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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Creativity is the one area where some degree of safety still exists from the inexorable encroachment of technology into the work place. As such it behoves those who plan future educational policy to build this into their weighting of the various areas of the curriculum. The arts should not any more be seen as the poor second cousin of the traditionally more respected academic disciplines (medicine, law etc.......), but should form a strong grounding in both development of the potential for creative thinking in the young mind, and as disciplines of further study at higher levels.
But no - we cannot have millions of artists and nothing else, and this is not what I suggest. Simply that a change of educational thrust in this direction would in the alter the way we think, the way we perceive our world, and in its turn, render us better prepared to utilize the increasing proportion of our lives that we will spend on non work related activity.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Zar, I'm wondering how you can not accept the simple fact that nearly half of our workforce isn't working. You are completely ignoring the fact that unemployment has never been higher.

That's simply not true.

Quote:

Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States increased to 62.80 percent in June from 62.70 percent in May of 2017. Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States averaged 63 percent from 1950 until 2017, reaching an all time high of 67.30 percent in January of 2000 and a record low of 58.10 percent in December of 1954.


Given that we've been automating jobs out of existence in all that time, there has been no corresponding net loss of jobs due to automation.

Cail wrote:
A flat tax happens, and over a million people lose their jobs overnight, and they're not just going to go flip burgers. Same argument can be used if the War on Drugs was ended tomorrow.
Neither of those points have anything to do with automation. Neither are likely to happen.

Cail wrote:
"We'll come up with new jobs!" No, we actually haven't and won't.
Of course we've come up with new jobs. That's why the labor participation rate was 58% in 1954 and it's now 62.8% and climbing. Even if you look at the average, we've held steady for almost 70 years. Since we've had automation in all that time, and we've eliminated entire swaths of the labor market (telephone operators, etc), it is a FACT that we've created new kinds of jobs. And since the population was roughly 50 million back then, we've also added to the total number of jobs (in addition to the percentage).

What were you saying about my facts? You've got it backwards: all of your factual statements are utterly wrong.

Now, explain why we can't create jobs in the future. I've asked several times. You don't even attempt to explain the core of your argument. I've shown over and over that we've created new jobs in the past as automation took over old jobs. My argument has evidence. Yours has only conjecture, which you don't even attempt to explain. Why are new jobs impossible?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Cail wrote:
Zar, I'm wondering how you can not accept the simple fact that nearly half of our workforce isn't working. You are completely ignoring the fact that unemployment has never been higher.

That's simply not true.
Dude, read your link. Labor participation rate is right around 62%. That means that 38% of the labor force isn't working. "Nearly half" may have been overselling things, but the fact remains that we currently have nearly 40% unemployment.

Zarathustra wrote:
Quote:

Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States increased to 62.80 percent in June from 62.70 percent in May of 2017. Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States averaged 63 percent from 1950 until 2017, reaching an all time high of 67.30 percent in January of 2000 and a record low of 58.10 percent in December of 1954.


Given that we've been automating jobs out of existence in all that time, there has been no corresponding net loss of jobs due to automation.
Indeed we have. Past performance is not an indicator of future success. The automation we've adapted to up to this point is very different than the types of automation we're getting ready to introduce.

Zarathustra wrote:
Cail wrote:
A flat tax happens, and over a million people lose their jobs overnight, and they're not just going to go flip burgers. Same argument can be used if the War on Drugs was ended tomorrow.
Neither of those points have anything to do with automation. Neither are likely to happen.
Now you're just being obtuse. Automation is simply one factor in the elimination of the need for work. Big picture Zar, open up your eyes.

Zarathustra wrote:
Cail wrote:
"We'll come up with new jobs!" No, we actually haven't and won't.
Of course we've come up with new jobs. That's why the labor participation rate was 58% in 1954 and it's now 62.8% and climbing. Even if you look at the average, we've held steady for almost 70 years. Since we've had automation in all that time, and we've eliminated entire swaths of the labor market (telephone operators, etc), it is a FACT that we've created new kinds of jobs. And since the population was roughly 50 million back then, we've also added to the total number of jobs (in addition to the percentage).
See above. You simply don't understand the conversation.

Zarathustra wrote:
What were you saying about my facts? You've got it backwards: all of your factual statements are utterly wrong.
Ha! Says the guy that keeps thinking magic jobs will be created but won't say what they are, and the guy who ignores what a good chunk of the electorate is voting for (tax reform and drug legalization) because it's inconvenient to his ridiculous position.

Zarathustra wrote:
Now, explain why we can't create jobs in the future. I've asked several times. You don't even attempt to explain the core of your argument. I've shown over and over that we've created new jobs in the past as automation took over old jobs. My argument has evidence. Yours has only conjecture, which you don't even attempt to explain. Why are new jobs impossible?
I never said new jobs were impossible; you made that up in order to beat your chest and claim some sort of victory. I've asked you over and over to let us know what these jobs are. You've utterly failed to come up with a single one. You point to the past, as though that's an indicator of what will happen with the burgeoning new tech that's becoming available to us now.

We absolutely can create jobs in the future. What we can't do is continue to base our economy on the necessity of work, when that necessity no longer exists. If you're a cashier, your job is obsolete right now. If you're an accountant, or you work for an accountant, your job is obsolete the second that meaningful tax reform is enacted.

Keep sticking your head in the sand if it makes you feel any better, but there are large societal issues here that you're either ignorant of or apathetic about.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Dude, read your link. Labor participation rate is right around 62%. That means that 38% of the labor force isn't working. "Nearly half" may have been overselling things, but the fact remains that we currently have nearly 40% unemployment.
A fact that's been true for the last 70 years (or more), so it can't be a new phenomenon related to automation. And given that fact that baby boomers are starting to retire, it's amazing that we've been holding relatively steady.


Quote:
Structural Changes to Participation Rate

From 2006 to 2016, the U.S. civilian labor force participation rate has hovered in the 62 to 67 range, with a fairly consistent decrease in the participation rate since 2009. The decline in the participation rate has been attributed to structural changes and not the overall health of the economy. This structural change in the amount of people actively seeking work has occured due to retiring baby boomers, a decline in working women, and more people deciding to attend college.


http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/participationrate.asp#ixzz4nCCICMnD

And since we've added 10s of millions of people to our population while holding steady on the participation rate, that literally means we've been adding 10s of millions of jobs ... all while automation has increased! This flatly refutes your argument. Not only does automation fail to decrease labor participation rate, it can happen concurrently with a growing job market.

Cail wrote:
Past performance is not an indicator of future success. The automation we've adapted to up to this point is very different than the types of automation we're getting ready to introduce.
Okay, but in what way is it different? ATMs replaced bank tellers (theoretically). Red Box replaces video clerks. U-scan replaces cashiers (theoretically). How is this any different from what you all are predicting? How is automating the phone operators out of existence any different from automating some other job?

Cail wrote:
Now you're just being obtuse. Automation is simply one factor in the elimination of the need for work. Big picture Zar, open up your eyes.
I'm not being obtuse, I'm refusing to let you move the goal posts. No one believes that we're going to overhaul the tax code or end the drug war. I'd like to, but Trump can't even repeal ACA. That's not a certainty like automation. It's off-topic. Drug war cops can focus on other crime ... like immigration enforcement. IRS workers can find work elsewhere, in the private sector, just like politicians who leave the government and go into the private sector. Those skills aren't unique to government work. Accountants do more than taxes. Trump hasn't even mentioned a flat tax, has he? A simplified tax code doesn't mean a flat tax. There will still be plenty of work for accountants. This is a non-issue.

Cail wrote:
Ha! Says the guy that keeps thinking magic jobs will be created but won't say what they are, ...
Jesus, Cail, I've said it over and over: the sectors of the economy that can't be replaced by a robot and have room to grow are service industry jobs, especially those that are considered "luxuries" now but will become more affordable as automation cuts costs for other things. Now, as soon as I name one, you'll say, "But you can't employ millions of people as personal chefs," but that misses the point. It's not any single job that will employ everyone. It's an entire field of service oriented jobs where people want hands-on, face-to-face, personal service.

Do you think the farmer of the 18th century could predict what kind of jobs people would be doing in 200 years? Do you think anyone 50 years ago were telling their kids that network administrators or social media consultants or app designers were possible jobs? The potential to create new fields is UNLIMITED, because it depends on human ingenuity and creativity. It's not fucking magic. It's reality. We've done it over and over.

Cail wrote:

I've asked you over and over to let us know what these jobs are. You've utterly failed to come up with a single one.
Again, that's simply not true. I've talked about personal chefs, pet sitters, specialty butchers, sushi chefs, salesmen, teachers, truck drivers, personal trainers, masseuse, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be something new (which would be impossible for me to predict), but a job market we have already, which most people don't patronize, because it's considered too expensive or unnecessary. But as goods become cheaper (due to automation), more and more of the middle class has historically sought out luxury services that were once only purchased by the rich.

Cail wrote:
If you're a cashier, your job is obsolete right now.
And yet we still have 1000s of them ... people like interacting with people. Maybe they think the cashier is cute. Maybe they don't want to ring their stuff up themselves while a computer tells them over and over to place the item in the bag. I know I prefer a cashier to a U-scan. And that's why we still have cashiers 20 years (or more) after we've had the technology to replace them. Just because a job can be automated doesn't mean that it will be.

Cail wrote:
Keep sticking your head in the sand if it makes you feel any better, but there are large societal issues here that you're either ignorant of or apathetic about.
I've come up with passionate and thoughtful rebuttals for every point you've made. It's (again) simply not true to characterize me as apathetic to these issues, merely because I have a different opinion. I'm optimistic about the future, not ignorant or dismissive.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:


Cail wrote:

I've asked you over and over to let us know what these jobs are. You've utterly failed to come up with a single one.
Again, that's simply not true. I've talked about personal chefs, pet sitters, specialty butchers, sushi chefs, salesmen, teachers, truck drivers, personal trainers, masseuse, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be something new (which would be impossible for me to predict), but a job market we have already, which most people don't patronize, because it's considered too expensive or unnecessary. But as goods become cheaper (due to automation), more and more of the middle class has historically sought out luxury services that were once only purchased by the rich.


gonna have to call bullshit on this one. Even assuming that all these people go into those fields, how the hell to you think they are gonna make enough money from your so called middle class, to eat, little less prosper. And who is your middle class?

and what makes you think trucks won't be automated? There are some driverless cars out there, and they use remote controlled combines to harvest grains now.
Zarathustra wrote:

Cail wrote:
If you're a cashier, your job is obsolete right now.
And yet we still have 1000s of them ... people like interacting with people. Maybe they think the cashier is cute. Maybe they don't want to ring their stuff up themselves while a computer tells them over and over to place the item in the bag. I know I prefer a cashier to a U-scan. And that's why we still have cashiers 20 years (or more) after we've had the technology to replace them. Just because a job can be automated doesn't mean that it will be.

yet we have thousands less than we had. Call centers employ way less Customer no service reps than they did. Don't believe me, call a customer service number and see how long you remain on hold "until the next available representative answers your call".

Zarathustra wrote:

Cail wrote:
Keep sticking your head in the sand if it makes you feel any better, but there are large societal issues here that you're either ignorant of or apathetic about.
I've come up with passionate and thoughtful rebuttals for every point you've made. It's (again) simply not true to characterize me as apathetic to these issues, merely because I have a different opinion. I'm optimistic about the future, not ignorant or dismissive.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zar, RR rebutted your post better and more succinctly than I would have.

The day that it becomes more cost-effective to install self-serve kiosks is the day that the bulk of the service industry will be laid off. Those people are not going to become sushi chefs.

We're talking about the end of the middle class, and the extreme stratification of the country. I realize that this is a big concept, which is probably why you continue to ignore it in favor of calling me ignorant and dismissive, but your lack of interest in our future doesn't change the fact that these are issues we're going to have to face.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that some consumers want a cashierless shopping experience, at least at some stores. According to the article, there is even one test location in Seattle featuring "Amazon Go", a store where there aren't even registers--presumably you pick up the item you want, declare your intent to purchase it, and the store automatically deducts the balance off your card when you signify that you are ready to complete your purchases.

I was watching retro TV commercials last night when an old Exxon ad aired, featuring the full service line where the friendly representatives would fill your gasoline tank, check your tire pressure, check the fluid level in the wiper tank, check to see if you needed oil or brake fluid, clean your windows for you, etc. This ad also featured the new self-service lane if you needed was to put a little gas in the car--it was touted for its convenience and ease of use. Little did those friendly representatives know that only a decade after that ad aired they would no longer exist at all, phased out as all lanes became self-service.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I'm buying an expensive boutique item, I don't want to deal with a salesman or a cashier. 90% of my shopping is online, the other 10% is booze.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Unless I'm buying an expensive boutique item, I don't want to deal with a salesman or a cashier. 90% of my shopping is online, the other 10% is booze.


Well, if you have a problem, please take it up with the friendly machine and leave the flesh and bloods out of it Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:

gonna have to call bullshit on this one. Even assuming that all these people go into those fields, how the hell to you think they are gonna make enough money from your so called middle class, to eat, little less prosper. And who is your middle class?


Every time I surf the web, I see another article that supports my argument:

Dog sitters are such a growing market, that now kennels are using antiquated laws on licensing to shut down the competition.

Quote:
Health Department rules ban anyone from taking money to care for an animal outside a licensed kennel - and the department has warned a popular pet-sitting app that its users are breaking the law.

...

Bacon, a former zookeeper and wildlife researcher, signed up for the app to help make ends meet while he was between jobs, but did enough business that he now makes his living from it full-time.
...
The company has 95,000 pet owners registered in the city, and 9,000 sitters, who brought in $4.1 million over the last year.


Pooch owners often find it cheaper and easier than sending their dog to a kennel, while others prefer to have their pet in someone's home rather than kept in a cage for much of the day, Lapham said. "You [are telling] the middle class you can't own dogs unless you can pop in your Range Rover and drive to Connecticut for a boarding facility," he said.


Why is it so difficult for you guys to imagine things that are already starting to happen?? Clearly, what I'm talking about is not beyond the realm of possibility. Your pessimism and stubbornness is causing you to make some very shaky assumptions that you refuse to let go, even in the face of evidence. I just pulled "pet-sitter" out of my ass, hadn't even read anything about them until now. I figured it was a job that would be robot-proof, because pet owners would prefer a caring, loving human being watching their pet over a hunk of metal. Dogs are social animals. Examples like this really aren't hard to come up with, if your mind remains open.

Clearly, the jobs of the future won't be invented by people like you and Cail. It will require optimists, people who can think outside the box and haven't closed their minds to the endless possibilities of human ingenuity. Your thinking is what's outdated. Not jobs.

Rawedge Rim wrote:

and what makes you think trucks won't be automated?
You didn't read my detailed rebuttal to this point the first time? I was a truck driver! I actually know what I'm talking about here. They do MUCH more than drive. In order to replace a truck driver, you'd need a humanoid robot nearly as advanced as Data from Star Trek. Truck drivers do a safety inspection of the entire truck and trailer, every day, which requires a complete walk around the rig, climbing on and under it, physically (hands on) checking everything from the tires to the air hoses. They perform routine maintenance. They verify that the load is loaded correctly by the forklift guy and that the count matches the invoice. Sometimes they load and unload the cargo by hand. Every trailer that is hooked up requires manually connecting the air hoses for the trailer's brakes (which means getting out of the truck and using your hands), and load-balancing by manually adjusting the rear wheels (including banging on a metal pin with a sledge hammer underneath the trailer).

There is no way you can replace truck drivers with automation, not for another 50-100 years when we have robots like Data. And which do you think will be cheaper? A human driver or a Data android?

Even if truck drivers did nothing else but drive, there's no way we're going to allow a driverless 40 ton vehicle to travel 70 mph in all sorts of weather conditions a few feet away from where we're driving our kids in the next lane. It won't happen.

Rawedge Rim wrote:

yet we have thousands less than we had.
The point is that we can replace them all. Yet we haven't. Obviously, we will never get rid of all the human workers, even in cases where we can. There will always be jobs that robots can't do, or jobs where customers prefer humans. Robots will only allow us to do more, not prevent us from working.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zar, do the math on your example please. Those 9,000 dog walkers that brought in $4.1 million last year averaged a bit over $455 each.

Now explain to me how you maintain a household on that.

And you're dreaming if you think that truck drivers won't be replaced for a hundred years.

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-automated-trucks-labor-20160924/
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to disparage dog-sitting but that sounds like a job that would be totally awesome...if I were 16 and needed summer employment of some sort.

Many people over the decades have dreamed of turning their hobby into an actual career that covers the monthly household expenses or turns into a lucrative career. The sad reality is that 99.9999% of those people wind up having to face reality--your hobby may not be a good career. I would thoroughly enjoy dropping out and trying to turn MtG into something that pays the bills...but that isn't going to happen so I try not to dwell on it too much.

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Not to disparage dog-sitting but that sounds like a job that would be totally awesome...if I were 16 and needed summer employment of some sort.

And that's exactly why Cail kept badgering me to list a specific job of the future ... so he (and others) can make fun of it. I gave evidence of people able to do this job full time and pay their bills, and yet because it's not what you all want to do, you make fun of it. Whatever. This is no longer a debate. I won a long time ago. You can tell because all that's left is mocking. Have fun with that.

Some people might have said that "playing on the computer" is a totally awesome job for a teenager, but I wouldn't be one of them. If you like your job, that's awesome.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Not to disparage dog-sitting but that sounds like a job that would be totally awesome...if I were 16 and needed summer employment of some sort.

And that's exactly why Cail kept badgering me to list a specific job of the future ... so he (and others) can make fun of it. I gave evidence of people able to do this job full time and pay their bills, and yet because it's not what you all want to do, you make fun of it. Whatever. This is no longer a debate. I won a long time ago. You can tell because all that's left is mocking. Have fun with that.
Pointing out that your example is economically unfeasable isn't mocking or making fun, and none of my questions were asked in order to do so.

You've clearly read something that's made a huge impression on your outlook for the future. All I'm trying to do is understand how you arrived at this bizarre position that doesn't make a bit of sense and is pretty much in opposition to everything you've posted over the past decade.

You posted an article about dog walkers making $455/year. I asked the reasonable question about how you could support a household on that. You have no response other than to accuse me of mocking you and claiming victory in the conversation.

Dunno what's going on with you, but your responses and positions in this whole thread have been very out-of-character for you, as you are basically advocating for a post-capitalist/socialist economic system that supports people who no longer can support themselves due to the end of labor.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
It appears that some consumers want a cashierless shopping experience, at least at some stores. According to the article, there is even one test location in Seattle featuring "Amazon Go", a store where there aren't even registers--presumably you pick up the item you want, declare your intent to purchase it, and the store automatically deducts the balance off your card when you signify that you are ready to complete your purchases.



Will be interesting to see how they deal with fraud. Human cashiers catch stuff that would fool a machine. It's amazing what people are coming up with these days.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorus wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
It appears that some consumers want a cashierless shopping experience, at least at some stores. According to the article, there is even one test location in Seattle featuring "Amazon Go", a store where there aren't even registers--presumably you pick up the item you want, declare your intent to purchase it, and the store automatically deducts the balance off your card when you signify that you are ready to complete your purchases.



Will be interesting to see how they deal with fraud. Human cashiers catch stuff that would fool a machine. It's amazing what people are coming up with these days.
You have to wonder though how much employers are losing to employee theft. Machines don't steal.


Rawedge Rim wrote:
Cail wrote:
Unless I'm buying an expensive boutique item, I don't want to deal with a salesman or a cashier. 90% of my shopping is online, the other 10% is booze.


Well, if you have a problem, please take it up with the friendly machine and leave the flesh and bloods out of it Twisted Evil
No problem. I bought a keyboard case for my iPad online 2 years ago. A year later, it stopped working. I went on the company's website, filled out a form, printed out a return label, and then went on UPS's site to schedule a pickup. Three days later my new case was at my door. The replacement died two months ago, and I did the same thing again. There is utterly no need for me to speak to anyone when there's a problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
You have to wonder though how much employers are losing to employee theft. Machines don't steal.


I used to do LP for a company with a zero-tolerance policy. Most of the offenses that got people fired were very, very petty. It does add up though. A depressingly high percentage of people will steal if they think they will get away with it. That goes for external theft as well - fewer human employees in an establishment mean fewer eyes keeping things honest.

I don't really have any strong opinions against the idea of robot cashiers - I've been a cashier and it can be a pretty lousy job. It's just in my nature to point out the flaws that will come with the territory.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorus wrote:

Will be interesting to see how they deal with fraud. Human cashiers catch stuff that would fool a machine. It's amazing what people are coming up with these days.


I am uncertain how they are handling that aspect but I have no doubt they have some sort of system in place.

***************

There might be a handful of people who are able to make a decent living as some sort of dog-sitter and/or dog-walker but there won't be more than a handful of such people in any large metropolitan area.

You can name any sort of hobby and you can find at least a handful of people who make money at it--there are people whose full-time job is making money on the second-hand market buying and selling Magic or Pokemon cards--but those hobby/jobs are not going to pay the bills for most people who want to try that method of making a living.

There is a clear difference between pessimism and realism. The pessimist states "the glass is half empty" because they see only what is missing; the realist says "the glass is half empty" because if you consider the question "how full is the glass?" is relation to how much water is in the glass then it is a statement of fact. You (meaning Z) are approaching the question of future jobs from an optimistic point of view (over-accentuating the positives) while the rest of us are approaching it from a realistic point of view (seeing things as they are, not as we would like them to be).

On a completely unrelated note, if you ask topologists "is the glass half-empty or half-full?" they will tell you "neither--the water is on the outside of the glass". If you think about the shape of a glass from a topological point of view, that assessment would be correct--the intersection of the sets "the water" and "the glass" is the null set, so the set "the water" is a subset of the exterior of "the glass".

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Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


...because if you consider the question "how full is the glass?" is relation to how much water is in the glass then it is a statement of fact.


Surely by those standards, half-full would be equally factual?

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:

Surely by those standards, half-full would be equally factual?

--A


Yes, but I was using "the glass is half empty" as the default phrase being spoken because the pessimist would never say "the glass is half full".

From now on, my take on that perception question will be the one I listed--neither, because the water is on the outside of the glass. This will give me sufficient satisfaction as the bewildered person asking the question tries to figure out what the heck I am talking about. The really great thing is that my answer is just as factually true as the others.

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Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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