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Jesus' Ground-Breaking Concept?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Quote:
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?"-The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.


Wasn't blessed by the love of god, love of god had caused him to be blessed.

--A


yet that could be read as "God's love blessed Abu"
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What it actually says is "love of God" blessed Ben Adhem's name.

(However, blessing a person's name is synonymous with blessing a person, in those times.)

The "love of God" comes from Ben Adhem himself. Not God. And it arises when one loves his fellow men (or claims to).

In short, Ben blessed himself.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmm.........? Okaaay.

Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
What it actually says is "love of God" blessed Ben Adhem's name.

(However, blessing a person's name is synonymous with blessing a person, in those times.)

The "love of God" comes from Ben Adhem himself. Not God. And it arises when one loves his fellow men (or claims to).

In short, Ben blessed himself.


Quote:
and showed the names of those whom love of God had blessed


not exactly the same, but a small quibble.

However, according to the Jewish and Christian tradition, and I suspect the Muslim tradition also; you can love your fellow man all you want, but if you don't love God, then you have cut yourself off from God and He will reject you.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is my problem with the whole idea. Very Happy

--A
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Which is my problem with the whole idea. Very Happy

--A


It's not like it's in the fine print.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Doesn't make it right. Very Happy

--A
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
LOL Doesn't make it right. Very Happy

--A


explain how it's not right? Question
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought the whole point of Christianity was to love one another. Turns out, doesn't matter how much you love one another, if you don't worship Jesus. On the other hand, worship Jesus, and you can get away without loving one another.

I know which seems more important to me...

--A
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Thought the whole point of Christianity was to love one another. Turns out, doesn't matter how much you love one another, if you don't worship Jesus. On the other hand, worship Jesus, and you can get away without loving one another.

I know which seems more important to me...

--A


Not exactly.

Quote:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." 32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions


Quote:
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.


So the truth is that while one could love their fellow man and not love God; one cannot love God without also loving their fellow man.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Rawedge Rim wrote:
So the truth is that while one could love their fellow man and not love God; one cannot love God without also loving their fellow man.


Such an asymmetric relation seems very foreign to Christianity. If one loves, then one loves. Full stop.

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers and all that jazz.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

Rawedge Rim wrote:
So the truth is that while one could love their fellow man and not love God; one cannot love God without also loving their fellow man.


Such an asymmetric relation seems very foreign to Christianity. If one loves, then one loves. Full stop.

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers and all that jazz.


keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
So the truth is that while one could love their fellow man and not love God; one cannot love God without also loving their fellow man.


Such an asymmetric relation seems very foreign to Christianity. If one loves, then one loves. Full stop.

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers and all that jazz.


keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple


I would counter by saying that there is no order of importance and that the two are indissociable. Admittedly, I'm coming at it from the POV of Catholic dogmatics, and thus, any reading of Scripture which would would locate a precedence of one over the other is a gravely deficient reading. But YMMV.

That being said, it seems to me that your original quote trades on an equivocal use of the word "love". Your use of "love" in the second instance (love of God) seems to be understood as "true love" whereas in the first instance, it is only understood as a simulacrum of love.

But if "love" is taken in a univocal sense, then one can't (truly) love the brethren without also (even implicitly) loving God.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I could say that the apparent priority of the love of God which you locate in Luke 14:26 is equally balanced by the apparent priority of love of the brethren in Matt 5:23-24.

Quote:
Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great thing about the Bible is that, whatever you believe, there's something in it that defends your position. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
So the truth is that while one could love their fellow man and not love God; one cannot love God without also loving their fellow man.


Such an asymmetric relation seems very foreign to Christianity. If one loves, then one loves. Full stop.

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers and all that jazz.


keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple


I would counter by saying that there is no order of importance and that the two are indissociable. Admittedly, I'm coming at it from the POV of Catholic dogmatics, and thus, any reading of Scripture which would would locate a precedence of one over the other is a gravely deficient reading. But YMMV.

That being said, it seems to me that your original quote trades on an equivocal use of the word "love". Your use of "love" in the second instance (love of God) seems to be understood as "true love" whereas in the first instance, it is only understood as a simulacrum of love.

But if "love" is taken in a univocal sense, then one can't (truly) love the brethren without also (even implicitly) loving God.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I could say that the apparent priority of the love of God which you locate in Luke 14:26 is equally balanced by the apparent priority of love of the brethren in Matt 5:23-24.

Quote:
Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.


Even debating from a Catholic view point, the order is God first, all else next.

When we pray the "Our Father" it starts by acknowledging God.

The "Ten Commandments" start out with the acknowledgement of:

1. "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no strange gods before me."
2. "You shall not take the Lords name in vain."
3. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"


So the first three start by acknowledging who is more important. Afterwards it sorta goes down the line parents then everyone else.

then in Mark, which I've referenced a few times:

Quote:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."


again we see the precedence: God first, all else second. Now loving your fellow man comes in a close second, but not at the exclusion of the first.

And numerous times Jesus stated that that God was the priority:

John 3-16
Mathew 19, 24-28
Acts 16, 29-31

in all of these cases they didn't say, "Just love your fellow man and you'll be fine".

What I will say, as I said earlier; if one truly loves God, then one cannot help but love their fellow man. And God does call us to love our fellow man, but we are also warned to love God more than our fellow man, or even our closest relatives.
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Rawedge Rim wrote:
[...]

then in Mark, which I've referenced a few times:

Quote:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

[...]


Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.

But like I said, YMMV.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that's probably what the poem was suggesting...by loving your neighbour, you automatically love god, whether you intend to or not.

But that sorta leaves the whole "accept Jesus as your saviour" thing hanging, doesn't it? In fact, I don't recall Jesus ever saying people had to worship him. So where did that come from? Nicaea?

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
I think that's probably what the poem was suggesting...by loving your neighbour, you automatically love god, whether you intend to or not.

But that sorta leaves the whole "accept Jesus as your saviour" thing hanging, doesn't it? In fact, I don't recall Jesus ever saying people had to worship him. So where did that come from? Nicaea?

--A


Quote:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, there it is. Very Happy Sorry guys, if good works aren't enough, then I'm out of it. Very Happy

--A
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Avatar wrote:
Ah, there it is. Very Happy Sorry guys, if good works aren't enough, then I'm out of it. Very Happy


Isn't that moving the goalposts, though? Cuz I thought that you were asking whether or not love is enough.
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