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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 6:00 am    Post subject: Nyle Reply with quote

After the success of "Norge"-thread I thought I would air my doubts about another character, that being Nyle, Geraden'a brother who got tangled in Elega's plotting with Prince Kragen and later used and tortured by Eremis's circle.

I don't consider him a weak or unbelievable character but the happy ending he got at the end of the duology seemed a bit forced to me. Would the Alend ruler and his people really embrace him as the heir for being a tool in other people's machinations throughout the story? The reasoning given (Nyle won't be reckless like Kragen but catious and even-tempered) didn't sound all that logical to me. What's to prevent someone from using him again? Maybe we can see that's not likely but surely the Alends would view him thusly? Maybe his connections in the victorious Mordant and with the new rulers of Cadwal is enough to make him attractive. Being weak-willed and easily led might also paint him out as a perfect useful figurehead to the various Alend factions. So that would make his happy ending not really happy and I don't think that was how Donaldson intended his ending to be read.

On a different note, was King Joyce's apology enough? Could Nyle embrace him after everything that's happened? Isn't it a little too little too late for him? Joyce make it a public spectacle as well. I don't know. I don't think Nyle would forget all his grievances just like that but maybe Joyce is charming and charismatic enough to pull it of.

What do you think?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I suppose we could argue that he's learned a lesson in being used, and so would be protected from it in the future?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have any thoughts on Nyle as it's been way too many years since reading, The Mirror of Her Dreams.

Oddly enough, a while ago I had worked with a meditational (2yr course) book that encouraged imaginative exploration (some of which was sourced from Eric Berne's bestseller, The Games People Play). The idea being that one imagines walking into and through the back of a wardrobe, and down a spiral staircase to "Inner Rooms". After visiting these inner rooms on a regular basis a change might occur in the psyche, as explorative activity percolates up into daily consciousness.
I stopped smoking as a result. A beneficial side affect to a cure for a long term of mental disorder.
I digress.

The meditational course work I'd used happened to be based on the Egyptian pantheon. Though any would do. It's interesting to note that the name Nyle, parallels this strangely, and now has me absolutely fascinated. I really must make the time to read Mordan't Need again, and find out what happened in part II: A Man Rides Through - which I hadn't finished.

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edit: A local bookshop had, A Man Rides Through. But no, Mirror of her Dreams.
Which meant I could afford to buy two thin Pelican's as well. A good day's shop.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You pose some interesting questions about Nyle, Shadowbinding Shoe, that's for sure!
Right now, I'm doing a re-read of the Mordant's Need books (to then be followed by my first re-read of the Gap Cycle), and I haven't come to the part of TMOHD where Nyle first appears. When I've gotten to read up more about him, I promise I'll come back to this thread!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm gonna do both those rereads too, as soon as I've finished Card's "Alvin" books.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadowbinding Shoe, I've now finished my re-read of Mordant's Need, so am looking at the relevant texts to consider the questions/objections you have raised.

Quote:
King Joyse's smile was as bright and cleansing as the warm sunlight and the ineffable sky.

When he looked at Nyle, however, his smile went away.

He dismounted; he strode toward Nyle sternly, like a sovereign with a traitor to punish.

Then he stopped.

Instead of speaking harshly, he murmured, "Nyle, forgive me."

Nyle's face twisted helplessly. "Forgive--? My lord King, I betrayed you."

"Yes!" King Joyse retorted at once. "you betrayed me--as my daughter Elega betrayed me--as the Congery betrayed me. And because I was betrayed this victory became possible. Everything you did against me, you did out of love and honor. And for that reason everything you did played its part in the saving of my realm. You betrayed me to do Mordant good, Nyle. I failed you. I failed to see your importance, your worth, when my esteem would have been to your benefit.

"I could not have protected you from hurt. But I could have helped you place a higher value on yourself."

Nyle tried to answer; there may have been a number of things he wanted to say. But he couldn't control his weeping.

Both Artagel and Geraden put their arms around him.

King Joyse turned away to address everyone within earshot.

"Nyle has suffered," he announced in a tone both grim and elated, sorry and glad. "Do you hear me? He is not a traitor. He has suffered as the Perdon suffered, and as the Tor suffered, and Castellan Lebbick, because his love is strong and he did not understand."

As he spoke, his voice carried farther and farther, until it reached the walls and the armies, the men of Mordant and Alend and Cadwal throughout the valley.

"A great many good men have suffered and died, among them Master Quillon, who served my purposes when I could risk them with no one else, and Castellan Norge, who served Orison and Mordant and all of you with his life. And with their pain they have purchased a victory which we could not have gained otherwise.

"Remember that they were hurt for us! Remember that we have freedom and victory and life because of them!

"And because all of you fought like heroes!

"Now the world is ours, and we must heal it. From this day, let us make our world a place of peace.'

When he finished, the cheering went on for a long time.


Quote:
Blind, weary, content--and unwilling to face the rigors of a second journey to Orison--the Alend Monarch had sent his new Contender to stand in his place at the wedding: a man who now could claim precedence over everyone in Orison except King Joyse and Queen Madin, because of his position as Margonal's representative and potential successor.

The new Alend Contender was Nyle.

Arriving for the ceremony, he still appeared perplexed and a bit daunted by his circumstances. But when Kragen had been installed as High Regent in Carmag, Margonal had needed another Contender; and the Alend Monarch had sensed in Nyle a man with a newborn but almost ferocious instinct for caution. Caution, the Monarch had declared, was the fundamental requirement for anyone who meant to rule over Scarab and the Alend Lieges. Kragen had shown himself altogether too prone to risks, and Margonal wished to replace him with someone who lacked that flaw.

Nyle had refused the honor--or the responsibility--at first. He didn't deserve it, he wasn't worthy. Eventually, however, King Joyse had confronted him with a royal command, and he had felt himself forced to acquiesce.

The reports which King Joyse had since received from the Alend Monarch indicated theat Nyle was proving to be exactly the Contender Margonal wanted, despite his self-distrust.


Well, King Joyse certainly didn't cause Master Gilbur to practice his debauchery on Nyle, and likely couldn't even have forseen it, unless it was in Havelock's augery (I doubt it). His public apology, and his proclamation that Nyle had suffered because his love was strong and he didn't understand, may have been enough for Nyle to forgive him for slighting his importance. The ability to forgive is up to the individual, so maybe it was enough for Nyle.

Perhaps the ending with Nyle being a satisfying Contender for Margonal was forced, but then again, maybe Nyle knew now how to balance the desires of the different Alend barons in order to produce a stronger Alend union without showing to much favoritism for any particular Liege. But, what in Nyle's experience would make him better at this? I'm having trouble finding an answer to that one. Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really can't take to Nyle at all. I've just re-read Mordant's Need and still don't know very much about him.

He had wanted to serve Joyse since he was a child, but Joyse didn't notice him. He was the only brother (apart from Stead, who seems to be happy as he is) who wasn't married/employed usefully. He thinks Joyse owes him something. He was in love with Elega but couldn't have her. This last was his motive (to please Elega) for allying with Prince Kragen, but he seems to be unhappy about that too. Everything that happened to him from then on was due to Geraden's intervention when he went off to see the Perdon. He did turn back to help Gereden and Terisa against the Callat, which was his one saving grace.

Had we known him before he appeared at the bazaar his character may have developed more sympathetically. I'm obviously missing something!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the quotes, Cord Hun. Indeed, being broken doesn't often make you stronger, quite the opposite. It's underlying strength that might be revealed by hardship but I never got much of that from Nyle.

Oh, Nyle is not a very likeable fellow, Iolanthe. King Joyce himself struggles with that. Unlike the rest of his family, Nyle comes from a viewpoint of what is owed him instead of what he can give others (except for a few times). This makes him a contentious fellow that chews endlessly on his resentments but I think he might also contain the potential for strong loyalties.

Oh, wondering about your name and avatar I found Iolanthe the Opera and really enjoyed listening to it. Never heard it before. So thank you, Iolanthe.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, shadowbinding shoe. I chose Iolanthe because I love the opera, and because I was in it when I was minus 6 months old. My mother was a pregnant fairy. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Iolanthe and Shadowbinding Shoe that Nyle is not an easy character to "take to", as he's so full of resentment and self-pity. As Iolanthe says, his best moment is fighting the callat to save Geraden and Teresa, even though that gets him caught.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was also that time near the end when he helped Artagel defeat the Monomach in Eremis lair by waving his chains. He still had some fight left in him after all the tortures.

Quote:
Thank you, shadowbinding shoe. I chose Iolanthe because I love the opera, and because I was in it when I was minus 6 months old. My mother was a pregnant fairy. Very Happy


That's so cute Big Grin Razz LOL Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
There was also that time near the end when he helped Artagel defeat the Monomach in Eremis lair by waving his chains. He still had some fight left in him after all the tortures.

Quote:
Thank you, shadowbinding shoe. I chose Iolanthe because I love the opera, and because I was in it when I was minus 6 months old. My mother was a pregnant fairy. Very Happy


That's so cute Big Grin Razz LOL Very Happy



I second that! Hearts
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
I don't have any thoughts on Nyle as it's been way too many years since reading, The Mirror of Her Dreams.

Oddly enough, a while ago I had worked with a meditational (2yr course) book that encouraged imaginative exploration (some of which was sourced from Eric Berne's bestseller, The Games People Play). The idea being that one imagines walking into and through the back of a wardrobe, and down a spiral staircase to "Inner Rooms". After visiting these inner rooms on a regular basis a change might occur in the psyche, as explorative activity percolates up into daily consciousness.
I stopped smoking as a result. A beneficial side affect to a cure for a long term of mental disorder.
I digress.

The meditational course work I'd used happened to be based on the Egyptian pantheon. Though any would do. It's interesting to note that the name Nyle, parallels this strangely, and now has me absolutely fascinated. I really must make the time to read Mordan't Need again, and find out what happened in part II: A Man Rides Through - which I hadn't finished.

Thanks

edit: A local bookshop had, A Man Rides Through. But no, Mirror of her Dreams.
Which meant I could afford to buy two thin Pelican's as well. A good day's shop.


I hope you're feeling encouraged to finish A Man Rides Through, Rune (AKA Vizidor, Rod, Dura Fairflank). I believe you'll be glad you did!!! In my opinion, the second Mordant's Need book is fantastic and makes the whole exercise of reading this story worthwhile!!! It's DEFINITELY worth finishing, I assure you! Big Grin Mordant's Need is the Stephen R. Donaldson work I love the most, to be honest with you, though I pretty much enjoy almost everything he's written.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
I don't think Nyle would forget all his grievances just like that but maybe Joyce is charming and charismatic enough to pull it of.


Well, I don't know about Nyle's capacity to forgive, shadowbing shoe, but I have no doubt that King Joyse has all the charisma he needs to win over all but his most sworn enemies. Not just by his smiles, but by how he reveals his compassionate convictions. Only the truly selfish evil characters are not swayed, and they go the other direction of hating Joyse with a passion.

Nyle is probably still susceptible to influence and inspiration by King Joyse, even after all that's happened.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Well, I suppose we could argue that he's learned a lesson in being used, and so would be protected from it in the future?

--A


Yes, I think so. Nyle could be a very wise and wary leader, useful traits in dealing with the wily and scheming Alend Lieges, and in keeping a balance maintained between them all.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The success of governing the Alend Lieges, which are described as unruly, is said a few times by either Kragen or Margonal to be a matter of keeping them balanced so that they feel there is no favoritism, I think!

I need to look up more quotes on this in the near future to see if my memory is right about that. I may be mistaken on that point. Confused Embarassed
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds logical, even if it isn't right. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to be logical, then! Mr. Green When I have a little more free time to research, I'll see if I can look up some quotes relevant to this matter. One thing I don't doubt: after all he has been through, Nyle is likely to be a very cautious character. Perhaps that's what is called for to effectively rule Alend!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Terisa is thrown into the dungeon, how many people visit her, and who are they???
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect there used to be inheritence wars. Margonal worked to change it into popularity contests. So his heir needs to be anti-martial.

Cord Hurn wrote:
When Terisa is thrown into the dungeon, how many people visit her, and who are they???


Wrong thread
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