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DT4: Wizard and Glass
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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: DT4: Wizard and Glass Reply with quote

At first, I was a little disappointed that we got another 70 pages of Blaine, after a forward that was word-for-word copy of the end of the last book. But then when we step off the train and ... my god! We're in The Stand! Holy Shit! I had no idea that the character would literally walk into the stories of other books. I thought the connections would be more like characters from those stories popping into Roland's world, or referring to them, etc.

I'm not very far into this section, but I think it's around the time that everyone was making their way to Nebraska. Looks like a chance for our heroes to meet some Stand characters, given that they're in Topeka. I wonder if we get to see what Mother Abagail was doing when she disappeared for two weeks? Hmm ....
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wish I had time to dive back in and read this with you.

Damn I love this book.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favourite DT book, especially combined with the Little Sisters of Eluria short story. (Which should be read after it, and before DT5.)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
My favourite DT book, especially combined with the Little Sisters of Eluria short story. (Which should be read after it, and before DT5.)

^what he said^

...and perhaps a quick skim of 'Salem's Lot, if it's been a long time since you read it.

I enjoyed Little Sisters so much, I based my characters for Montressor's Borderlands game on them.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, The Wind Through The Keyhole fits in here. In fact, technically it fits after W&G and before Little sisters.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to know. Thanks everyone. Menolly, I responded to your earlier post, but I don't mind to repeat myself. Big Grin I read SL last year, so I'm good.

Now that I see how dependent the text can be on previous books, I'm worried about skipping Talisman and Black House. Should I be? Do they play as prominent a role as The Stand?
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not nearly as prominent.

They're part of the story, but nearly as much so as other books.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Cail said. In fact, while I remember the bits of them that are from Roland's world, I don't really remember anything in the DT series that brings them up. There must be something, but so minor that it's not memorable.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They weren't on the list of books and short stories Av posted that I followed, so I have no idea what, in the DT series, may be tied to them.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having done a bit of looking up, I can tell you that it's basically nothing. A lot of stuff from the DT is mentioned in Black House, but the connection appears to be one way.

The Talisman really isn't affected at all. It happens in "The Territories" which are mentioned in DT3, and "the White" is mentioned in The Talisman. Otherwise the only other mention is of a land named "Garlan." Mentioned in the DT, and eyes of the Dragon.

That's basically it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome. Thanks a lot. It's nice to have a DT guide(s) on my journey.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, King really knows how to mix it up. This book is so different. I'm having a blast learning Roland's backstory.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. Basically my favourite part of the whole thing. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm almost done with this one. (I had a personal crisis in the last month, been reading slower.) I've finished everything except the last section where the story returns to The Stand world. I kept wondering about the title of the book, why the "glass" was prominent enough to make it to the title, and now I see why: it's where Roland gets his quest. That kind of sneaks up on you, because you think this is primarily a story about his first (lost) love. But his first glimpse of the Tower is much more important. I suppose it's almost equally important to see what he is giving up in his quest for the Tower, but we already sort of knew that, as he was ready to sacrifice Jake and apparently others for this quest. Knowing now that he was ready to leave Susan for good in order to go questing was quite a shock ... though not nearly as brutal as seeing Susan burned alive. I knew this story had to end in tragedy, but DAMN!

Like I said, I've got one more short section to go, but I'd have to say this is definitely a highlight of the series, if only for how different it is. I like it much better than DT1 and the second half of DT3. However, I think I still like DT2 and the first half of DT3 better. I like old Roland and the interplay between our world and his world. I'm glad to have seen this part of his story, but it's like the flashbacks in Lost: at some point, I was ready to get on with it and return to the main event. Maybe it was my own personal crisis that slowed me down, but the last 1/4 seemed to drag. Once Roland and Co were captured (so easily), or maybe even once everyone stopped pretending to be nice and all the cards were on the table, it seemed to lose some tension. I no longer wondered what would happen next, but simply waited for the inevitable to play out. The final section may change my mind, but for now I'm ranking it below DT2 and above DT3.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the flashbacks more than the main story. Maybe because the main story is basically the ending of Roland's journey, and seeing how he got there (and that way) is great for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the flashbacks make it for me. King does such an amazing job of creating the world within the world. He paints it as though it's a dream.

I have no time at all for pleasure reading, but damn I want to dust this one off.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
King does such an amazing job of creating the world within the world.


Agreed. Those glimpses of what Roland's world used to be like before it moved on are great.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I finished. My usual complaint: King doesn't know how to end books. The Wizard of Oz? Seriously? Why? Flagg (and King) saved Tick-tock man for that? To have him make one gimmicky appearance behind the curtain before blowing his brains out? And Flagg/Marten appeared only to remind Roland of something he already knew (i.e. that he killed his own mom)? I suppose this was ostensibly for Roland's friends, so that they'd doubt Roland, but he was already telling them his past anyway, and he'd promised to tell them that one last 'glass vision' soon. So the truth was going to come out. Roland already had a sense of obligation to tell his friends, because he was starting to care about them, and wanted full disclosure. Thus, there was absolutely no point in Flagg showing up at all. Just a gimmick, an excuse to inform the *readers* of one last piece of Roland's past.

This just makes Flagg look impotent. He shows up, does the Wiz of Oz shtick, warns Roland to stop, and then is immediately dismissed by Roland's group. Does Flagg not have any magical weapons at all? He can't actually fight Roland? It's all gimmicks and tricks? If so, then there is zero threat, zero tension. Only melodrama.

I know you guys loved this book. I liked it okay. I hate being the buzz kill, but I hate bad endings even worse.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Those glimpses of what Roland's world used to be like before it moved on are great.

When I say that DT4 is my favorite book of the series, I am excluding the beginning section and the ending section. There's a bit of denial in that -- I admit it.

I would love it if the Mejis sub-story had been a book on it's own right ... but I don't think it would have hit as hard if we hadn't had the setup of the first three DT books. So ... it's a matter of enjoying the good without letting the bad get in the way, I say.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Avatar wrote:
Those glimpses of what Roland's world used to be like before it moved on are great.

When I say that DT4 is my favorite book of the series, I am excluding the beginning section and the ending section. There's a bit of denial in that -- I admit it.

I would love it if the Mejis sub-story had been a book on it's own right ... but I don't think it would have hit as hard if we hadn't had the setup of the first three DT books. So ... it's a matter of enjoying the good without letting the bad get in the way, I say.
I wholeheartedly agree.

Zar, the ending doesn't matter. There's a saying in the motorcycle community.....It's the journey, not the destination. By and large, this book has nothing to do with The Dark Tower; it's just a fictional character telling a story. Let it be what it is.
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