a step back and look at yourself for a second, huh? Perhaps you should actually ask yourself "Who am I?" You certainly go banging on and on about it enough - why not do it?

My take on the LCs and TLD in particular is that SRD let his readership down - and sure, admittedly against his own self-set extremely high standards. Okay, I find his use of symbolism to expound his own personal view of metaphysics of intellectual interest - to me, it's pretty obvious that SRD likes his Jungian psychology, as I've opined upon elsewhere. But where SRD fails for me in the LCs is with a lack of attention to the vitally important narrative level of his allegory. I don't like the pacing, I don't like the paper-thin characterisation of all but the central protagonists, I don't like the blatant plot devices and I really don't like the clunker of an ending. It fails to emotionally engage me, leaving me seeing the LCs as not much more than a sermon or lecture from a polemicist - cerebrally of interest, but massively insufficiently clad in any involving and engaging narrative. Compared to the culminations of both the First and Second Chrons, TLD is emotionally speaking the weakest of shadows.

But that's just my opinion. As I keep saying when confronted by compulsive SRD wannabe messiahs who trumpet that they and only they are the way the truth and the life when it comes to appreciating/understanding the LCs - hey, other opinions are available. And they'll be equally at least every bit as valid.

Vive la différence, remember?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I enjoyed The Last Chronicles right up until the very end, which seemed rushed, anti-climactic, and too cheerful for my tastes.


That about sums it up for me. It seemed way too out of character for SRD as well. Every other book I've read of his had a little more emotional punch at the end. SRD should have drank some more Puissant Kool-aid before wrapping TLD up.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinswatch wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I enjoyed The Last Chronicles right up until the very end, which seemed rushed, anti-climactic, and too cheerful for my tastes.


That about sums it up for me. It seemed way too out of character for SRD as well. Every other book I've read of his had a little more emotional punch at the end. SRD should have drank some more Puissant Kool-aid before wrapping TLD up.

-jay


You hit the nail on the head, Jay.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe instead of Jumping the Shark, we should call the ending of TLD "Pulping the Roger"?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Bitch-slapping the Despiser"
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
My take on the LCs and TLD in particular is that SRD let his readership down - and sure, admittedly against his own self-set extremely high standards. Okay, I find his use of symbolism to expound his own personal view of metaphysics of intellectual interest - to me, it's pretty obvious that SRD likes his Jungian psychology, as I've opined upon elsewhere. But where SRD fails for me in the LCs is with a lack of attention to the vitally important narrative level of his allegory. I don't like the pacing, I don't like the paper-thin characterisation of all but the central protagonists, I don't like the blatant plot devices and I really don't like the clunker of an ending. It fails to emotionally engage me, leaving me seeing the LCs as not much more than a sermon or lecture from a polemicist - cerebrally of interest, but massively insufficiently clad in any involving and engaging narrative. Compared to the culminations of both the First and Second Chrons, TLD is emotionally speaking the weakest of shadows.


You completely freaking nailed this. This is exactly how I feel, set out in a more coherent and concise way than I was finding possible.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for honoring opinions, but it -is- annoying when Why It Sucked becomes the topic of Every. Single. Thread. There are fifty other threads on the last chronicles sucking. I was hoping we'd have a thread on Covenant's character arc. I hope to impress upon you how impossible this makes it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess this thread has pulped the roger.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I'm all for honoring opinions, but it -is- annoying when Why It Sucked becomes the topic of Every. Single. Thread. There are fifty other threads on the last chronicles sucking. I was hoping we'd have a thread on Covenant's character arc. I hope to impress upon you how impossible this makes it.

Complaining about other people's opinions all the time makes people not want to post. At this point, the Tank feels friendlier than the book forums for me. Razz

And, good post, TheFallen. You covered a lot of good points.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I'm all for honoring opinions, but it -is- annoying when Why It Sucked becomes the topic of Every. Single. Thread. There are fifty other threads on the last chronicles sucking. I was hoping we'd have a thread on Covenant's character arc. I hope to impress upon you how impossible this makes it.


I think you start your thread, Wayfriend. And as long as some dissent is allowed, and handled with respect, I think that's ok. It's when people start to make it personal that it gets out of hand. I try to keep my opinion very much to the point, and will talk about what I liked as well. But the tone of condescension towards those of us who may not like parts of the LC that has accompanied this particular thread, that is basically Cambo deciding to post his opinion, is not warranted.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ananda wrote:
Complaining about other people's opinions all the time makes people not want to post.

It's a good thing no one did that then. So let's not keep re-iterating the implication that someone is, okay?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Ananda wrote:
Complaining about other people's opinions all the time makes people not want to post.

It's a good thing no one did that then. So let's not keep re-iterating the implication that someone is, okay?
Although strictly speaking you're correct, WF (nobody exactly complained), certainly there was the usual arrogance, derision and patronisation from the usual suspect(s) towards anyone daring not to laud the LCs to the heavens.

Let me state for the record that, when it comes to matters SRD at least, I absolutely do NOT include you in this bracket. Whereas I may differ in opinion from you on occasion when it comes to TCoTC - although not that often, frankly - IMO you always express yourself clearly, fairly and cogently, usually with a host of well-researched and quoted references. I have a huge deal of respect for such an approach - it's a shame other more fervent LC advocates take a far more hubristic, confrontational and dismissive position. Oh and as an aside, I didn't think anyone was "defecating" on your opinions in the least?

I also understand your frustration - given that you're someone who sincerely appreciates the LCs - at the paucity of positive threads about them. I can only echo rdhopeca and suggest you start your own positive topics - even the most jaundiced of those disappointed would agree that there are some good things about the LCs. But complaining that the 50 or so negative topics are boring? That's a step too far, I think... it seems to be a majority consensus from what I can gather, and people absolutely should be allowed to express whatever reaction or opinion they've had upon finishing TLD. Let's face it, we're all informed readers who are invested in the Chrons, or else we wouldn't be here and posting.
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Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



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* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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