TWL Chapter 13 Demondim-Spawn (The Un-Dissectable Vain!)

danlo · Last edited by danlo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

We have lost our "Read-Lead" for chapters 13 & 14... Dromond has, once again, come to the rescue and will post chapter 14, Pursuit by the 31st. Fortunately that was voluntary, the white gold did not stir and I did not have invoke the words, "Nekhrimah, Dromond! save me." Very Happy

As Dromond and I did, way back in The Illearth War, with "Dissecting Elena", we will now begin another "round-table" discussion on chapter 13, Demondim-Spawn. birdandbear has agreed to help me start, or co-moderate, this conversation. I will begin a bare-bones introductory outline followed by her contribution. After that I will give my reply, unless one of you jumps in first. I do implore you to allow at least 10 "discussion-replys" before dropping big quotes and deep analysis. Look at the beginning of this topic like a bookclub gathering-we are having tea, or sipping watered down diamondraught-sitting around the "round-table" and just throwing out our intial thoughts on this chapter...

Demondim-Spawn bare bones outline:
*Covenant awakes in Andelian to find an inscrutible Ur-vile like creation standing near by.
*This confirms that his talks with his dead the night before was real
*This creation is Vain a gift from Saltheart Foamfollower who begged Covenant to accept him "in the name of Hotash Slay", and even though Covenant is very wary of anything Ur-vile-places his trust in Salty.
* Vain does not talk, his purpose is unknown and once, only once, he may come to Covenant's aid by the invocation: Nekhirmah, Vain.
*Deprived of healthsense Andelain does everything it can to compensate for TC, invigorated by aliantha he starts back, pursed by a shadow, to the place on the Mithil were he left his compainions.

*They are gone! Confused he gains elevation to search for them, but the gnarly vegetation occludes any trail.
*Did a Rider take off with them? He makes a sign and heads some-what westward-then gaining a spire espies a canyon wall and thinks to head north towards it.
*When he stumbles down the spire he finds himself and Vain surrounded by four crazed men-one cracks Vain over the head with a club and it has no effect!
*Covenant talks them into taking him where Linden and the others have gone-but as long as he doesn't use his ring they were planning to take him to their home, anyway. As a prisoner!

*They take him into a cracked box canyon within the canyon wall where illkept heavy wooden huts are raised on stilts against the onslaught of the Sun of Rain. Stonemight Woodhelven.
*There he meets the leader of the community a disheveled female Graveler wearing bright emerald rainment who imprisons him (as Vain goes along) in a high standing hut. She knows he is the halfhand who bears the white ring the Clave seeks.

...and here I shall pass this along to birdandbear to finish the outline and offer her initial thoughts...
_________________
True heroics must be carefully planned---and seriously avoided-Vlad Taltos

birdandbear · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:54 am Post subject:

Okay, sorry this is late everybody. We celebrated Christmas with Colin's family today, and it went WAY longer than I thought it would. We just now got back.... Embarassed

*Inside the hut, Covenant tries to think. His prison is a sloppily made thing, like all the other dwellings in the Woodhelvin, and it's possible he could break out of it with his bare hands - but freedom is not necessarily what he wants at this point. He is more interested in finding out what happened to Linden and the Stonedowners.
* He briefly considers commanding Vain to spring him, and then discards the idea. He isn't that desperate yet.
*Angry at himself, or Vain, Covenant begins methodically kicking out the door of his prison, ignoring threats that he will be clubbed for his pains. As he had hoped, the Graveler is quickly summoned to deal with his assault on the door.
*He demands to speak with her, bluffing threats of power. She is disinterested - she seems preocccupied with some personal torment - but she grudgingly informs him that one Santonin na-Mhoram-in rode into the Woodhelvin and took his friends, along with something called the "Stonemight," (far more terrible a deprivation to her mind) to Revelstone almost two days ago.
*In recompense for this theft, the un-named Graveler intends to shed Covenant's blood at the rising of the sun, and then take his ring and use it as a bargaining chip for the return of the Stonemight.

*Covenant spends a terrible night alone with the enigmatic Vain, trying to summon up his power without a trigger, aware that every second brings his friends closer to Revelstone and death. He can't even sleep, tormented by dreams of Linden screaming for him.
*Just before dawn a coterie of village men come for him. Left with an aching head after a febrile escape attempt, Covenant is bound to a stake placed so that he will be the first thing in the village to feel the touch of the Sunbane. With the sun in his face, the villagers stone him with small pebbles.
*The Graveler approaches with an evil looking black knife. Covenant, desperate, asks her for Sunstone. When she informs him that they have none, he asks about the Stonemight in an attempt to stall for time.
*When the Graveler speaks of the Stonemight she looks mad. And with her description, Covenant comes to a realization with sick horror: The Stonemight is a palm sized flake of the Illearth Stone. The thing that Foamfollower died so that Covenant could destroy.

*In horror, and renewed conviction that he must reach Revelstone, Covenant is forced to use the only weapon at his disposal - "Nekrimah, Vain! Save me."
*And Vain answers. From twenty paces away, he closes his fist, somehow causing the knife to stop it's murderous plunge toward Covenant's heart. He bursts the stake to splinters, freeing Covenant, and while the villagers stand stunned, Covenant confiscates some supplies from the nearest house, and makes ready to persue his friends.

Wow! What a great chapter! This is the last interesting thing Vain will do for quite awhile. And how terrible to think that a sliver of the Illearth Stone has been lying around this region for millenia, befouling everything it touches, spreading it's reek of evil throughout the entire area. For that reason alone, all other considerations aside, it is imperative that Covenant reach Revelstone to destroy it.
I also find it interesting that when Vain freed Covenant, and he fell, Vain caught him and set him on his feet. Probably doesn't mean anything, but that one tiny gesture, in my eyes, adds a touch of humanity, maybe even compassion, to the otherwise totally inscrutable Demondin-Spawn.

Oh, and here's a new word for the list: nystagmus
Say what? Wink

_________________
"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do now, today. Because if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
-Angel

variol son · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:49 am Post subject:

Even though Vain's purpose is unknown, Foamfollower himself says that it is greatly desirable or something along those lines, and I am pretty sure that TC recalls those words the next morning. For some reason this always stood out to me, even before I had read the whole second chronicles and knew Vain's purpose.

Anyway, I noted that TC's command was quite vague. "Save me" leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I wonder how vague the command can be before it becomes useless.

I hope that wasn't too in depth danlo. Very Happy

Sum sui generis
Vs
_________________
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.

Not a candle left to light, then.

I survived being a General Discussion Moderator!

duchess of malfi · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:56 pm Post subject:

save me...rather vague indeed, Variol Son! Wink

There could be a huge range of interpretation in that...
_________________
Love as thou wilt.

danlo · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:12 pm Post subject:

Haha! No, thanks VS! I think the reason Vain catches Covenant is that the post he's tied to is set in a deep crack at the northern end of the canyon floor. And that there was the possibility TC may have stumbled and fallen in.

The existence of a fragment of the Illearth Stone--kinda, sorta--supports my crazy theory about the creation of The Vale of Crystal (see that chapter): that a Raver was in the area (during TIW) and may either been experimenting with it or engaged in battle and blew out the cliff (or canyon) walls.

I know this is hedging towards deep thought but I'm always struck by the exact sequence of how Vain was given to Salty, here. A million questions arise like: how long, in secret, were the Ur-viles working on his creation, did they begin work on him right after Foul's defeat, they must have picked a time when Foul was terribly weak to enact the exchange, and how did they commune with the dead? Through Caer-Caveral? And if it was that far back just how long has Vain been standing around in Andelian?

Sorry, I kinda broke my own rule. But I'm sure you've asked the same type of questions to yourself and others before. And even though this chapter stirs up alot of toughts about, Ravers, white gold, Ur-viles, Foul, Vain and what actually happened during the intermitent 4000 (or what ever) years I thought I'd ask them before you did-RAZZ! (it's good to be moderator! Very Happy

) Oh well TWL isn't fair-give them back something broken...

Anyway it's very tempting to jump ahead with all this--so please remember your spoilers and have fun! Vain

I LOVE Vain! Vain

_________________
True heroics must be carefully planned---and seriously avoided-Vlad Taltos

Dromond · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:45 pm Post subject:

I've always been fascinated by this chapter. Just looking around the place Covenant can tell something is 'different'.

Stonemight Woodhelven seems slovenly, as though the people are lazy or careless, and that seems impossible from people of the Land, at any time in their History. And a chill went up my back the first time I realized that the Stonemight was a flake from the Illearth Stone. I've wondered if it idly fell in that area, or if it was found and brought to this place.
There seems to be no inhabited place in this area on any map,so was the original name 'Stonemight'?
_________________

duchess of malfi · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:08 pm Post subject:

Dromond, I've even wondered before if the Raver dropped it on purpose, just to create future havoc and trouble... Mad

_________________
Love as thou wilt.

birdandbear · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:25 pm Post subject:

I think you can see a little more in this chapter of Covenant's growing regard for Linden in this chapter. It is Linden he calls for over and over when he finds his companions gone, and it is Linden he dreams of, Linden in danger, Linden screaming for him. I find it so poignant that Covenant is able to feel so deeply for her, with all his uncertainties about her role in the Land, and his gnawing suspicion that he has sold his usefullness for Joan. A lesser man would be jealous of her possibly usurping his "savior" role, I think.

And this situation with the "Stonemight" is such a lose/lose situation! On one hand, the Woodhelvin has probably not had to shed blood for it's survival in centuries, but on the other....they were using the Illearth Stone and it defiled their entire existence just by being in the village! I don't know which would have pleased Foul more....Does he prefer people dead or degraded?

And Vain....I wonder if he really would have just stood there and let the Graveler kill Covenant? It seems obvious that he would have, but I'm not so sure, given that Spoiler:

although Vain seems more interested in following Linden around once they catch up with her, he might never have done so if Covenant had been dead already. And he will prove himself capable of independent action to save her when there is no other succor available...

_________________
"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do now, today. Because if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
-Angel

danlo · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:28 pm Post subject:

Makes you want to go back to the first two books (hint, hint, Quote King and Queen) to see how, if at all, the area of Crystal Stonedown and Stonemight Woodhelven are originally described. No I don't think anyone lived in either till after the end of The Power That Preserves...I really liked the analogy to the crazed Droll Rockworm-definately a fabulous precusor to the reality of the Stonemight.

Covenant's dead, Mhoram especially, seem to have a sense of how dreadful the Land has become-so maybe (combined with his known ineptnitude in triggering his ring) they foresaw that TC would face serious danger and be forced to use Vain quickly.

I've often wondered exactly what Nekrimah means: Awaken? Become aware? It looks just like the old language-and if so is it original Demondim/Vile speak handed down in secret through Ur-vile lore for ages and ages?
_________________
True heroics must be carefully planned---and seriously avoided-Vlad Taltos

dlbpharmd · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject:

I've always wondered how the Stonemight came to this area as well. What caused it to be struck from Fleshharrower's stone? How much power would it take to do this? I remember Mhoram (or was it Lord Hyrim) who marvelled at the Despiser's master of the Illearth stone, such that he could cause three smaller versions to be formed and gave one to each of the Giant-Ravers.

I also wonder why it took the Clave so long to confiscate the stone - surely Gibbon/Sheol wanted this for himself - or, perhaps Santonin was a Raver?

And why didn't the Graveler of Stonemight Woodhelvin fight to keep the Stonemight? Surely with a piece of the Illearth Stone, she was more than a match for Santonin - or was she? Is it possible that the Banefire/Sunbane, at this point, is more powerful than the Illearth Stone?

Dromond · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:05 pm Post subject:

Several important questions, dlbpharmd!

A few of them I think can be answered by:

Fear of the Grim has people of the Land willing to bow to the Riders, conceding whatever they demand, painful and expensive as it may be.
_________________

birdandbear · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:28 pm Post subject:

I wonder if it ever occurred to the Graveler to use it as a weapon? It may not have, since she had no idea what it was in the first place. It was just the "Stonemight," that allowed the village to prosper without the shedding of blood. I doubt anyone who ever used it after it was found had any idea how powerful it really was. Like Gollum with his Precious, it was a beautiful thing that made life much easier, and fostered a sort of sick addiction in it's weilder, but they had no idea what it really was.

Actually the effects of the Illearth Stone on a mortal bearer have always reminded me of those of the One Ring. How else could it corrupt three Bloodguard?
_________________
"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do now, today. Because if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
-Angel

dlbpharmd · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:06 pm Post subject:

The comparison to Gollum is certainly appropriate - I can picture the Graveler crouching over the Stonemight, muttering "My Own. MY PRECIOUS."

dlbpharmd · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:08 pm Post subject:

danlo · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:24 pm Post subject:

The Waynhim or the Ur-Viles? Confused

_________________
True heroics must be carefully planned---and seriously avoided-Vlad Taltos

Dromond · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:03 pm Post subject:

Spoiler:

Both. The Waynhim understand and try to command Vain when... well,soon! Smile

And they know his purpose instantly.

moderator's note: hush! Razz

_________________

Furls Fire · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:56 am Post subject:

Vain amazed me right from the start. I remember thinking, "what on earth is this all about??" Foamfollower giving Covenant an ur-vile??? Shocked

And then, as I read on and Covenant was taken prisoner by Stonemight Woodhelvin, (that name is another departure from the Land of old, "Stone" and "Wood" thrown together in one name), realizing what the "stonemight" actually was, I too wondered how such a fragment had come to them. Then, I started wondering what happened to all the fragments of the Stone that the Giant Ravers had held, I think Wildwood destroyed the one moksha Flesharrower wielded. But, what happened to the fragments Satanfist and Kinslaughter held?? To my knowledge, I don't recall anything being said about those fragments. In fact, I assumed that when the Stone itself was destroyed at the end of TPTP, that the fragments had somehow been destroyed with it. Not so, of course.

Also, I too groaned out loud when Covenant used his one command and just said "save me".
_________________
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.

~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

duchess of malfi · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:08 am Post subject:

I am at work and my books are at home, but this is what I think happened to the three Ravers' rocks:
1. recovered and returned to Foul's Creche by Korik and co.
2. destroyed by the Forestal
3. blew up in battle with Mhoram...
_________________
Love as thou wilt.

danlo · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:12 am Post subject:

Fouls Creche? What happened to the fragment Tull's fellow Bloodguard found that drove them mad? Did it make its way to Korik? Confused

Or was it completely lost? If so whereabouts?
_________________
True heroics must be carefully planned---and seriously avoided-Vlad Taltos

duchess of malfi · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:21 am Post subject:

Oh, I had thought the fragment recovered by Korik and the Bloodguard on the Seareach Mission was taken to Foul's Creche by them...???
_________________
Love as thou wilt.