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Electoral College, Love it or Hate it
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Is the Electoral College the best way to elect a President?
Yes
58%
 58%  [ 10 ]
No
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
There is a better way
29%
 29%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 17

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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The number one problem with increasing granularity in that manner would be gerrymandering. Both sides would want to redraw districts in such a way that their side benefits.
Fair enough - but is that a big enough risk to prevent such a change to the system?

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
How do you pick 13 people to represent you out of a field of 127? Are you seriously going to research all 127 candidates and find the 13 you like best?
Again agreed - that would be ludicrous. You might as well throw a dart blindfold to make your selections... or more likely, just vote mindlessly along party lines, which rather defeats the purpose of any proposed change.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
No, you need districts so that only a handful of people run for a particular seat and you as a voter choose one of them.
But isn't that what I effectively said? Hashi, are you saying that, even despite the risk of gerrymandering, having individually electing districts - which IMO is just a synonym for constituencies - is a better idea?

Or what am I missing here?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
SerScot wrote:
Cail wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
SerScot wrote:

1) legally abolish gerrymandering


Oh, goodness, yes. Please. That practice should have been outlawed a long time ago.
Yes. Districts should be delineated either by county, parish, or zip code lines.


Or even more daring. Eliminate districts altogether and just do proportional rep by state for the House of Representatives.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. How do you have a state legislature without districts?


State's can have internal districts. Use proportional representation to divee up a given state's delegation in the House of Represenatives. It gives Third parties a real chance at a voice in Congress.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
No, you need districts so that only a handful of people run for a particular seat and you as a voter choose one of them.
But isn't that what I effectively said? Hashi, are you saying that, even despite the risk of gerrymandering, having individually electing districts - which IMO is just a synonym for constituencies - is a better idea?

Or what am I missing here?


Yes, we were saying the same thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://reason.com/archives/2016/11/18/ignore-the-moblong-live-the-electoral-co
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something occured to me. There is a very simple fix to the relative disparity in the EC favoring smaller states. End the freeze on new members in the House of Represenatives.

The HoR was frozen at 438 in 1900 because (I'm not kidding) they couldn't get more desks into the House Chamber. It is a BS excuse in this day and age. We should expand the number of representatives significantly (eliminate gerrymandering). Then the disparity goes back to what it was really supposed to be a slight balm to smaller states relative to larger states.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that wasn't so pathetically sad, it would be hysterical.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Cail's article:

Quote:
It is certainly possible that Obama's unilateral governance over the past eight years had a lot to do with the pushback of three consecutive losses in the Senate and Congress, and the election of Donald Trump.


The "not my president" people are worried that Trump will run his Administration just like Obama did, with "a pen and a phone". As always, it is okay when their guy does it but holy heck the other guy had better not!

Trump wasn't my choice so I am not his cheerleader. That being said, when their worst fears do not come true--Trump doesn't start a nuclear war, no wall gets built, no mass roundups of illegal immigrants--I will gladly remind these people of their overreaction so that they look like petulant fools.

I am never above saying "I told you so".

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The house freeze is based on economic and administration needs.
Originally there was suppose to be 1 representative for every thirty thousand people.
If that would apply today we would have over 10500 members of the House.

Salaries and admin costs would be ... high.
You need a stadium to house the chamber plus all those offices.
Paperwork would be a mess with every rep trying to sponsor a bill.
Speaker of the house would need a masses committee to revue any possible law change or new law.
And talk about gridlock... lets not go there..
With that number , people being people riots could breakout.
I wouldn't want that headache.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot wrote:
Something occured to me. There is a very simple fix to the relative disparity in the EC favoring smaller states. End the freeze on new members in the House of Represenatives.

The HoR was frozen at 438 in 1900 because (I'm not kidding) they couldn't get more desks into the House Chamber. It is a BS excuse in this day and age. We should expand the number of representatives significantly (eliminate gerrymandering). Then the disparity goes back to what it was really supposed to be a slight balm to smaller states relative to larger states.
I've been saying that for a while (as well as advocating for the repeal of the 17th Amendment). But as UR Dead said, we'd have to have more than 30,000 people per Representative for logistical reasons.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we want a representative government... or not? Right now we're at about 800,000 people per representative.

Would it change things, yes. Is that necessarily a bad thing, no.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we would quit relying on Congress to do more than it was meant to do and shift some of the responsibility and power back to State Legislatures then national elections wouldn't be that much of a problem.

I wonder how many people went to vote specifically for or against a particular person, only to be confronted with all those State political races and had no idea about any of those candidates? Can they name their State Representative or State Senator? Can they name their city council member or mayor? Of course they can't--they think that only the election of President matters when, ironically, that election matters the least.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's one of the benefits of having the HOR members represent a smaller number of people. 100,000 is probably reasonable.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
That's one of the benefits of having the HOR members represent a smaller number of people. 100,000 is probably reasonable.


Just pointing out Cail..

235 Million people in the US.(census 2010) At 100k per rep is a HOR of 2350 people

Now at a 100K salary that is 2.35 billion in funding not including each rep's staff.

Look at gridlock with 238 members and the issues from them. Increasing by a a rough factor of 10X is going to cause some real headaches and problems.

Can you imagine the sub-committees upon sub-sub-committes that will form?
That is really increasing the bloat of Washington.

As a I have said.
We don't have a tax problem in the country.. Washington has a spending problem.
Until those reps and Senate member start becoming personally
and fiscally responsible for the pet programs then there will always be a problem.
Maybe it's time for a pay cut of those people. Suffer the "hardship" of it citizens.
Also no federally elected official can receive a Federal pension (as per federal employees - "who have to qualify for their positions") They must go into SSI and collect that as a standard for old age only. (maybe then they would correct SS issues)
Any law(s) that give those elected official special perks must also be extended to the nation unless it is in conflict with State's guidelines.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your argument against better representation is budgetary?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be..

What percentage of your wages would be taken to support a massive
government and would you get anymore benefits from a rep that
represent 100000 people versus one who has 2 million.
There is only so many people who can impress their idea(s) on one person.
After that is becomes a statistic.

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."
(yea I know who said it but it has a truth to it)

A human can only take so much input from his constituents before it goes in one ear and out the other. If you have a 1000 personal friends giving you advice whom would you listen to. That itself is alot of people.
(Of course I don't know people who claim to have a 1000 or more personal friends)

Representing 100K seems to be the same as representing 500K or a million people. Logistic is very daunting but it necessary for strategic planning and idea's to work
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let it be known that I'm a fan of government gridlock. If they can't do anything that means they're not spending our money or taking away more liberties.

With that large of a body, it would be far harder to gerrymander, and it would be more difficult to sway the Body with lobbying and money. Yes, it would cost more, and that would suck. But the advantages sure seem to outweigh that.

Maryland has 6.1 million people and 8 seats in the HoR....That means each one of them "represents" 762,500 people, or more than the population of Baltimore. Maryland is a very diverse state, with three very Blue areas surrounded by a sea of Red. Guess who's not represented in Maryland.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's $200 million, not $2 billion.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to what I've read, there are approx. 219 million US citizens eligible to vote out of a total population of 319 million.

Okay, just looking at representatives per electorate, this gives a figure of 500,000 eligible US voters to one member of the HoR.

Taking Ur Dead's salary figures as read ($100k per year, not counting staff), that'd amount to 20 cents per annum per each eligible US voter... doesn't sound too onerous to me.

For comparative purposes only, the UK's elected parliament comprises 650 seats in the House of Commons. That's against an eligible UK electorate of 46.5 million (out of a total population of 64.1 million). That's a ratio of 71,500 eligible UK voters to each "representative".

Just sayin'...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
It's $200 million, not $2 billion.



your right.... my mental mistake.

in real they make 174,000 - $191,533 a year.
For the past 6 years the Congress has frozen their auto pay raises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaries_of_members_of_the_United_States_Congress


But with the 100K representation that increases the payroll by almost a factor of 4. Some gridlock is good but 100% gridlock is chaos.
They may change the number at some point but when does it become unattainable.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

438 members in the House not 238. Why do the Representatives need Staff in DC and at home?
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