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the Watch and Gun Ownership
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do you own a gun?
no, I do not and never will own a gun
29%
 29%  [ 7 ]
I do not own a gun now, but have no problem getting one in the future
20%
 20%  [ 5 ]
yes, I do own a gun, and maybe more than one
50%
 50%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 24

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
What I expected.


Uh-huh...notice you're not answering my question either. The actual stats for unintentional injuries by firearm don't exist, because nobody is really tracking them. Thus we are left with logic? If you leave aside suicide and homicide, the remaining injuries (around 10% IIRC) are unintentional, right? How are unintentional firearm injuries not negligent?

Zarathustra wrote:
What does the issue of concealment have to do with this?


It's not about the concealing as far as I'm concerned, it's about carrying. If you're going to carry it, you should be able to prove that you can do so competently.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Cail wrote:
What I expected.


Uh-huh...notice you're not answering my question either. The actual stats for unintentional injuries by firearm don't exist, because nobody is really tracking them. Thus we are left with logic? If you leave aside suicide and homicide, the remaining injuries (around 10% IIRC) are unintentional, right? How are unintentional firearm injuries not negligent?
I'm not going to dignify this idiocy with an answer. But if a child dies accidentally, is that automatically negligence on the part of the parents?

Didn't think so.

You really don't have to reply to every post Av. No one cares about your post count.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
But if a child dies accidentally, is that automatically negligence on the part of the parents?
If the cause of death was a gun owned by the parents, yes. At least I can't think of a scenario where it is not. In one second, an accident can kill a child. It's happened many times. Do not leave a loaded gun unattended for one second.

Do not leave an unloaded gun and ammo unattended for the amount of time it takes to load and shoot it.

Do not leave it locked up somewhere with a key that is not with you. Kids watch, and know where keys are hidden. (Who knew where their father's Playboys were kept?)

Nobody can claim they didn't know these things are possible and have happened to others. If your child dies because of it, it is your fault.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Cail wrote:
But if a child dies accidentally, is that automatically negligence on the part of the parents?
If the cause of death was a gun owned by the parents, yes. At least I can't think of a scenario where it is not. In one second, an accident can kill a child. It's happened many times. Do not leave a loaded gun unattended for one second.

Do not leave an unloaded gun and ammo unattended for the amount of time it takes to load and shoot it.

Do not leave it locked up somewhere with a key that is not with you. Kids watch, and know where keys are hidden. (Who knew where their father's Playboys were kept?)

Nobody can claim they didn't know these things are possible and have happened to others. If your child dies because of it, it is your fault.
That's a very facile and simplistic worldview. Accidents are accidents, they're not necessarily negligence.

But OMG guns r bad lolz.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, accidents are accidents. In the kind of incident we're discussing, the accident is the child's.

But it was not an accident that the child had the gun. It was not an accident that the gun was left out. It was not an accident that the key to the locked box where the gun was kept was where the child could get it. It was negligence.

Yes, accidents are accidents. And there is no way to prevent accidental deaths. Many parents have suffered the horror of their child dying from an accidental injury. Maybe a child dragged the chair to the counter, and climbed on the counter to get the cookies in the cabinet. Then the child lost his balance, fell off the counter, hit his head, and died. Surely an accident. A horrifying, tragic accident.

Is the parent guilty of negligence in this case, as well? It was the parent who left the chair where the child could get it, and let the child become aware of (maybe even told the child) where the cookies are. Same situation?

No, it is not. Cookies are a snack. Chairs are primarily used for sitting. Neither are intended to cause catastrophic damage to things, with living things being the target they were originally created for, and work best on. After all, a bullet hole in the wall, car door, television, or furnace is not as bad as getting even the smallest toe blown off.

When you bring something that was invented to cause catastrophic damage, and that cannot do anything but cause catastrophic damage if used, you damned well better make sure your child cannot get hold of it without your direct supervision. If you are not going to make sure of this, don't have a gun. And there is no conceivable way to say the parents of these children made sure of this. What happened to their children cannot in any way suggest the parents' thoroughness in safeguarding the children. The children either had the gun without the parents' knowledge or without their supervision. The dead children don't care about any blanket-statement excuses like "accidents are accidents". Neither do I. Be a responsible parent. Do whatever you need to do to make sure your child cannot accidentally kill himself with your gun.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:


It's not about the concealing as far as I'm concerned, it's about carrying. If you're going to carry it, you should be able to prove that you can do so competently.

--A
30,000+ people die in car crashes every year. 99.9% of them have government issued licenses. A government license doesn't prove crap. Even if you pass whatever dumb tests they'll inevitably give, it doesn't mean you won't do the gun equivalent of texting while driving. Sometimes freedom is sloppy. Government and force doesn't fix the sloppiness, it only restricts the freedom.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
I'm not going to dignify this idiocy with an answer.


I don't understand why this is so difficult for you. I said the vast majority of unintentional firearm injuries and deaths are as a result of negligence.

What is objectionable about that statement? You're telling me they're not? So what are they a result of?

Fist and Faith wrote:
Cail wrote:
But if a child dies accidentally, is that automatically negligence on the part of the parents?
If the cause of death was a gun owned by the parents, yes. At least I can't think of a scenario where it is not.


I have to agree with Fist on this. Leaving a firearm where a child can access it is negligent. Nobody said guns are bad.

Zarathustra wrote:
30,000+ people die in car crashes every year. 99.9% of them have government issued licenses. A government license doesn't prove crap. Even if you pass whatever dumb tests they'll inevitably give, it doesn't mean you won't do the gun equivalent of texting while driving.


Fair enough, and good point. Still, at the very least it would remove the argument that one didn't know better. And it should go some way toward reducing unsafe handling.

(License tests here include tests on safety and the legalities of ownership and deadly force for exactly that reason...nobody can claim they didn't know the law or the correct safety procedures, because you have to demonstrate them to get a license. (Well, a competency certificate, which is a prerequisite for a license.)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concealed carry holder saves lives

Quote:
A masked man burst into a 7-Eleven near Seattle early Sunday morning, swinging a hatchet and slicing the store clerk.

Before the masked man could seriously hurt anyone, however, a customer who had been drinking his morning coffee pulled out a concealed weapon and fatally shot the attacker.

Authorities did not name the attacker or the customer, but they did hail the concealed weapon owner as a hero.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of kids and guns. When I had small children in the house, my guns were out of reach and they had no idea where they were (my pistols). Those that were locked (my hunting rifles), I keep the key on me so no problem there. Now that there are no kids in the house, I keep it less safe from that perspective. Eventually when there are grandchildren, I will change that to keep them in mind.

With today's technology, there is no reason not to get a bio-metic gun safe and/or biometric trigger guards. Only your fingerprints will open it and don't have one in the chamber so if its dropped the firing pin wont accidentally cause the weapon to discharge.
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"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I am inclined to agree with you. If you are legally able to buy any sort of gun--as you should, up to and including fully-automatic ones--that is one thing. To be able to carry one concealed I am going to prefer that you have a license and have taken maintenance, safety, and gun-related law classes. That isn't an unreasonable request.
What does the issue of concealment have to do with this? Why does that increase the need for safety? A gun in a purse or a pocket is safer than a gun on your hip. The kid next to you in the shopping cart at Walmart might see that holstered gun and think it's a cool toy to grab. (Yes, I know that scenario has actually happened with a gun in a purse.) I don't understand why people think concealed weapons are scarier. Is it the unknown? People are scared of dangers they can't see?


In and of itself, concealment doesn't equate to "increased risk" and doesn't make the gun "scary". Every person who owns a gun should take safety and maintenance courses...but then a lot of things "should" happen which do not.

Many people have been taught "guns are bad" and thus their anxiety level increases, often at the mere mention of the word "gun". There was a guy a year or two ago who was arrested for being able to carry a piece of wood with the word "gun" painted on it into an elementary school. Arrested for what, having the word "gun" on a piece of wood? His point was made, though--the school security was lax.

News stories such as SoulBiter's "concealed carry holder saves life" hardly make the national news but I guarantee if some guy shoots two or three people at one location it will be a national headline screaming some variation of "the latest mass shooting" .

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
On the topic of kids and guns. When I had small children in the house, my guns were out of reach and they had no idea where they were (my pistols). Those that were locked (my hunting rifles), I keep the key on me so no problem there. Now that there are no kids in the house, I keep it less safe from that perspective. Eventually when there are grandchildren, I will change that to keep them in mind.
That's the responsible way.

SoulBiter wrote:
With today's technology, there is no reason not to get a bio-metic gun safe and/or biometric trigger guards. Only your fingerprints will open it and don't have one in the chamber so if its dropped the firing pin wont accidentally cause the weapon to discharge.
Nope. Biometrics work great in the movies, but I live with an iPhone that has a fingerprint reader. It reads my fingerprint with, at best, a 75% chance of success upon the first try, and even then, there's about a second's delay for it to unlock. If my finger's wet, forget it. That won't work on a gun. It needs to work 100% of the time, and it needs to work instantly and on demand, even if your hands are wet, sweaty, or bloody. Someone sprinting at you can cover at least 20 feet in a second. You're dead if you can't fire your weapon.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, not keen on biometrics, not even keen on electronic locks. Also, a frightening number of the safes on the market are not actually secure. (And sometimes not even suitable for the purpose for which they're sold.

This guy easily breaks into a number of "safes" with no special skills or training.

http://www.handgunsaferesearch.com/firearms-safety-devices

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We use them at work for entry into high value areas. Its basically a standard lock with a biometric pad on it. I have never seen it not work but I could see how a wet finger or dirty finger would be an issue or if your anxiety level was up and you weren't leaving your finger still enough to get a read.

Still plenty of good ways to keep your firearms safe... not many of them are 100% and still give you access quickly at need. But you have to balance safety of your family/kids with being able to access at need. When the kids were young, we decided it was better to slow our own access rather than risk having the kids getting their hands on them.
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"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done, SB.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
We use them at work for entry into high value areas. Its basically a standard lock with a biometric pad on it. I have never seen it not work but I could see how a wet finger or dirty finger would be an issue or if your anxiety level was up and you weren't leaving your finger still enough to get a read.

Still plenty of good ways to keep your firearms safe... not many of them are 100% and still give you access quickly at need. But you have to balance safety of your family/kids with being able to access at need. When the kids were young, we decided it was better to slow our own access rather than risk having the kids getting their hands on them.
Everything I may or may not have is in a safe inside a locked room (that I also may or may not have). I have a single pistol accessible at night in a place that only my wife and I can get to .

It's the responsible thing to do. Our son is autistic, and simply can't be trained or trusted with a firearm (when he's unattended, he actually shoots pretty well with me).

If/when he leaves the house, it's a different ballgame. I'd love to have a shotgun over the hearth, and a few pistols strategically placed around the homestead.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:

It's the responsible thing to do.


This is exactly what some people seem to not know. How to be responsible. Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

Two thumbs up for good parenting!!
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My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:
On the topic of kids and guns. When I had small children in the house, my guns were out of reach and they had no idea where they were (my pistols). Those that were locked (my hunting rifles), I keep the key on me so no problem there. Now that there are no kids in the house, I keep it less safe from that perspective. Eventually when there are grandchildren, I will change that to keep them in mind.
That's the responsible way.

SoulBiter wrote:
With today's technology, there is no reason not to get a bio-metic gun safe and/or biometric trigger guards. Only your fingerprints will open it and don't have one in the chamber so if its dropped the firing pin wont accidentally cause the weapon to discharge.
Nope. Biometrics work great in the movies, but I live with an iPhone that has a fingerprint reader. It reads my fingerprint with, at best, a 75% chance of success upon the first try, and even then, there's about a second's delay for it to unlock. If my finger's wet, forget it. That won't work on a gun. It needs to work 100% of the time, and it needs to work instantly and on demand, even if your hands are wet, sweaty, or bloody. Someone sprinting at you can cover at least 20 feet in a second. You're dead if you can't fire your weapon.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do biometrics read two prints? my wife and I need access.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
do biometrics read two prints? my wife and I need access.
The ones we use at work, you can store multiple prints for each lock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
sgt.null wrote:
do biometrics read two prints? my wife and I need access.
The ones we use at work, you can store multiple prints for each lock


I still will not trust such a device, as tech fails. and if it can be turned on, someone can turn it off. but thank you for the answer SB.
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