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What If Hile Troy Had been The Lead?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: What If Hile Troy Had been The Lead? Reply with quote

So, while having a leper as the protagonist in a major work of fantasy WAS unusual, I do admit that not so long ago the thought had occurred to me that Hile Troy could have made a fascinating hero in what might have been a more conventional series.

Think about it: a born blind tactical genius winds up in a world of magic and fantasy where he rises to lead the defense of the Land ... and perhaps win the love of the beautiful and tragic High Lord Elena.

It wouldn't have been a series SRD could have written-- especially in the 70s-- but it might have made a fascinating read in its own right.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem with Hile Troy is that he was so single minded about things that it wouldn't have made things as exciting. Covenant's leprosy provided him with bitterness and anger, but Troy's blindness provided him with a particular skill (or at least from the perspective of the books).

Maybe a shorter book, but I don't know that it would have been an easy read if it was as long as the first or second chronicles.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile Troy would have defeated Foul, saved the land and won the girl. but I might be biased. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Hile Troy would have defeated Foul, saved the land and won the girl. but I might be biased. Smile


Hi sgt,

You might be biased, but wouldn't the outcome still remain the same - Foul would always be too strong for Troy. (Love is blind, and all that.)

So what if there were a set of keys to unlock the deeper mysteries in the Chronicles? My worry is that to talk of them would create spoilers for those who enjoy the puzzle.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile was created to fail. he never stood a fair chance.

but I believe action is better than action. while Thomas mewled about, Hile tried. give Hile the power that Thomas had, would he have succeeded?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Hile was created to fail. he never stood a fair chance.

but I believe action is better than action. while Thomas mewled about, Hile tried. give Hile the power that Thomas had, would he have succeeded?


A difficult question, no doubt.
Wildwood had reason to stop Troy from using Covenant's power. But then if Troy had succeeded in the first place, he and the Land's army would never have been in Garrotting Deep.
And my thinking along those lines were that if Troy were to be made un-blinded he would cease to be in love, and to be Troy.

What if Troy was Triock?
Ridiculous as that might sound, it does give some credence to Kaos Arcanna's idea of an epic love story.
The lives of Triock and Lena were forever altered with the arrival of Thomas Covenant and the emergence of Lord Foul and his Ravers.

Who else could have visited Soaring Woodhelven with sorrow festering in his heart? Triock has to be the prime suspect there.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Hile was the Hile we know [same person, just more info and a focus change]
It might be a decent book for completely generic crap.
Some people like "The Sword of Shannara" [however Shanblah is spelled].
Some peeps think Xanth/Anthony are better than Dune/Herbert.
Enjoy.

He is ONLY interesting because he is a counterpoint. Like Robin only matters cuz there IS Batman. All the alterations/retcons fail.

That role makes him extremely interesting.
The starring role makes him...meh.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite any apparent successes, the author considered Troy "dangerous", and unable to make "meaningful choices between destruction and preservation", and therefore "he makes decisions which bear an ineluctable resemblance to Kevin's". Why? Because he wasn't like Covenant. "He hasn't learned the kind of humility that comes from meeting his own inner Despiser face-to-face."

So how could such a story have a happy ending?

He would have to be a not-Troy in some way. Which defeats the purpose of the question posed.

Lot's of people like Hile Troy, but I always remember that he was intended to be a salutary example of the kind of heroics that seems all to the good (and, as such, is the usual fantasy fair) but is actually deeply flawed and inevitably destructive.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


So how could such a story have a happy ending?

He would have to be a not-Troy in some way. Which defeats the purpose of the question posed.



I guess that Covenant's defeat of Lord Foul and the destruction of Foul's Creche ultimately has the potential for a happy ending. Therein lies the possibilities.

It then occurred to me that the Land can exist in two alternative states of "reality": one under the influence of the Staff of Law, and one without.

Trying to explain how Triock can also be Troy, or for that matter, how Lena can also be Elena would be futile under the influence of the Staff of Law. But when the Staff has been destroyed, all bets are off.
Explaining the logic of the plot-lines are then by definition, Troy's concern - a need to maintain law and order.

The author allows us the freedom to explore the possibilities of dreams in a Land without the restriction of Law.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Follow up: Troy could be given the opportunity to learn more about his inner despiser and learn humility in the face of it. That could be part of a Troy-story, and I should have thought of that. But would he then be Hile Troy yet? Or, rather, would he still be the Hile Troy that everyone so admires?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy-story movie
Would need the right studio;
Pixar must make it
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
He is ONLY interesting because he is a counterpoint. Like Robin only matters cuz there IS Batman. All the alterations/retcons fail.

That role makes him extremely interesting.
The starring role makes him...meh.


That's also my view. Hile Troy's presence, and his fervent belief in the Land, challenge/counter Covenant's unbelief. Remember, also, that he is in the Land as a result of Atiaran's attempt to summon Covenant, which in turn was the consequence - on more than one level - of Covenant's first summoning to the Land.

I also largely agree with Wayfriend's first comment.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
He is ONLY interesting because he is a counterpoint. Like Robin only matters cuz there IS Batman. All the alterations/retcons fail.

That role makes him extremely interesting.
The starring role makes him...meh.
[/color]

Yep, that's pretty much my thought too. I can't really think I would go out and buy the book if it was Troy rather than Covenant.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumbs Up
DrPaul wrote:
Vraith wrote:
He is ONLY interesting because he is a counterpoint. Like Robin only matters cuz there IS Batman. All the alterations/retcons fail.

That role makes him extremely interesting.
The starring role makes him...meh.


That's also my view. Hile Troy's presence, and his fervent belief in the Land, challenge/counter Covenant's unbelief. Remember, also, that he is in the Land as a result of Atiaran's attempt to summon Covenant, which in turn was the consequence - on more than one level - of Covenant's first summoning to the Land.

I also largely agree with Wayfriend's first comment.


There is a glaring gap in the story ... unfortunately it slipped from my mind the moment I saw it.
But the clues are all still there.
Atiaran was the Stonedown's mid-wife. So you would expect her to have delivered Elena. She also, as you pointed out, brought Troy into the Land using a rod of power - an accident, but a fact no less.
Lord Mhoram used a rod of power on Kevin's Watch to send a message to Troy's army. That rod was then given to Triock.

As I said before, Triock has always been my prime suspect for the Stonedowner who visited Soaring Woodhelvin - casting his aspersions and criticisms under the coercion of the Raver Jehannum.

There are two key events which join those two story lines, that is, both the Woodhelvin and Revelwood were destroyed in fire.

At the moment, I have no enthusiam for trying to hammer those two story-lines into a dovetail. I'm enjoying The Last Dark too much for that. Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile Troy becomes the Lead, he takes the White Gold and uses it to hammer out evil.

He breaks the Arch of Time and Foul wins. The End.

Particularly in the First Chronicles, Foul manipulates people to destroy themselves through their passions. The Giants kill themselves, Revelstone is nearly destroyed by Trell, Atrian kills herself summoning Troy, Elena kills herself by using the Power of Command, Troy decimates his army because he is so confident in the intelligence that he gathers and is determined to end the war...

And of course Kevin nuked the Land back to the Stone Age.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
Hile Troy becomes the Lead, he takes the White Gold and uses it to hammer out evil.

He breaks the Arch of Time and Foul wins. The End.

Particularly in the First Chronicles, Foul manipulates people to destroy themselves through their passions. The Giants kill themselves, Revelstone is nearly destroyed by Trell, Atrian kills herself summoning Troy, Elena kills herself by using the Power of Command, Troy decimates his army because he is so confident in the intelligence that he gathers and is determined to end the war...

And of course Kevin nuked the Land back to the Stone Age.


You can argue that everything everyone did in the Chronicles only advanced Foul's agenda. Every victory over Foul resulted in his gaining more strength and power.

The Ritual of Desecration wrought untold damage and misery, and lost the Land the mightiest defenders it would ever know ... and the Staff of Law.

But the survivors gained centuries of peace and beauty they never would have had otherwise.

Troy's army was slaughtered, but his desperate strategy took out the Giant-Raver and his portion of the Illearth Stone and gave the Lords time to master the secret of Kevin's Lore.

Mhoram chose to abandon Kevin's Lore because it threatened the Oath of Peace ... which ultimately led to the Clave and the Sunbane, but it also gave the Land another 2000 years of beauty and peace. ("For a score of centuries ...")

Covenant destroyed the Staff which ended Foul's control of the weather, but also weakened Law enough for Foul to survive his defeat at Foul's Creche and come back even stronger.

Covenant found something new for the Haruchai to serve-- something that would not fail them like imperfect men and women-- but the meaning he gave them was a road where they became the Masters of the Land and the people of the Land lost their autonomy.

Covenant and Foamfollower defeated and diminished Foul through laughter and wild magic ... but he endured and came back stronger. Covenant blocked his victory at the end of White Gold Wielder by submission, but Foul still manipulated the pieces on the board to almost destroy the Arch.

And honestly, the ending ... where Covenant took the Despiser into himself ... someone could easily write a sequel (either Donaldson himself or his estate once he passes) where Foul corrupts Covenant and wreaks havoc once more.

The only one who really comes out consistently ahead of Foul in the entire Chronicles is the Creator ... he tosses mortals into the fight to keep Foul in his jail so he can go on about his business...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaos Arcanna wrote:

The only one who really comes out consistently ahead of Foul in the entire Chronicles is the Creator ... he tosses mortals into the fight to keep Foul in his jail so he can go on about his business...


And if Old Man Wildwood is the Creator!
Then he too has had to suffer a never ending weight of Foul's insanity.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually think that if you started with Troy instead of Covenant, you could end up with very similar books in the end.

you can explore sons of the same themes SRD pursued using blindness instead of kdp rosy. The need of the hero to deny the reality of the Land because he doesn't dare let himself have hope, or dull the survival skills he's gad to learn, it would have some differences, but it's still common ground.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to expand on my thought...

Troy's blindness offers some of the same themes as Covenant's leprosy, both in their own everyday physical challenges, and in the ways that others react to them.

And Troy's job in the Pentagon offers room to comment on war and the military in a more direct way (something SRD, as a conscientious objector who had been at Kent State in the early 70's would have had a lot of thoughts on).

Instead of Joan leaving Covenant, maybe Troy's betrayal is the parent who never wanted him because of his blindness (shades of the issues SRD would delve into with Linden later on).

There might well still be a rape of Lena - seeing a woman for the first time would be every bit as powerful as Covenant having his feeling return. Or maybe just a young woman paying legitimate attention to Troy for the first time in his life might be enough.

Troy would come at things from the opposite perspective as Covenant, of course, with regard to power - he'd have to find the same center of the paradox, but coming at it from the other direction. Maybe instead of Bannor putting Covenant's hand on the Staff of Law to call the Fire Lions, Bannor has to force Troy back from tearing Mount Thunder down to the roots, to let the Fire Lions do the work. And maybe it's Troy's reckless use fo power that unearths the illearth Stone.

And maybe Troy, with his perspective of the military and strategies of nuclear war, initially considers the Ritual of Desecration a logical - even GOOD - choice by Kevin. A reasonable tradeoff, just as a limited nuclear war could be won (or at least that's what he's been telling himself for years).

And obviously there's the overall question of whether the Land is real or not, and Troy would have the exact same dilemma as Covenant - he can't believe it's real because that will weaken him in the "real" world and he'll lose the skills he's built up to survive in it.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's an interesting idea, starkllr. I agree that the paradox of power can be approached from other angles - because Mhoram does, as well as later Linden. But let me ask if you can round it out fully.

What would Troy's "ring" be?

And what is the counter-balance to Troy's desire for the power to save the Land, the thing which makes it an internal struggle?
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