Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Haruchai and The Bane Fire.
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
IrrationalSanity
Caamora Obscura


Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1298

Thanks: 1
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts

Location: Someplace birds sing
1017 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Leela V1.01 Member of Linden's Army1 Translation


PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
IrrationalSanity wrote:
Consider also, that once the Haruchai were given the understanding that allowed them to break the hold of the Merewives (by Linden, of all people), that also gave Cail the ability to resist the Banefire as well.
Whoa, I don't remember that at all. I remember Linden threatening to break Cail's arm, and that brought him out of the "spell" of the Merewives, or something. But I don't remember this giving him the power to resist the Banefire. If so--if the lessons of resisting Merewives provides insight into the Banefire--then these two examples (which we've all agreed are of different types) aren't of different types after all. Resisting "possession" or compulsion shouldn't be like resisting temptation. So does that mean the Banefire isn't a type of compulsion, but instead temptation? And its power over the Haruchai isn't one of sheer magnitude?
...


I don't have the books handy for the details, but yeah, generally Linden's threat brought them back to themselves.
Then, when the group got back to the Land, the Haruchai who were left behind fought with Cail and determined him "unworthy" because of his initially giving in to the Merewives.
Later, when they approached Revelstone, all of the Haruchai EXCEPT Cail again started to fall under the Banefire's sway, and he was able to free them. They then came to the conclusion that "such unworth as his" may indeed have its uses.
_________________
- Woody -
Linden Lover and proud of it...
But I love my wife more!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2844 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


I base that opinion on this passage:
In The One Tree was wrote:
"Ur-Lord." Brinn did not look away. He hardly blinked. Yet the unwonted implication of softness in his tone was unmistakable. "In the song of the merewives we heard the fire of our yearning for that which we have left behind. Assuredly we were deluded - but the delusion was sweet. Mountains sprang about us. The air became the keen breath which the peaks exhale from their snows. And upon the slopes moved the women who call to us in their longing for fire and seed and offspring." For a moment, he broke into the tonal tongue of the Haruchai; and that language seemed to transform his visage, giving him an aspect of poetry. "Therefore did we leap to answer, disregarding all service and safety. The limbs of our women are brown from sun and birth. But there is also a whiteness as acute as the ice which bleeds from the rock of mountains, and it burns as the purest snow burns in the most high tor, the most wind-flogged col. For that whiteness, we gave ourselves to the Dancers of the Sea."

That's lust, no? If not, well, that's what I was referring to when I said that the merewives were able to touch the Haruchai's desires.


Ah, lust yes. Then again not necessarily so!
The sweet delusion that is mentioned may well be lust but their reasons for diving into the sea, as I see it, are entirely something else.
I can imagine this is what the urge to swim with dolphins feels like; to breath the freshest air possible; the desire to feel more alive than ever before.
To dance in the sea isn't necessarily lust.

I haven't read The One Tree in years, but I seem to remember that the story contained charades, deceptive bends, and acts like you might see in a stage play.
The One Tree will be the next book I read.

Thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16419

Thanks: 35
Thanked 164 Times in 157 Posts


11469 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think lust is part of it, but Viz is right that there is more. "And upon the slopes moved the women who call to us in their longing for fire and seed and offspring." That is pretty lusty. Not merely procreation, but the fire (i.e. passion) of procreation.

I've always assumed the Merewives were a reference to the Sirens of Greek mythology. Granted, they were not purely objects of lust, but allure and seduction is part of their siren song, at least in some depictions. And "siren song" is now the epitome of a dangerous allure.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SoulBiter
The Gap Into Spam

Ranyhyn
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 4796

Thanks: 12
Thanked 35 Times in 34 Posts


11696 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Forbidding1 Giant Ship1 Giant


PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
IrrationalSanity wrote:
Consider also, that once the Haruchai were given the understanding that allowed them to break the hold of the Merewives (by Linden, of all people), that also gave Cail the ability to resist the Banefire as well.
Whoa, I don't remember that at all. I remember Linden threatening to break Cail's arm, and that brought him out of the "spell" of the Merewives, or something. But I don't remember this giving him the power to resist the Banefire.


I remember this. Cail learned to resist and beat the crap out of the other Haruchai which broke the Geas on them. Cail said
Quote:
"It is agreed that such unworth as mine has its uses. Whatever restitution you command we will undertake. But we will not again fall from ourselves in this way."

_________________
"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18272

Thanks: 11
Thanked 188 Times in 174 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
40821 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vizidor wrote:
Ah, lust yes. Then again not necessarily so!
The sweet delusion that is mentioned may well be lust but their reasons for diving into the sea, as I see it, are entirely something else.
I can imagine this is what the urge to swim with dolphins feels like; to breath the freshest air possible; the desire to feel more alive than ever before.
To dance in the sea isn't necessarily lust.

I agree, but I don't agree, precisely.

Brinn made it clear that he was "deluded": Mountains sprang about us. The air became the keen breath which the peaks exhale from their snows. And upon the slopes moved the women...

They Haruchai were not diving in the sea to live in the sea with merewives. They were diving in to go back to their mountain homes, and to be with the women who really made them yodel. They were in a delicious dream.

But, yes, they were seduced by a whole package. Not just women, but their old life, as perfect as a dream can make it.

This is why Cail wanted to return. To live in that dream. To get that whole package.

In White Gold Wielder was wrote:
"The song of the merewives has been named delusion. But is not all life a manner of dreaming? Have you not said that the Land itself is a dream? Dream or delusion, the music I have heard has altered me. But I have not learned the meaning of this change. Ur-Lord, I wish to prove what I have dreamed to its heart. Permit me."

But, despite all that, I see it was lust for their women that moved them. They would have seen that dreamscape, but remembered their promises to the ur-Lord, and let it go by -- if it wasn't for those women. Lust was the key that unlocked their unguarded response.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2844 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't help getting the feeling this somehow ties in with what happened between Covenant and Winhome Gay, when the quest for the Staff of Law visited Manhome - (in Lord Foul's Bane).

Covenant noticed, between the thighs of the young girl, the blood red coals in the campfire. And was reminded of Lena and rape.
In turn this lead to his leap of intuition that what the ur-viles had done to the Wraiths of Andelain was no different than what he had done to Lena. Both events being under the duress of Lord Foul.

Can the same thing be said of the Haruchai?
Was their service an unwitting tool of Corruption?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18272

Thanks: 11
Thanked 188 Times in 174 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
40821 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: The Haruchai and The Bane Fire. Reply with quote

peter wrote:
How do we explain this indifference in the light of their usual breast-beating over such failures.

Found this in the GI, which I think answers your question nicely.

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:
One way to look at this discrepancy is that when they fail and remain true to themselves, they accept the consequences, but when they fail and do NOT remain true to themselves (Korik, Sill, and Doar with the Illearth Stone v Ravers and Lord Foul; Brinn and Cail v merewives), they judge harshly.

(10/03/2007)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6223

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18858 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What exactly does 'remain true to themselves' mean here though - that they weren't coerced into performing acts of evil? (Good spot Wayfriend.)

Viz (in case you're still watching this thread) - TC's ravagement of Lena wasn't despiser induced was it? (Though he would have relished it.)
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2844 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
What exactly does 'remain true to themselves' mean here though - that they weren't coerced into performing acts of evil? (Good spot Wayfriend.)


I'm sure you're aware that the Bane Fire is a representation, an extension or externalization, of Thomas Covenant's knife wound.
And that the Haruchai are displaying emotional content in support of Thomas Covenant (who else?), something they're not capable of doing by conventional means.

Thomas Covenant is the story.
Anyone who can bear the brunt of their endeavours with a gaping wound in the chest has my attention.
Redeem my people, their plight is an abomination.
Did not Covenant put out the Bane Fire?

peter wrote:
Viz (in case you're still watching this thread) - TC's ravagement of Lena wasn't despiser induced was it? (Though he would have relished it.)


I believe Thomas Covenant deserves better.
Maybe it's time we start out-thinking Lord Foul instead of just nodding and agreeing with the blatantly obvious. After all, it wouldn't be much of a story if it were easily understood.
For example:
Didn't Peitten say, "They hate you!", when the Ranyhyn performed their Dance of the Staff of Law, outside Manhome?
Was it really the Ranyhyn Peitten was referring to? Or could there be something else not so obviously seen?
And what was it that Covenant saw in the coals of the fire, between the thighs of Winhome Gay? Did he see blood? Or did he see hurtloam?


Last edited by JIkj fjds j on Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6223

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18858 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vizidor wrote:
I'm sure you're aware that the Bane Fire is a representation, an extension or externalization, of Thomas Covenant's knife wound.


Embarassed I was never a 'deep' reader of the Chrons Viz - for me they were always just cracking stories and the deeper themes allegories etc have always had to be spelled out on these pages for me to 'get' them.

re Pietten, he was wrong though wasn't he [if refering to the great horses]; The Ranyhyn feared Covenant didn't they - they didn't hate him; so who could he have meant - the Ramen perhaps, the Lords, Giants and Bloodguard? No - I confess, your line of thinking here is too deep for me Laughing .
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2844 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Last edited by Vizidor on Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total


Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch