Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Race in America
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 22, 23, 24  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 4:43 pm    Post subject: Race in America Reply with quote

Time for a new thread on the subject. There's so much more to talk about than murder. No need to clutter up the other thread.

To kick things off, consider this double standard:

This woman was fired:

High school principal fired after racist outburst at 'all the black people' leaving Georgia graduation ceremony early


This woman was not:

Saida Grundy, Boston University professor: White males a ‘problem population’

The principle was trying to stop the students from leaving the graduation ceremony early. Apparently, lots of black students weren't listening to her. She found it to be disrespectful. She was describing their actions as it happened right in front of her, noting the disobedience of this real group of students.

On the other hand, the professor was making a theoretical, blanket statement about all white males being "the problem" on campus. Did she give examples to back it up? Did she point to anything real? Not that I can tell. It seems more like a worldview than a behavioral description ... which is problematic, given that this is her area of expertise (African American studies).

And yet one was fired, while the other was defended for her free speech rights. Both made racially charged statements, but (imo) only one was overtly racist by the actual definition of the word. The black professor was making an explicitly anti-white statement in general, while the white principle was describing the behavior of a few blacks who were disrespecting her personally. She made no explicit anti-black statement (though one could argue that it was implicit). [Note: I'm not defending the principle, I'm noting the discrepancy.]

So professors have unquestionable freedom of speech, but principles don't? I suspect something else is going on here ... it's okay to be a black racist, but not a white racist. In liberal enclaves of higher learning, hating on The White Man is just part of the curriculum.

The double standard is clear.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6492

Thanks: 17
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts

Location: Getting there...
7172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two different jobs, different criteria of behaviour.

Boston University was clear that it did not share the professor's opinions but she was allowed to have and express them.

I'm pretty sure the principal violated a code that she agreed to follow upon employment.

The actions are similar, but the jobs are different. If you want to prove some descrepency, you would have to find an example of, say, a black principal saying, "all you white students" or a white professor talking about the "black problem".

As far as public outcry, both were pretty much derided publicly... the professor more so then the principal, from my viewpoint. So, no issue there.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure, Orlion. I'm sure the principle never signed any document swearing to never notice when black people leave their own graduation early, or to never note when black people disobey her instructions. I guess for some jobs, you can't note facts in front of your own eyes if those facts happen to cast people in a bad light?

If there are two different standards for the two jobs, I suppose it does make the comparison a little weak in terms of firing, but why are there two different standards? That's just another discrepancy. We all have free speech. Why are professors protected more than others? This professor teaches African American studies. Just imagine learning about black history from a prof who thinks white men are THE problem, as she says. I don't think tenure was intended to protect indoctrinating students with racism.

In fact:

Quote:
“Professor Grundy should and must have the freedom to publicly express her opinions on controversial topics. Unfortunately, though, [she] could be punished if she were to send such tweets through the BU computer network, as the university bans ‘transmitting...offensive’ material,” Robert Shibley of Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) told FoxNews.com.


If the University wanted to do something, they could. They have no problem limiting the speech of students:

Quote:
“In addition, if she were a student, she could also potentially be punished for violating policies banning ‘bigotry, hatred, and intolerance,’ and for not expressing her opinion ‘in good taste and decency.’ … [BU] should eliminate these policies so that it can defend every student and faculty member's right to free speech – not just Professor Grundy's.”


I also agree with this:
Quote:

If she were a white racist rather than an anti-white racist, she would never be hired. Professors are supposed to be experts in some scholarly field, and professionals in their classroom discourse. They don't have a license to indoctrinate students in their prejudices - whether those prejudices are right or left,” he said.


link
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting article by Thomas Sowell (a black conservative, for those who have never heard of such a thing):

Thomas Sowell wrote:
Race riots and the bogus 'legacy of slavery'

AMONG THE many painful ironies in the current racial turmoil is that communities scattered across the country were disrupted by riots and looting because of the demonstrable lie that Michael Brown was shot in the back by a white policeman in Missouri — but there was not nearly as much turmoil created by the demonstrable fact that a fleeing black man was shot dead by a white policeman in South Carolina.

Totally ignored was the fact that a black policeman in Alabama fatally shot an unarmed white teenager, and was cleared of any charges, at about the same time that a white policeman was cleared of charges in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.

In a world where the truth means so little, and headstrong preconceptions seem to be all that matter, what hope is there for rational words or rational behavior, much less mutual understanding across racial lines?

When the recorded fatal shooting of a fleeing man in South Carolina brought instant condemnation by whites and blacks alike, and by the most conservative as well as the most liberal commentators, that moment of mutual understanding was very fleeting, as if mutual understanding were something to be avoided, as a threat to a vision of “us against them” that was more popular.

That vision is nowhere more clearly expressed than in attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a “legacy of slavery” in particular. Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.


The “legacy of slavery” argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.

Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.

You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots before the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965. We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact — for those who still have some respect for facts — black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, before 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less. Murder rates among black males were going down — repeat, DOWN — during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before. Most black children were raised in two-parent families before the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.

Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States
. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read “Life at the Bottom,” by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.

You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization — including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain — without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.

Nonjudgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state — and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.One key fact that keeps getting ignored is that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits every year since 1994. Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.


link
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10412

Thanks: 18
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
57596 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

Thomas Sowell wrote:
You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization — including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain — without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.


Allowing yourself to become a ward of the Government Welfare State is slavery, only it is slower, more insidious, and doesn't have the usual trappings such as having your name taken from you or being beaten for disrespect or disobedience. In fact, it is actually worse than overt slavery because welfare slavery is voluntary--they chose it and continue to choose it rather than getting out of it. The ones in the welfare system who vote typically vote for politicians who promise to continue or expand the subsidy programs, thus enabling their oppressors to oppress them with money.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cybrweez
The Gap Into Spam


Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 4801

Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts

Location: Jamesburg, NJ
5506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Losing battle there Z. You are so white privileged, you'll never be able to see the real problem - whitey. In fact, I bet you don't even believe whitey causes the problems in all the world. You're so deluded!

In general, white people have 2 things helping them to fight racism - white guilt, and a prevailing narrative in our society that white people must be very careful in dealing w/racial or ethnic issues.

Black, latinos, asians, or any other racial/ethnic group? Neither. In fact, I know of black families where it's assumed as fact that the white man is not to be trusted, and a major cause of black issues. This is passed down, talked about, taken as gospel. There is no backlash against it. If it comes from a white person, well their white privilege just blinds them. If they are black, they are paid off by the man, an Uncle Tom, or still "on the plantation".

Certainly, in particular, there is one party in the US very invested in keeping this narrative. And a whole bunch of people totally duped, even some on this board, into this narrative.
_________________
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Cybrweez
The Gap Into Spam


Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 4801

Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts

Location: Jamesburg, NJ
5506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whites prefer to live with whites. I guess that's not surprising. Would be similar for most races/ethnic groups. These types of studies are interesting, trying to break down such things. But just wish it was complete. Why just white and black? And of course, this author doesn't seem to care much about black preference, and mentions that other research shows Latinos are just like whites. What about Asians, Indians? I know Indian communities are some of the most isolated, at least here in NJ. I've mentioned b4, but I used to have a good friend working for me who was Indian, and we talked about how they all live together in neighborhoods (usually upper middle class, like he did). Is is racial or just class based?

I wonder how much other countries even think about this stuff, related to themselves. Probably too focused on how the US handles it tho.
_________________
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boston University prof in racist tweet flap accused of trolling white rape victim

She mocks the pain--the literal tears--of a rape victim, because the woman was white and "...her tears are meaningless displays of emotions because they don’t reflect at ALL an intention to understand the issue from the prospective (sic) of women of color or queer women.”

For some people, race is even more important than violent crimes like rape. As if being black is worse than being violently attacked and raped. [Battles for who's the bigger victim ... only on the Left. Whatever.]

And she manages to get a dig in about how much money she makes and how this conversation--which she's choosing to have in the comments section of an article--is "beneath her pay grade."

Sounds like the Requires Hate blogger. If you're not the 'right kind' of minority, you're to be attacked even when you're a victim. A literal victim. Of rape. Who was accused of playing a victim by this overpaid, racist hate-monger hired to teach African American studies [and who can't spell, btw, as she's lecturing people about her 'intellectual altruism' which is how she describes trolling white rape victims. I don't usually point out spelling errors--I think it's petty--but she's the one who makes her argument an argument-by-authority and argument-by-pay-grade, stressing her "Dr" status and intellectual superiority].
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche


Last edited by Zarathustra on Mon May 18, 2015 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6492

Thanks: 17
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts

Location: Getting there...
7172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesucristo.... you get to a certain point with your beliefs before you fall into some sort of mania and the prof has crossed it and dived into it.

If I get shot, my feelings on the matter are not irrelevant because I am not relating myself to a Turk dying in a trench during World War I. Neither I, nor Turks, nor Blacks, nor soldiers, nor gangsters etc. can claim being shot is even a mostly unique cultural perspective. Same thing with rape... hell, it'd be great if rape was just the side-effect of racial-discrimination against minorities... it'd be a whole lot simpler and easier to combat!

In either event, this does fly into the face of the idea of "understanding that we are all part of humanity with shared experiences". People have all ready been trying to distance themselves from this maniac's mad ramblings... hopefully this trend will continue. Frankly, if she gets associated with Democrats, the Democrats ought to pressure the University to fire her or something.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae


Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 17654

Thanks: 94
Thanked 88 Times in 84 Posts


6759 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Foul Duck1 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't read it all right now. There is most definitely a double standard at work in America. Several of them, in fact, and more than one in regards to racial issues.

However, I'd need to see video before taking the Principle's side. Were ALL the black students leaving? Were ONLY black students leaving? Both would have to be true for it to NOT be a racist statement.
_________________
We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. -SRD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
ussusimiel
Ghurning

Male
Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 5346

Thanks: 69
Thanked 66 Times in 63 Posts

Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
7686 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered1 Member of THOOLAH1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This woman seems fairly off the rails alright and her views certainly don't reflect those of someone on the Left, like me.

I think the discussion (or more accurately, the lack of proper discussion) about the issue of race reflects a general problem in relation to political discourse in the US. It seems to me, that the constant 'cultural' conflict that characterises debate leaves no room for actual discussion. Every issue becomes a locus for an attack on or a defence of 'identity', rather than a debate about the substance of the issue. Every attempt at discourse quickly descends into ideological posturing that leaves no common ground, which is absolutely essential for constructive debate.

The Democrats may seem the most obviously hypocritical in this regard, and it is fairly clear that the Republicans (under pressure from the Tea Party) have their share of responsibility for the current almost complete political polarisation in the US.

For real discourse to begin again, IMO, a complete reset will have to take place. There will have to be a recognition, on both sides, that the common ground has been lost, and that efforts need to be made to re-establish it. However, so long as one side (it doesn't matter which) insists that their ideology is the only one and no compromise is possible, then the current discursive deadlock will continue.

(I'm going to do a Hashi on it and make a suggestion that I know no politician will listen too Laughing)

Here's what I would suggest in relation to race: the Right claims that race is no longer an issue due to institutional change; the Left claims (for whatever reasons, some possibly structural and institutional) that race is obviously still an issue to the people who vote for them. How about the two sides move towards each other by each taking one step. For the time being the Right drops its claim that race is not an issue; for the time being the Left drops its claim that the issue of race is structural/institutional. Now both sides can feel that the other has given some ground, and now there is some common ground to work with. Maybe under these circumstances the issue can actually be looked at clearly, without people feeling that they need to protect their ideological purity. And maybe, under these circumstances more effective policies can be developed and implemented.

u.
_________________
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cybrweez
The Gap Into Spam


Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 4801

Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts

Location: Jamesburg, NJ
5506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still has to be seen whether it really was Grundy who made the comments. Hard to believe she's that dumb, after already stirring the pot. But then, you can see her previous apology, not that she thinks white men are the problem population, but just that she didn't put it delicately enough. It is probable her racism makes her that stupid.

And of course, it is obvious, and I'd like to see who disagrees, that if she weren't black, she would be fired for her previous comments.
_________________
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyb, I believe the latest Grundy crap (see above) actually happened prior to the one that thrust her into the spotlight. It was only recently discovered.

ussusimiel wrote:
Every attempt at discourse quickly descends into ideological posturing that leaves no common ground, which is absolutely essential for constructive debate.
Hmm ... I'm noticing a pattern here (see our discussion on Islam). I think you're wrong about what constitutes "constructive." It's not compromise. It's not common ground. It's error correction. Unless we admit when we're wrong, there will NEVER be any progress.

ussusimiel wrote:

The Democrats may seem the most obviously hypocritical in this regard, and it is fairly clear that the Republicans (under pressure from the Tea Party) have their share of responsibility for the current almost complete political polarisation in the US.


Polarization isn't the problem. One side is right, one side is wrong. If both take a step to the middle, what does this accomplish except to water down the truth? Where do you get these ideas that polarization is a problem and compromise is a solution? What assumptions drive that position? Imagine if we conducted science like this. There's evolution. And there's spontaneous generation. Both are diametrically opposed to the other. Should both take step to the middle? Just for the sake of getting along? Or should we actually try to figure out which one is right?

It's almost like you don't care what the truth is, as long as everyone gets along and respects each other. Or even worse: the idea that there is no truth, only strong passions. And everyone's feelings are 'valid' from their own perspective. But if that's the case, why ever debate anything??

The purpose of the debate is find the truth.

ussusimiel wrote:
For real discourse to begin again, IMO, a complete reset will have to take place. There will have to be a recognition, on both sides, that the common ground has been lost, and that efforts need to be made to re-establish it. However, so long as one side (it doesn't matter which) insists that their ideology is the only one and no compromise is possible, then the current discursive deadlock will continue.
No, that's where facts come in. We already have all the common ground we need to examine facts: we live in reality, not fantasy land.

Fact: the majority of black children used to be raised by two parents, prior to the War on Poverty.

Fact
: after the WoP, black illegitimacy rates have skyrocketed to 72%!!! The highest of any demographic group in America. White racism doesn't make you have children out of wedlock or abandon your kids.

Fact
: today, poverty rates for blacks raised in two-parent homes are in the single digits. When you correct for illegitimacy, dropping out of school, and crime, racial differences in poverty disappear.

Conclusion: poverty is caused by social factors/choices which are exacerbated when we subsidize those very behaviors, which is what the War on Poverty has done.

Quote:

In mid-1960s America, the nation's out-of-wedlock birth rate (which stood at 7.7 percent at the time) began a rapid and relentless climb across all demographic lines, a climb that would continue unabated until 1994, when the Welfare Reform Act put the brakes on that trend. Today the overall American illegitimacy rate is about 33 percent (26 percent for whites). For blacks, it hovers at near 70 percent—approximately three times the level of black illegitimacy that existed when the War on Poverty began in 1964.


Illegitimacy is an important issue because it has a great influence on all statistical indicators of a population group’s progress or decline. In 1987, for the first time in the history of any American racial or ethnic group, the birth rate for unmarried black women surpassed that for married black women, and that trend continued uninterrupted until the passage of welfare reform. The black out-of-wedlock birth rates in some inner cities now exceed 80 percent, and most of those mothers are teens. Because unmarried teenage mothers—whatever their race—typically have no steady employment, nearly 80 percent of them apply for welfare benefits within five years after giving birth to their first child. No group can withstand such a wholesale collapse of its family structure without experiencing devastating social consequences.

Father-absent families—black and white alike—generally occupy the bottom rung of our society’s economic ladder. Unwed mothers, regardless of their race, are four times more likely to live in poverty than the average American. Female-headed black families earn only 36 percent as much as two-parent black families, and female-headed white families earn just 46 percent as much as two-parent white families. Not only do unmarried mothers tend to earn relatively little, but their households are obviously limited to a single breadwinner—thus further widening the income gap between one-parent and two-parent families. Fully 85 percent of all black children in poverty live in single-parent, mother-child homes.


85% of poor blacks are being raised by unwed mothers! My god. It's no mystery why they are poor. It's freakin' axiomatic that getting knocked up as a teenager, getting on welfare, and then having even more children, is a surefire path to poverty. We KNOW this. And yet our policies make it as easy as possible to keep doing it (more so prior to welfare reform).

But Dems don't see a problem here (except for the boogieman of white racism). They just want to spend more money. They won't even acknowledge the point about illegitimacy and its ruinous effects on one's chances to get ahead, even though it's obvious how it hampers economic development. To do so would be 'judgmental.' Or even worse: admitting that they were wrong. It's so much easier to blame everything on a Villain. They can't very well scold themselves or their own voters, right? A Villain becomes a necessary component of the denial. Without that crucial Bad Actor, they would have no other choice but to look at themselves.

That must be avoided at all costs!

Quote:

While the overall black poverty rate remains about two-and-a-half times higher than the white poverty rate (24 percent vs. 10 percent), the “face” of black poverty has changed dramatically in recent decades. At one time, almost all black families were poor, regardless of whether one or both parents were present. Today, however, two-parent black families are rarely poor. Among black families where both the husband and wife work full-time, the current poverty rate is a mere 2 percent. Moreover, the relatively small (13 percent) income disparity between black and white two-parent families completely disappears when we take into account such factors as occupational choices, educational attainment, age, geographic location, and comparative skills.


As I've pointed out: the alleged 'racism gap' disappears when you use things like evidence instead of emotion. We don't need steps toward the middle. We need steps toward reality.

Quote:

Children in single-parent households are raised not only with economic, but also social and psychological, disadvantages. For instance, they are four times as likely as children from intact families to be abused or neglected; much likelier to have trouble academically; twice as prone to drop out of school; three times more likely to have behavioral problems; much more apt to experience emotional disorders; far likelier to have a weak sense right and wrong; significantly less able to delay gratification and to control their violent or sexual impulses; two-and-a-half times likelier to be sexually active as teens; approximately twice as likely to conceive children out-of-wedlock when they are teens or young adults; and three times likelier to be on welfare when they reach adulthood.

In addition, growing up without a father is a far better forecaster of a boy’s future criminality than either race or poverty. Regardless of race, 70 percent of all young people in state reform institutions were raised in fatherless homes, as were 60 percent of rapists, 72 percent of adolescent murderers, and 70 percent of long-term prison inmates. As Heritage Foundation scholar Robert Rector has noted, “Illegitimacy is a major factor in America's crime problem. Lack of married parents, rather than race or poverty, is the principal factor in the crime rate.”

Since the black illegitimacy rate is so high, these pathologies plague blacks more than they affect any other demographic. “Even if white people were to become morally rejuvenated tomorrow,” writes black economist and professor Walter E. Williams, “it would do nothing for the problems plaguing a large segment of the black community. Illegitimacy, family breakdown, crime, and fraudulent education are devastating problems, but they are not civil rights problems.”



The Democratic Party has destroyed the black community. The very people blacks overwhelmingly vote for are the very people who have destroyed them. No wonder Dems don't want to talk about the facts. It doesn't matter how many steps toward the middle--away from the truth--Reps take. Until Dems come to grip with the reality that they've destroyed entire generations of the people who depend on them, NO PROGRESS WILL BE MADE.

This is a goddamn tragedy. And it's the goddamn Democrats' fault.

[url=http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1261[/url]
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche


Last edited by Zarathustra on Tue May 19, 2015 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10412

Thanks: 18
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
57596 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

The Democratic Party has destroyed the black community. The very people blacks overwhelmingly vote for are the very people who have destroyed them. No wonder Dems don't want to talk about the facts. It doesn't matter how many steps toward the middle--away from the truth--Reps take. Until Dems come to grip with the reality that they've destroyed entire generations of the people who depend on them, NO PROGRESS WILL BE MADE.


The Sun will nova before this happens. The War on Poverty was begun with Good Intentions (tm) but there is an old adage about where the road paved with good intentions leads. Recall that when all this War on Poverty stuff began that Johnson was having to fight with his own Party because a lot of them were also against the Civil Rights Act. I don't think the Democrat Party intentionally set out to destroy the black community but any time you set up a system under which the government will pay you for doing nothing then people are going to start gaming the system, which is exactly what has happened in many cases.

I don't necessarily blame anyone for wanting to live on government handouts--free money is a good thing from the recipient's point of view--but what they don't realize is that they are choosing to live a life of what will most likely be poverty or near-poverty. It is both irrational and illogical to willingly choose to live at the lowest common denominator, especially when that choice is to live at the behest and magnanimity of the government. People who choose the subsistence lifestyle or are farmers are different because they are still working for a living.

It isn't just the recipients who are gaming the system, either. There are politicians who tell their voters things like "if you vote for the other guy he will cut you off--you won't receive any more money and then you'll be out on the street and both you and your family might starve". No, they don't use those words exactly but the message is the same. We may distill it down to its essence, which is "vote for us or you will die". That is power. That is subjugation. That is control.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right Hashi. I don't expect it to change. Even if Democratic politicians acknowledge the truth to themselves, they have too much invested in the victimization meme. That's how they win elections. So they can't fix this problem even if they wanted to, because it would threaten their power. So what we've got here is a feedback loop. They must keep blacks voting for them, avoid letting blacks learn the truth at all costs. That's pretty easy to do when you control the media and the schools, and when you're telling them something they want to hear, something that absolves them of responsibility/culpability and blames it on a hated 'rival.' When you combine this with buying their votes with our tax dollars--getting their 'reparations' in the form of wealth redistribution--you've got a Democratic death grip on this demographic.

That's why it's up to people like us to get the word out. The only hope for black Americans is for them to learn the truth from us, and break out of the cycle themselves. I try to facilitate this process by quoting black conservatives (Walter Williams was quoted above, as well as Sowell prior to that).

What's really sad is that the First Black President could have made a difference--instead of making it worse. He could have done so much to dispel the myth of victimization. I mean, he made it all the way to the top. His life is an example that the victimization myth is a lie. It doesn't hold you down. You can rise to the very seat of power in the world's most powerful government. From that position, he could have said to Black America: "Look at me! Emulate my choices! Stay in school! Study hard! Stay married! Take care of your kids! Don't become a criminal!" He could have been the ultimate black role model. Instead, he took the Sharpton road and fed the myth ... because the myth feeds his party.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10412

Thanks: 18
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
57596 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

What's really sad is that the First Black President could have made a difference--instead of making it worse. He could have done so much to dispel the myth of victimization. I mean, he made it all the way to the top. His life is an example that the victimization myth is a lie. It doesn't hold you down. You can rise to the very seat of power in the world's most powerful government. From that position, he could have said to Black America: "Look at me! Emulate my choices! Stay in school! Study hard! Stay married! Take care of your kids! Don't become a criminal!" He could have been the ultimate black role model. Instead, he took the Sharpton road and fed the myth ... because the myth feeds his party.


Don't forget that he was from a broken background, himself--didn't his parents gets divorced? (I just checked--they did, in 1964.) Divorce was still a significant social stigma in the early-to-mid 1960s, enough so that it would get you ostracized from some social circles. Of course, the divorce would have been less a stigma in those days than the interracial marriage itself, but times were different back then. In spite of that, he still managed to to make it all the way to the Oval Office.

Mr. Obama didn't set race relations backwards, in my opinion, but he didn't do anything to advance them towards Dr. King's ultimate goal, either.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ussusimiel
Ghurning

Male
Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 5346

Thanks: 69
Thanked 66 Times in 63 Posts

Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
7686 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered1 Member of THOOLAH1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
...No, that's where facts come in...

I won't address all the points you raise in your post, Z. However, some of the 'facts' as you state them make assumptions about the statistics you quote. While I don't necessarily disagree with all of them, I do question some of the assumptions behind them. And since we are talking about race, I just want to ask one question:

    - why is it the black community that has such striking illigitimacy rates?

And this is where, I believe, that the common ground I want to create lies. I believe that the reasons for the breakdown in black communities lies in historical factors. Poor blacks from the South migrated North after WWII to escape poverty, segregation and discrimination. Unfortunately, the economic circumstances changed around that time leaving many of these people without work (we've discussed some of this in the Detroit thread). I believe that the mass migration of rural blacks to urban settings caused a breakdown in the social fabric of the black community. (And they also had to deal with poverty, discrimination and segregation in the North.)

That is the context in which I see welfare coming into operation. For me, for there to be a 'constructive' discussion the historical context needs to be acknowledged and recognised as still important today.

I can agree that blanket welfare is not a solution. I can agree that there has been a failure of black leadership. I can accept that some of the blame lies at the hands of Democrat politicians playing to and expanding their base.

However, what I will not agree to is the ideological assumption that it is all down to personal responsibility and that history and context play no part in the the formation of the problem, or in the contemporary situation. I will also not agree to the idea that welfare is the root cause of the problem. (We have had full social welfare in Europe for equally as long without this catastrophic breakdown in communities.)

The purpose of my post was to suggest a way out of the current impasse in the US. My belief is that the single route that you propose (even if your 'facts' are correct) is not based in the political 'reality' of the contemporary situation. If you are correct and there is a feedback loop between the Democrats and their base, then that feedback loop needs to be broken. Telling people that they are 'wrong', IMO, will achieve nothing. In fact, it will be interpreted as an attack on people's identity by a privileged group (Republicans), and actually most likely strengthen the feedback loop.

u.

P.S. And, of course I disagree that discourse is based on 'error correction'. I am a Lefty after all! Laughing

Quote:
From these bases, Habermas develops his concept of communicative action: communicative action serves to transmit and renew cultural knowledge, in a process of achieving mutual understandings. It then coordinates action towards social integration and solidarity. Finally, communicative action is the process through which people form their identities. [link]
[My emphasis.]
_________________
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16617

Thanks: 35
Thanked 168 Times in 161 Posts


13289 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
- why is it the black community that has such striking illigitimacy rates?
Ultimately it's personal choice. But it is curious that one demographic group chooses this more than others.

I think it's because more than any other group in America, we've taught black people that they are victims. This starts as children. Children typically don't take responsibility, look for excuses. No child in America has more excuses than black children being taught that America is a racist, culpable country.

So then these children (teens) start to have children. And that's where welfare kicks in.

ussusimiel wrote:
And this is where, I believe, that the common ground I want to create lies. I believe that the reasons for the breakdown in black communities lies in historical factors.
Historical factors do not reach out into the future to make you have children out of wedlock or abandon your kids.

ussusimiel wrote:
I believe that the mass migration of rural blacks to urban settings caused a breakdown in the social fabric of the black community.]
America is a country built on mass migrations. Once the cities were built, this is usually where they went. Mass migrations to cities don't inherently cause people to abandon their children or breakdown families. Please explain your mechanism.

ussusimiel wrote:
That is the context in which I see welfare coming into operation. For me, for there to be a 'constructive' discussion the historical context needs to be acknowledged and recognised as still important today.
Historical factors are only important today as a way to learn from the past. The past doesn't control the present, especially personal choices. It is the institutions/programs/policies of today which encourage current choices.

ussusimiel wrote:
However, what I will not agree to is the ideological assumption that it is all down to personal responsibility and that history and context play no part in the the formation of the problem, or in the contemporary situation.
Sure, history plays a part in the problem. But how can history play any part of the solution? It's already illegal to discriminate. How much more can government do about alleged racism? If history has any role in the solution, it can't come from the government. Clinging to grievances of 160 years ago doesn't seem like a productive way to solve anything.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thanked by: DoctorGamgee
Cybrweez
The Gap Into Spam


Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 4801

Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts

Location: Jamesburg, NJ
5506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z left out some good quotes from that last link.

Quote:
Since the black illegitimacy rate is so high, these pathologies plague blacks more than they affect any other demographic. “Even if white people were to become morally rejuvenated tomorrow,” writes black economist and professor Walter E. Williams, “it would do nothing for the problems plaguing a large segment of the black community. Illegitimacy, family breakdown, crime, and fraudulent education are devastating problems, but they are not civil rights problems.”

The civil-rights establishment, however, paints a very different picture, characterizing such problems as nothing more than by-products of white racism. That view, through decades of constant repetition, has won the minds of many black Americans. “Instead of admitting that racism has declined,” observes Shelby Steele, “we [blacks] argue all the harder that it is still alive and more insidious than ever. We hold race up to shield us from what we do not want to see in ourselves.”
u., it seems you argue the same thing. Black people being filthy rich, attaining any position in the country, and, when apples to apples, in the same boat as whites, all means nothing. You're still convinced the real problem w/the large poor black community is white racism.

Quote:
It bears mention that the astronomical illegitimacy rate among African Americans is a relatively recent phenomenon. As late as 1950, black women nationwide were more likely to be married than white women, and only 9 percent of black families with children were headed by a single parent. In the 1950s, black children had a 52 percent chance of living with both their biological parents until age seventeen; by the 1980s those odds had dwindled to a mere 6 percent. In 1959, only 2 percent of black children were reared in households in which the mother never married; today that figure approaches 60 percent.
Again, before this time frame, white racism was legal, particularly in the south. So, as society and the govt started to do away with that stupidity, the black family got worse.

u., you asked why this one demographic? Also from Z's link:

Quote:
The destruction of this stable black family was set in motion by the policies and teachings of the left, which for decades have encouraged blacks to view themselves as outcasts from a hostile American society; to identify themselves as perpetual victims who are entitled to compensatory privileges designed to “level the playing field” in a land where discrimination would otherwise run rampant; and to reject “white” norms and traditions as part and parcel of the “racist” culture that allegedly despises blacks. It is not inconceivable that one of those traditions which many blacks have chosen to abjure is the institution of marriage.
Other groups have come here and been treated miserably (Chinese, Irish, Germans, Mexicans). None have devised such a powerful narrative that their problems are due to white people. The Duke professor who recently said that black people take unique names in order to separate themselves, while Asians come here and take simple, American names in order to fit in, was blasted as being racist. Even observing differences b/w races is itself racist, if you're white anyway. This is a powerful narrative.

And the left is also, IMO, a little uncomfortable with all this talk about families and the importance of fathers, and statistics regarding stability coming from married parents. B/c that can be seen as an attack against homosexual claims. I'm sure in the 50s, when divorce was hard to come by, and there was shame for those who went through it, the argument was that such shaming was wrong, bigoted, and there is no proof that easy divorce and lack of 2 parents was harmful to anyone, it's just 2 consenting adults.
_________________
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Vraith
LibTard, Mr. Reliable.


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 9748

Thanks: 17
Thanked 85 Times in 83 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
34651 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few things that might be worth noting:
Teen birth rate started declining almost 25 years ago [at almost exactly the
same time the murder rates started dropping...wouldn't it be interesting if the two were somehow connected? I don't know how you'd find out how and prove it, though] nationwide, it's down almost 60%...even in the worst states, it's down over 50%.
Yes, it's higher for black than white.
It's also higher in rural areas than cities [by about 30%]
It's also higher in the "red" and "abstinence-only" sex-ed states.
But the drop surely means that SOMETHING is being done right somewhere.
That and other tidbits here, look around, enjoy:

http://thenationalcampaign.org/

I'm pretty sure, though black single-mother numbers are bleak, it's around 60%, not 85, but why quibble?
It's also almost 40% for single white mothers.

And I'd be willing to bet that the fact of the massive surge in incarceration and something around 50% increase in length of sentence---much of it due to the "War on Drugs"---have a major role in the shattering of the family structure of black Americans.

To answer F&F's question...no, it was not only black students/family leaving, no it wasn't anything close to all of them.

And going all the way back to the O P: there is a difference in standards. It might be worthwhile project to trace the reasons/history/evolution.
But as it stands now, higher ed. faculty, at most institutions, are among the few professions that are expected to have opinions and speak them in public places.
While primary & secondary ed. employees are among the professions where a slip of the tongue--let alone a controversial sentence spoken intentionally--can destroy your career. [[of course which kinds of slips, and what is controversial, are highly dependent on location.]]
In an interesting twist, higher ed. admin. have to be more careful than the prof., while H.S. admin. can be less careful.
Still not safe to just speak your mind, whatever ones right to do so.

_________________
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
-------------------------------------------------------
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 22, 23, 24  Next
Page 1 of 24

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch