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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

After the Coup, What Then?

Quote:
What will be the reaction out there in fly-over country, that land where the "deplorables" dwell who produce the soldiers to fight our wars? Will they toast the "free press" that brought down the president they elected, and in whom they had placed so much hope?

My guess: The reaction will be one of bitterness, cynicism, despair, a sense that the fix is in, that no matter what we do, they will not let us win. If Trump is brought down, American democracy will take a pasting. It will be seen as a fraud. And the backlash will poison our politics to where only an attack from abroad, like 9/11, will reunite us.

[…]

Consider the Post's publication of the transcripts of Trump's calls with Mexico's president and Australia's prime minister.

When reporter Greg Miller got these transcripts, his editors, knowing they would damage Trump, plastered them on Page 1.

The Post was letting itself be used by a leaker engaged in disloyal and possibly criminal misconduct. Yet the Post agreed to provide confidentiality and to hide the Trump-hater's identity.

This is what we do, says the Post. People have a right to know if President Trump says one thing at rallies about Mexico paying for the wall and another to the president of Mexico. This is a story.

[…]

Do the people not have a right know who are the snakes collaborating with the Never-Trump press to bring down their head of state? Is not discovering the identities of deep-state felons a story that investigative reporters should be all over?

If Greg Miller is obligated to protect his source, fine. But why are other journalists not exposing his identity?

The answer suggests itself. This is a collaborative enterprise, where everyone protects everyone else's sources, because all have the same goal: the dumping of Trump. If that requires collusion with criminals, so be it. …

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unheard of a person in his position tweeting off the cuff .. and no one can reign him in. He is his own worse enemy. It's unprofessional and looks bad. I am no Trump fan, he's an egomaniac and comes across as an idiot that can't string a sentence together. He is indeed a global laughing stock. And I thought George W took the cake! Trump is in a class of his own.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

In the "Charlottesville" thread, Avatar wrote:
Hmmm, some good points all round.

Interestingly, I was going to post my question originally in the "President Trump" thread, but the damn thing won't let me post anything...keep getting the 406 error, even when I just try to post "test."

Somebody else please see if they can post to it?

The reason was because Trump's reaction has been getting so much grief, so I was interested to see the article Cail posted addressing that.

--A


test

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wos.

Seems if somebody else posts, the problem goes away for me.

Weird.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
It's unheard of a person in his position tweeting off the cuff .. and no one can reign him in. He is his own worse enemy. It's unprofessional and looks bad. I am no Trump fan, he's an egomaniac and comes across as an idiot that can't string a sentence together. He is indeed a global laughing stock. And I thought George W took the cake! Trump is in a class of his own.


I have been saying for quite some time now that Trump's people need to take his Twitter access away from him.

The process of updating the rules on requiring public officials to keep records of their communication is still ongoing. As of right now, Trump is not required by law to keep a permanent record of his Tweets...which may be part of the reason he uses that medium for communication so often--he can delete tweets. (other people capture and store his tweets, though, so there is a record of them)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a recent court case here, the Dept of Minerals announced via a tweet that they would not be implementing a controversial policy (said policy being the reason for the court case) and the judge asked the minister if he thought he was Donald Trump, pointing out that Twitter was not an acceptable medium for policy announcements. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
In a recent court case here, the Dept of Minerals announced via a tweet that they would not be implementing a controversial policy (said policy being the reason for the court case) and the judge asked the minister if he thought he was Donald Trump, pointing out that Twitter was not an acceptable medium for policy announcements. Very Happy

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Hahahaha! Well there you go 😏 ...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi I'm totally with you ... for his own good if for no other reason twitter ... although perhaps apart from what you rightly pointed out (and is most likely the reason he abuses twitter) ... is still a record of his own damaging statements. And I mean damaging to himself !!!

It's odd and arguably the height of idiocy for someone in his position to tweet every random thought he gets for the whole world to see! Some of the things he's said are discombobulating 😏😱😜🙄😬 ... in the extreme.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly--the operative phrase is "no filter". I can understand "no filter" being the default for some millennial giving us essentially unfettered access to their daily life but when you are the 70-something POTUS you would think that a little more care would be taken when choosing one's words.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to trivialize this and I know Trump is a jackass. I am not defending him specifically but the backlash from his "both sides" comment seems a little weird to me.

Wouldn't any mayor, governor, president take this position with regard to the entirety of the citizens he/she leads?

It may not have been appropriate in this case but I instantly understood what he was trying to do. Without being specific he just blurted out a platitude that suggests that "we're all to blame" in order to diffuse a situation and move on to solving the problem.

It was stupid but I didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that Trump is a closet white supremacist and was defending his friends in the KKK. I thought it was just a knucklehead thing to say like half of everything the guy says or tweets.

Maybe I'm supposed to flip out like I've seen others do but that's never going to be my first reaction.

If it turns out Trump really is some nasty bigot then I'll probably assume everything he says like this comes from an evil place. I'm just not going to assume it now based on what I've seen so far.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:
I am not defending him specifically but the backlash from his "both sides" comment seems a little weird to me.
You're not the only one. People complain that his rhetoric to a homicidal dictator was too harsh, and his rhetoric regarding his own citizens wasn't harsh enough. It really doesn't matter what he says, his comments won't be well received by his political rivals.

I can't believe that the truth is so offensive to the Left. I can't believe we're not allowed to point out violence on the Left without being accused of being racists. If there was ever a need for both sides to deescalate this situation, it is now. "Protesters" are arriving armed for battle, on both sides.

Obama tried to lecture us that Christianity was just as guilty of violence as Islam, and the very same people defended him. Obama refused to name the groups and ideology responsible for Islamic terrorism, and there was no mainstream backlash. Obama even went so far as to actively hide the allegiance of the Orlando shooter and the Benghazi terrorists, but Trump's an asshole for waiting 2 days to name the KKK? At least Trump didn't blame Charlottesville on a video and lock up the videography as a scapegoat. At least Trump didn't look the mother of Heather Heyer in the eye and lie to her at her daughter's funeral, promising to "get that videographer responsible for her daughter's death," like Hillary did.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC ~ I hear you .. and I'm trying to see what you're suggesting.
It's not that a POTUS wouldn't, you would Hope want to find the right words to diffuse a very sensitive and potentially volatile situation - these things we would expect from a benevolent leader concerned with maintaining the peace and finding common middle ground. But I listened to his unprepared, and unfortunately not well considered words, and it is hard not to see his overt opinion on the entire unpleasant incident. Look surprisingly for me, I get the wanting to preserve historical monuments .. but the rhetoric that accompanied that desire was gravely misplaced. And stepping back from sides, a president of the free (cough) world 😏 cant condone racist rhetoric especially as it comes with so much history and meaning to a part of your public. Trump did less than the noble attributes you interpret in your leader. He in his usual stupid, faltering way - implied that he sympathised with the protestors - because they had a permit. To me he'd been briefed by one of his cronies and basically sputtered what he'd been advised by a Bannon-like advisor. It was telling and he tried to even out his words along the way - but he'd already gone too far. His "there are good people [among the legitimate 😏 Protesters, umm on both sides] ... and it's from there we interpret favourably that he was attempting to be balanced - when in fact his words really made the opposite point (than maybe what he intended). But I really think that's being generous. ☹️

Zarathustra wrote:
aTOMiC wrote:
I am not defending him specifically but the backlash from his "both sides" comment seems a little weird to me.
You're not the only one. People complain that his rhetoric to a homicidal dictator was too harsh, and his rhetoric regarding his own citizens wasn't harsh enough. It really doesn't matter what he says, his comments won't be well received by his political rivals.

I can't believe that the truth is so offensive to the Left. I can't believe we're not allowed to point out violence on the Left without being accused of being racists. If there was ever a need for both sides to deescalate this situation, it is now. "Protesters" are arriving armed for battle, on both sides.

Obama tried to lecture us that Christianity was just as guilty of violence as Islam, and the very same people defended him. Obama refused to name the groups and ideology responsible for Islamic terrorism, and there was no mainstream backlash. Obama even went so far as to actively hide the allegiance of the Orlando shooter and the Benghazi terrorists, but Trump's an asshole for waiting 2 days to name the KKK? At least Trump didn't blame Charlottesville on a video and lock up the videography as a scapegoat. At least Trump didn't look the mother of Heather Heyer in the eye and lie to her at her daughter's funeral, promising to "get that videographer responsible for her daughter's death," like Hillary did.


Z ~ I'm not Trumps political rival and I thought he totally cocked any attempt of "de-escalation". I don't believe for an instant that, that was what he was attempting to do. He was bombastic with questions, held his face in his famous pout pose, with his nose in the air, not wanting to hear or address concerns, just wanting to rabbit off his position. I don't even think it was "his" position - he was just echoing what his alt-right leaning advisor/s had briefed him. He bullshits like no one can question "his truths". He sees himself as all knowing, KNOWING MORE THAN ANY ONE ELSE, being BETTER than EVERYONE, more intelligent, more talented, a stellar individual. If I didn't know better I'd say he suffers delusions of grandeur.

I'm not a US citizen, but if I were I'd be more worried about the future of my home. It's clear you adore the man and it's almost sad that you can't smell the bullshit. I do hope these words do not offend. I'm not interested in offering offence ... at all. Truly. But I have read his twitter feed and his tweets are crazy stupid. And those that blindly defend him confound me.

I'm not familiar with the funeral of Heather Heyer, and thus has nothing to do with Obama. Not sure why when Trump does something stupid, harmful or insensitive his defenders first port of call is Obama. His watch is ended.

This is all about the dude in the big boys chair, your POTUS. Well I suppose it could be worse.. it could be Spence in the chair .. and methinks Trump is the lesser evil.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:


I'm not a US citizen, but if I were I'd be more worried about the future of my home. It's clear you adore the man and it's almost sad that you can't smell the bullshit. I do hope these words do not offend. I'm not interested in offering offence ... at all.


Sky, I for one am not offended in the least.
Trump is an ass hat but that's who we elected.
He's not a politician and he hasn't spent his life being groomed to be a political leader. He's essentially Fred Flintstone. He's just a glorified construction worker from Jersey that happened to build his business up to the point that he's worth a ton of cash. Good for him. Nothing about his past has really given him the ability to behave like a president. Disaffected voters sick of the same types of politicians getting high office made him president because he wasn't presidential and he's proving that every day.
Its not really his fault, its ours, that he's in there doing what he does they way he does things. We shouldn't be surprised because essentially that's what we asked for. The problem is, whether we knew it or not, we still expected him to behave in a presidential way when he got in. He hasn't.

In my opinion Trump may be a lot of dumb things but I don't think he's a racist I think he's just painfully unsophisticated. You can get away with being rough around the edges in private business but its something else entirely when its an elected office. I doubt the American people will make the same kind of choice again in the future.

One of the things that surprised the heck out of me was that he ran as a Republican. My impression of Trump for the last couple of decades was that he was an ardent Democrat given where he hangs his hat most of the time.

He's surprising, I'll give him that.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL ... he's giving late night commentators and stand up comedians plenty of material 😜 ...

Yes he's not presidential .. wasn't groomed through college and a subsequent career in public service/politics. It's a pity he won't be taught ... yeah he's made a chunk of money, most of it legacy of his father. He has made many racist comments throughout his life, as you'll be aware refused blacks places of residence in his apartments .. I forget which case went to court. I do see him as racist .. but I am very much on the outer looking in ☹️ he might be the epitome of tolerance and all about equality in his private life.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, Skyweir, I don't get offended easily. I prefer for people to say what they actually think, which is one of the traits I appreciate in Trump.

Skyweir wrote:

It's not that a POTUS wouldn't, you would Hope want to find the right words to diffuse a very sensitive and potentially volatile situation - these things we would expect from a benevolent leader concerned with maintaining the peace and finding common middle ground.
There can be no "finding common middle ground" if we can only criticize the violence on one side.

Skyweir wrote:

a president of the free (cough) world _ cant condone racist rhetoric ...
Can you provide a quote where Trump condones racist rhetoric? Defending free speech is not the same as defending the content of that speech.

Skyweir wrote:

Trump did less than the noble attributes you interpret in your leader. He in his usual stupid, faltering way - implied that he sympathised with the protestors - because they had a permit.
Your inference is not his implication. You're putting words in his mouth. You can't attribute your assumptions to his intentions.

Skyweir wrote:

His "there are good people [among the legitimate _ Protesters, umm on both sides] ... and it's from there we interpret favourably that he was attempting to be balanced - when in fact his words really made the opposite point (than maybe what he intended). But I really think that's being generous. __
There ARE good people on both sides of the statue debate! Unfortunately, some of them are also racists and violent, and the Left is trying to blur that distinction. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute ... the liberal media is salivating for the chance to imply that Trump and his voters are racists, as they've been doing for months. Now, because of the actions of one man, an entire political party is being portrayed as guilty by association. His words are no different from Obama saying that not all Muslims are terrorists. For some reason, this is considered calming when Obama does it, but inflammatory when Trump does it. But the difference is entirely in "the ears that hear" (to quote Donaldson).

Skyweir wrote:


Z ~ I'm not Trumps political rival and I thought he totally cocked any attempt of "de-escalation". I don't believe for an instant that, that was what he was attempting to do. He was bombastic with questions, held his face in his famous pout pose, with his nose in the air, not wanting to hear or address concerns, just wanting to rabbit off his position.
He was facing a confrontational, hostile press who were trying to paint him as a racist. That tends to make a person defensive.

Skyweir wrote:

I have read his twitter feed and his tweets are crazy stupid.
Have you read this one?

On Twitter, Trump wrote:

We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!


Those don't get reported by the "unbiased" media, do they? I bet you haven't seen them. Do you actually read his Twitter account, or only those that are publicized by his opponents? I'm not blindly defending. But it might be possible that you're blindly attacking.


Skyweir wrote:

I'm not familiar with the funeral of Heather Heyer, and thus has nothing to do with Obama.
Heather Heyer was the woman who was killed by the racist this weekend. It's telling that you don't know her name, but you can rattle off Trump quotes that you don't like. I think that reveals where your true interests lie. That's why I point out Obama--or rather, the Left's reaction to Obama--to show that this issue isn't really about the content of Trump's words or the issue of racism or even the tragic victim lost this weekend. Those are nothing but excuses for blatant partisanship. We're seeing a power play in action, not moral indignation. If people were actually offended by this kind of thing, they'd be offended when the Left does it too.

Trump wrote:

As I said on Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence - it has no place in America. And as I have said many times before, no matter the color of our skin, we all live under the same laws. We all salute the same great flag, and we are all made by the same almighty God. We must love each other, show affection for each other and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry and violence. We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans.

Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans. We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our creator, we are equal under the law and we are equal under our constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry, strike at the very core of America.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm.. I am definitely coming back to this but to be clear what I said I was unaware of what happened at Heyer's funeral and whatever Teump or Obama or Clinton that you alluded to said. So roll back on your allegations if my ignorance. Also lol .. yes I e read his twitter feed. I'm not following it obsessively - to be frank just reading a few of his tweets irritates me and what his adoring followers say is even more irritating. However, I did not read the tweet you mentioned. Perfectly reasonable, uncharacteristicalky so, but good to read.

I'm at work now ~ but I will return to address your other comments, in full 😏
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jun 5, 2013 03:05:30 AM Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics-a tough subject-must be discussed. [Twitter for Android]
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:

It may not have been appropriate in this case but I instantly understood what he was trying to do. Without being specific he just blurted out a platitude that suggests that "we're all to blame" in order to diffuse a situation and move on to solving the problem.


Largely agree with that. although I think the reaction he got did end up leading to him doubling down a bit on the implications later. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Mmm.. I am definitely coming back to this but to be clear what I said I was unaware of what happened at Heyer's funeral and whatever Teump or Obama or Clinton that you alluded to said. So roll back on your allegations if my ignorance.
A quick recap: the Obama administration lied to the American people about perpetrators who committed the terrorist attack upon our Consulate in Benghazi, blaming it on an American videographer instead of the actual perps, Al Qeada. Hillary (as Secretary of State) went so far with this deception as to lie to mother of one of the victims of the terrorist attack at her son's funeral, doubling down on the false narrative. They did this so that Obama's Middle East policies wouldn't get blamed (as their own internal memos explicitly stated) despite the fact that they knew the very night of the attack that the video had nothing to do with it (as Hillary's emails explicitly stated).

Heather Heyer, on the other hand, was the victim of the racist car attack last weekend. My point was that (unlike the Dem admin), Trump not only named and condemned the perpetrators of the violence in this instance, rather than trying to cover it up, but did nothing even close to lying to the mother of the victim at her daughter's funeral.

My point is that what Democrats have done is orders of magnitude worse, and yet the response in our liberal media is 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I use this hypocrisy to show that they don't really care about Presidents downplaying political violence or muddying the waters by blaming the wrong person(s). If they did, Hillary wouldn't have even come close to getting the White House, and Obama wouldn't have been reelected. This is ALL about politics.

I wasn't trying to say that you are ignorant. I noted how your lack of knowledge of the victim of last weekend's violence shows that the focus in the media and by Trump's critics (including you) is to attack Trump. Something horrible happened. Trump talked about it. And yet it seems that people are more offended by Trump's words than the horrific deeds themselves ... at least as exhibited by what they're talking about the most.
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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I see where you're coming from ... Yes I haven't seen anything in the news about Heyers funeral or what happened there. Could you update me.

I know what you mean about the media leveraging large off Trumps controversial comments. Yes we should be more concerned about what caused the whole mess.

It's so strange to hear about the 'liberal' media - because here in Australia Fox has always been uber conservative, CNN too, and I used to hate tuning in to th especially as they'd always be defending stupid stuff Trump did, he has done some incredibly stupid stuff. And I am losing favour with the "oh he's not schooled in politics and public life" bullshit .. because he knows what he's doing, in my opinion. He's not a child, he's been playing with politics even if it hasn't been in the same way as others in public office have.

I am not a fan, if I liked what he did, said and how he handled himself, maybe I would... and I will alter my thinking humbly but assuredly if shown otherwise.
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