Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

What if Covenant had drunk the Blood?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
pasdaddy
Servant of the Land


Joined: 19 May 2015
Posts: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


50 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:12 am    Post subject: What if Covenant had drunk the Blood? Reply with quote

After Elena had consumed the Blood, broken the Law of Death by summoning Kevin and then battling him - could Covenant have taken a sip, ordered Kevin back to the grave and thus prevent the events of the next four books?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wosbald
Bloodguard

Male
Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Posts: 953

Thanks: 13
Thanked 22 Times in 22 Posts


3047 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+
pasdaddy wrote:
What if Covenant had drunk the Blood?

Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
_________________



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thanked by: Rigel
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you view the Blood of the Earth in context with the world Covenant had left behind him - the nightclub, Susie Thurston, the one-armed Trucker, the unnamed man at their table, and of course, Sheriff Lytton ...

There is also the probability that nothing would've happened had Covenant drank the Earthblood. Although never truly unaffected by the Land's influence, it's magic, it's health, it's people, Thomas Covenant was still the Unbeliever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DrPaul
Giantfriend


Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 434

Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts


2363 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: What if Covenant had drunk the Blood? Reply with quote

pasdaddy wrote:
After Elena had consumed the Blood, broken the Law of Death by summoning Kevin and then battling him - could Covenant have taken a sip, ordered Kevin back to the grave and thus prevent the events of the next four books?


I think that once the Law of Death had been broken, simply ordering Kevin back to the grave would have been moot.

Could the consequences of breaking the Law of Death (including the destruction of the Staff of Law) have been prevented had Covenant sipped the Earthblood and issued a command to restore the Law of Death? Only if we assume:

(a) that such a use of the Power of Command was possible (it perhaps wasn't);

(b) that Covenant would have known what kind of command to give (he almost certainly didn't); and

(c) that such a command wouldn't have had other unintended consequences that were potentially worse than what actually happened (odds are it would have done).


Last edited by DrPaul on Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a similar topic about Hile Troy being the lead character in the Illearth War, I imagined what he might have done had he been given the chance to exercise his "power of command", (with respect to the Heamatite).
I would have suggested that Troy could have liquefied Lord Foul's army, but this would have been just another form of Desecration. If you can imagine all that dark force soaked into the earth of the Land.
No, Wildwood took care of all that evil much more cleanly and efficiently.

Covenant, however, would have to have been held down and the Blood of the Earth forced into him. He recognized the "Danger of Dreams" and would never have dared to partake.

Covenant was the leper rapist. If you understand anything about his dilemma then you'll see that he never needed to drink any raw magic to invoke the Power of Command.
And why should he! No one paid any attention to what he had to say.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18463

Thanks: 11
Thanked 198 Times in 181 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41579 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vizidor wrote:
Covenant, however, would have to have been held down and the Blood of the Earth forced into him. He recognized the "Danger of Dreams" and would never have dared to partake.

That's the essential reason why this 'what if' is impossible to consider. Covenant would never, never, never, ever have drank the Earthblood. He was scared of power to the core of his being, and he believed his Dream was seducing him to it. And he would not have tried to save the Land because, at that time, he didn't care.

IMO, if anything, he would have Commanded the Land to release him of responsibility, or to give it to another. Which would have destroyed him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pasdaddy
Servant of the Land


Joined: 19 May 2015
Posts: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


50 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting points. Covenant did spend the bulk of the First Chronicles trying to deny he had any power or responsibility over what was happening. Drinking the Blood would certainly not have been in character. I was just pondering the ramifications - a what if kind of mental exercise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.


Wosbald's idea reminds me of Star Trek: TMP. Where Decker and Ilia join together at the film's climax, possibly creating an alternate universe - Q continuum?

Covenant and Elena could never have did anything similar, for obvious reasons. But Troy and Elena ... ?

Which leaves me to wonder what the Blood of the Earth might've tasted like. Undistilled treasure berries, perhaps?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Akasri
Haruchai


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 736

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts


1643 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see it now... TC takes a drink and it burns his throat so much he exclaims "Hellfire!"

And the world is consumed by flames...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
DrPaul
Giantfriend


Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 434

Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts


2363 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, to say the same thing another way, he exclaims "Hellfire!" and bloody damnation ensues.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pasdaddy wrote:
Interesting points. Covenant did spend the bulk of the First Chronicles trying to deny he had any power or responsibility over what was happening. Drinking the Blood would certainly not have been in character. I was just pondering the ramifications - a what if kind of mental exercise.


OK!
So Covenant drinks the blood and has a profound revelation.
Instead of turning this golden opportunity as did High Lord Elena, on ideas of destroying Lord Foul and his army, rather he looks back to where it all started - the activation of the Krill.

Only this time instead of a blinding light shining from the heart of the mysterious gem, Thomas Covenant sees a galaxy of stars.
In fact he's seeing the Horsehead Nebula.
This he now realizes as his focus is tempered by the soothing touch of Elena's cool fingers on his troubled brow.

Just North of the Nebula is the multiple star, Alnitak.
- Where it doesn't take a great leap of insight to spot Amok, messenger and guide to the Seventh Ward of High Lord Kevin Landwaster.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18463

Thanks: 11
Thanked 198 Times in 181 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41579 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may not always know how to respond, V, but I do enjoy your posts. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bikebryan
Woodhelvennin


Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 68

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


261 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Face it: Covenant would NEVER have drank the Earthblood. At that point he was still unconvinced of the Land's reality, and to drink the blood would be him admitting that the world he was in was real. That was never going to happen at that point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6492

Thanks: 17
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts

Location: Getting there...
7172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Covenant, in another misguided attempt to "test" the reality of the Land like he did when he grew his beard, drinks the Earthblood and Commands himself to wake up!
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18463

Thanks: 11
Thanked 198 Times in 181 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41579 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
Covenant, in another misguided attempt to "test" the reality of the Land like he did when he grew his beard, drinks the Earthblood and Commands himself to wake up!

The Power "holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation."

But I was thinking along the same lines above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if the Earthblood was simply pure drinking water? It's redness and blood-like quality just an illusion caused by the reflection of something else within the cave?

I once gave someone a small quantity of lichen wrapped in tin foil, saying it was homegrown cannabis. I watched the person unwrap it, roll it, and smoke it. How funny I thought to see his eyes light up then turn dull and dopey, just as if he really had toked on a spliff. (We were young punks back then.)
My point being, if someone really believes there is a potency within a given substance would it not then follow the same pattern?
Elena was carrying the Staff of Law!

Hypothetically: Mohram might easily have said to Elena, "You are the Land".

____________________________________________


Last edited by JIkj fjds j on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:00 am; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bikebryan
Woodhelvennin


Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 68

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


261 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last Chronicles Spoiler
Spoiler:
I doubt the Worm would journey all the way to the Land for a drink of pure water.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SoulBiter
The Gap Into Spam

Ranyhyn
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 4877

Thanks: 14
Thanked 36 Times in 35 Posts


12180 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Forbidding1 Giant Ship1 Giant


PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it would have been out of character for TC to drink the Earthblood.

First, he had sworn not to kill again just recently.
Second he was looking for a way to make anyone but him responsible.
Third, by then he knew the danger of power. Matter of fact he warned Elena.

But if he was to drink it, what could he have wished for that was within the power of the Earthblood? I cant think of a thing that didnt have the risk of concequences that might have been worse than not doing anything.

Mhoram might have been the only one who could have figured out something...but only prior to the Illearth war. He was Seer and Oracle but when he discovered the secret to the limitation they had with the Wards he lost some of these abilities.
_________________
"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2865 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas Covenant, the way I see him, isn't exactly the anti-hero more so the anti-fantasist. Under those conditions he is the only character in the entire Chronicles to have both feet firmly fixed to the ground.

This for me is the real genius of Stephen Donaldson. To keep a constant grip on the contradiction and the paradox that is Thomas Covenant.

SoulBiter wrote:
But if he was to drink it, what could he have wished for that was within the power of the Earthblood? I cant think of a thing that didnt have the risk of concequences that might have been worse than not doing anything.


He could never have drank the Earthblood simply because of what happened in the nightclub at the beginning of the story - the music stops, the house lights are switched on, and the spell is broken.

Spoiler:
Too sobering to bear for any dedicated fantasy fan.Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch