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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing about Charlottesville?

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Nothing about Charlottesville?

--A


Well lets see. A group wanted to protest a removal of a statue of R.E. Lee. So some racist groups decided to piggy back onto that. Then there was a counter protest. Same thing happened on the other side, and groups piggy backed onto the counter protest. Groups were bused in from both sides. The cops did little to keep things under control. Violence erupted. People got killed.

Outside of that, in Durham NC a group pulled down a confederate statue, destroying it.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Charlottesville ... it shouldn't surprise me how quickly people turned moral outrage into political opportunism. People seem more pissed about Trump's statements than a racist plowing into a crowd with his car.

Here's my take: one group got a permit to hold a lawful assembly to express their Constitutional right of free speech. That speech was not politically correct or popular, therefore the Left tried to shut them down, including intimidation and violent tactics. They succeeded in stopping speech they don't like. The assembly was declared "unlawful" before the speakers could even make it to the podium. There was violence ON BOTH SIDES, which is why it was entirely appropriate for Trump to say, "many sides." I don't understand why the fascists who used violence and intimidation to stop free speech were expected to get a free pass. What the hell is wrong with condemning ALL violence, instead of just the one that makes your political rivals look bad (via guilt by association)??

Masses of people acted violently. Only one man acted murderously. When one Black Lives Matter member assassinates Dallas police, we're warned not to generalize his actions to all BLM members. When one (or 1000s) of Muslims commit terrorism, we're warned not to generalize to all of Islam. When one Bernie Sanders activist tries to assassinate Republican Congressmen, we're warned not to generalize to all Sanders supporters. But when it comes to one racist prick killing people? Not only are we "allowed" to generalize to all KKK, and spread that blame to all of the Right, and even blame Trump for it, we're not even allowed to mention or condemn the violence from the other side that was caught on camera.

I've never seen such transparent, blatant hypocrisy and opportunism. I'm not even sure that the liberal media can see it in their own actions. I think they believe their cause is so righteous, it's impossible for them to be wrong.

The "peaceful" counter-protesters came armed for battle. They had helmets, shields, and weapons. When the guy drove into the crowd, a dozen of these "peaceful" counter-protesters swarmed his car and began breaking his windows with clubs. They were on him in seconds, ready to engage in vigilante justice. For all they knew, the driver could have had a heart attack or seizure and done this by accident. They didn't care. They wanted blood.

Now, none of this excuses the violence from the Right. And of course racism is wrong. However, they have the Constitutional right to voice their opinion. If the Left didn't want to deny them this right, there would not have been any violence whatsoever.

Let people speak. And let's all denounce the anti-freedom fascists on the Left while we're denouncing racism on the Right. One is Constitutionally protected ... the other is not.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread split to make its own new--and highly relevant and timely--topic.

*************

If you weren't from Charlottesville or the surrounding communities then you didn't have any business being in Charlottesville (unless you happened to be there on vacation or a similar routine activity). If you went there specifically to attend a protest or a counter-protest then you are part of the problem. It's their statue--if they want to decommission it and/or remove it then they have the right to do so without any outsider input. There isn't any reason to have statues of Civil War figures on either side--how is it logical to memorialize the fact that we were brutally killing each other 156 years ago? If you want to have historical reminders then put up text-based plaques which denote "this happened here on such-and-such date". The past happened and it cannot be changed but people are getting far too upset over things *right now* and if they don't deescalate then these clashes are going to get worse.

On a tangentially-related topic, is the extreme alt-right mindset ingrained into people as children, learning it from their parents, or do they pick it up from others by browsing the Internet? If they didn't learn it as a child, then how does someone go from being a rational, logical person to being someone with a very narrow view and highly confrontational view of the world? (The presumption here is that they were logical to begin with.) I see the phrase "disaffected young white male" applied to these people (even though, presumably, some of them must be females) but what makes them so disaffected? Poor job prospects? Low income? They think there is no future where they are currently living? This doesn't make any sense because they are living in a country where they are able to move to where they can find a better future. If all those Okies and Arkies could do it during the Dust Bowl 30s, many of whom were worse off than these people, then they can find a better life that doesn't include hatred. No one is holding them back or holding them down except themselves.

The ones who were able to travel halfway across the country just so they could "defend" a statue they probably had never seen before, though, what is their excuse? "Taking down the statue is an affront to white culture", they may say. How is that possible? I am white and I didn't realize that some POS statue in Virginia was my "culture". The fact that they have the time and money to travel all that way means they can't be that disaffected so they must have some other reason for being there. Just to get into someone else's face and be allowed to get away with it? They can do that in their home town by going to a bar and starting a fight.

Bottom line, if your side was the side who had a person drive a car into a crowd of people then your side is wrong and needs to back down first.

Now...on to Durham, where protesters took matters into their own hands and pulled down a statue. Those protesters are in the wrong--you can't just go around pulling down statues with which you disagree because that is destruction of public property, which is a crime. What will happen now is that folks on the other side--the ones who want to defend Confederate monuments that they have never seen before--are going to identify "high profile" monuments and will dispatch people to try and guard them. When the protesters show up at that location more violence will ensue. Congratulations, dumbasses--you are both exacerbating the problem, overshadowing that poor young woman's death.

Zarathustra does raise a valid point, though. One guy shooting at police in Dallas = "not all BLM people" but one guy running over a woman = "all right-wingers are nazis"? *bzzt* So sorry, thank you for playing. False equivalency is a logical fallacy--you can't have it both ways.

Meanwhile, in Dallas, the [http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/08/14/dallas-group-forms-to-protect-confederate-monuments/]Sons of Confederate Veterans and Buffalo Soldier historians are working together to preserve Confederate monuments/memorials[/url]...and some of the people working to preserve them are black, including one former Dallas City council member.

If all Confederate monuments and memorials were removed today, then the only method people would have of learning about that time in history would be through books. Books are easier to edit and rewrite than memorials are. Just saying.

Final thought for now: the next confrontation will be worse than Charlottesville, because now both sides will be expecting violence and will show up prepared for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This guy just resigned from the Virginia chapter of the ACLU because apparently he thinks that white supremacists do not deserve equal representation under the law.

Quote:
A board member of the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union has resigned in the wake of this weekend's white supremacist violence in Charlottesville. Waldo Jaquith tweeted, "I just resigned from the ACLU of Virginia board. What's legal and what's right are sometimes different. I won't be a fig leaf for Nazis." Ahead of this weekend's white supremacist rally, the ACLU represented rally organizer Jason Kessler on free speech grounds in a case against the city of Charlottesville, which was trying to revoke the permit for the event.


I am not a fan of white supremacists, either, but either the law covers everyone equally, even those with whom we disagree, or it covers no one.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Bottom line, if your side was the side who had a person drive a car into a crowd of people then your side is wrong and needs to back down first.

Zarathustra does raise a valid point, though. One guy shooting at police in Dallas = "not all BLM people" but one guy running over a woman = "all right-wingers are nazis"? *bzzt* So sorry, thank you for playing. False equivalency is a logical fallacy--you can't have it both ways.

But aren't you trying to have it both ways with these two statements?

I think that people believe that since there is largely a consensus against racism, that it's okay to forget about logic when dealing with racists. It's okay, for instance, to generalize from one person to a group and use guilt-by-association as long as you consider yourself morally superior to that group.

However, as soon as we point out that Islam is a misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic, bigoted religion, we're shouted down for being Islamophobes, and not allowed the same kind of logic-defying morally superiority.

Not everyone joins these groups because they hate other races. Many of them join because they are tired of their race being singled out as the only race that has no right advocating for itself. You can have Black Congressional Caucus ... try doing that if you're white. You can say "black lives matter," but trying saying that all lives matter (including whites) and you have to issue a public apology! By the decree of the multiculturalists, we must respect all other backward cultures on the planet (no matter how racist, bigoted, and exclusionary they are), except our own, which is the only one we're allowed to condemn. In fact, if we fail to condemn white culture for its sins, we're guilty of racism--even though our culture led the way in eliminated things like slavery and sexism (which every culture has had).

I am not defending the KKK. But you can't say that just because someone was present in Charlottesville to protest the removal of a statue that they are therefore racist. Maybe they see it as an issue of resisting reverse racism.

As a white male, I can certainly sympathize with the frustration in being made to feel like I have to apologize for what I am. I reject "feminism" which is really just anti-male, and I reject "social justice" which really just anti-white. There are legitimate forms of both, but they are coopted by people who hate while decrying hate. I think ceding ground to the fascists out of fear of appearing racist is exactly the intimidation tactic they are pushing with their political correct agenda. Racism is being coopted for purely partisan reasons. It's an attack on the Right, plain and simple. The Left wants to equate right = racism, so that an entire political philosophy must cower in shame and be equated with 'micro-aggression.' Merely leaning to the Right has become defined as "threatening." Ideas are now equated with violence ... which is why they think they can use violence to shut people up.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of things

Regardless of when it happened, the Civil war happened and there are monuments that remind us of this time. What good is it doing to continue to remove these? Will it make black lives better? Will it make whites sleep better at night? Most people drive by these and dont think twice about them.

Where does it stop? So we tear down all reminders of the Civil War. Any and all statues and memorials. And then? Do they tear down the Jefferson memorial because he was a slaveholder that fathered children of slaves and then refused to recognize them as legitimate? Again where does it end? Are we going to sterilize our society?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:

Regardless of when it happened, the Civil war happened and there are monuments that remind us of this time. What good is it doing to continue to remove these? Will it make black lives better? Will it make whites sleep better at night? Most people drive by these and dont think twice about them.


"Most people" in these areas still don't have the political power to get them removed.
Probably not until the current elder white generation dies off.

What is the purpose of a statue though? It's to honor something. "honor" is respect and esteem. Why is anyone anywhere honoring slavery on public land?
Why don't they have Nazi statues in Germany? Because they know it's batshit crazy and they weren't allowed too from the moment they were occupied.
Why do we have statues in the southern states that honor slavery? Because the confederate losers maintained political control shortly after the war and wanted to rewrite history.
I'm amazed that these statues are still in place.
Don't destroy them, they are pieces of art that have historical and sentimental value. Auction them off or donate them to a privately funded facility/location.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

What is the purpose of a statue though? It's to honor something. "honor" is respect and esteem. Why is anyone anywhere honoring slavery on public land?
Why don't they have Nazi statues in Germany? Because they know it's batshit crazy and they weren't allowed too from the moment they were occupied.
Why do we have statues in the southern states that honor slavery? Because the confederate losers maintained political control shortly after the war and wanted to rewrite history.
I'm amazed that these statues are still in place.
Don't destroy them, they are pieces of art that have historical and sentimental value. Auction them off or donate them to a privately funded facility/location.


I think we're all about the same age here. I remember being told in high school that to think the Civil War was mainly about slavery is to fall prey to simplistic explanations and modern guilt. It was actually much more complex at the time, involving the issue of states rights, the overreach of the federal government, and the fact that most people who fought had no stake in slavery whatsoever, since they weren't slave owners. In fact, slavery would have ended without the Civil War because of the technological change in our mode of production.

So it's strange to hear all those subtleties swept under the rug nowadays, and slavery/racism is the ONLY issue relevant to the Civil War. I see this even in people who were (I assume) educated prior to the modern PC revisionism.

I'm bewildered by the lack of nuance and depth in those who think they hold the moral high ground. Is there no place for historical fact in this discussion?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted this a couple of years ago, but its just as true today. People that are all bent out of shape about these statues and memorials forget that it was this that brought our country together after the war and kept this war from continuing for many more years.

SoulBiter wrote:
This was written in 1860. Not charging the south was well thought out. It was not a quick or easy decision. There were people calling for mass punishments including hanging of anyone that was a part of this war or party to helping in it. But the US govt decided that to do so would keep the war going for many more years because (regardless of Lee surrendering) who would choose to surrender knowing they would be put to death. Thus seeding the war as a war to the death rather than defeat. Afterwards they were looking for the best ways to show mercy to their brothers and sisters that only a few years ago were their friends and companions. Also the North hands were not umblemished by the things the South was going to war over and the things that happened during the war. The North also capitalized on slavery and had really only recently outlawed it. The North also starved and killed prisoners, breaking their own rules of war.
Then there needed to be a way to unite the country. How better to do so than by showing mercy and to bring the South back in as brothers.
All of that being said. The decisions were deliberately merciful.

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THE South, by plunging the nation into this horrid War, committed the great crime of the age. The North, under the persistent urgency of press and pulpit to punish the South for treason, is in danger of committing the mean crime of the age. Lips and pen so uninfluential as mine, can do but little to avert it. What, however, they can do to this end they must do. And, then, if this mean crime shall be committed, I shall, at least, have the consolation of knowing that I am free from all responsibility for it. Moreover, the little that I and the much that you can do to avert this danger must be done quickly for the work of trying prisoners of war for treason is already begun.

All over the North there is clamor for the blood of the leading rebels, whom we have captured, and whom we may yet capture. For one, I have no sympathy with this clamor. When the South finally and fully submits, let that be the end of all bloodshed, and indeed of all punishment. In saying this I, of course, have no reference to the assassination of our beloved President, nor to the starvation and murder of prisoners. Let all merited punishment fall upon those, who are guilty of these infamous and infernal crimes. The law of war affords them no protection.

My position is simply, that there shall be no punishment of the South for the Rebellion - or, to use another walready suffered quite enough - not because her property and people are wasted, and she has become little better than one desolation. I say it, not because the safety of the North calls for no more suffering of the South, and that no valuable interest at the North can be made more secure by the further suffering of the South. I say it, not because the South has not been guilty of treason - for she has been. But I say that the South should not be punished for treason, because we agreed that she should not be. We came, in effect, into this agreement by consenting, reluctantly it is true, to have our War with her conducted according to the law of war - by which I mean the law of international war. That we consented to have our war so conducted is indisputable. We followed other nations, and recognized in the South the rights of a belligerent. The Supreme Court of the United States were unanimous in recognizing them. We entered upon, and continued in, an exchange of prisoners with her. Innumerable have been our truces with her: and, formally as well as informally, we have negotiated with her for Peace. On one occasion we recognized her de facto nationality, and its outgrowing rights and dignity, by making even the President of the United States and the Secretary of State our Commissioners of Peace. Nor did they stand back to have hers come to them, humbly and suingly. On the contrary, our Commissioners honored hers by going more than half-way to meet them. All this, and other things, including especially our blockade of the Southern ports, prove, beyond controversy, that we consented to conduct the War according to the law of war - for it is only under the law of war that these things can be. But our agreement thus to conduct the war was our waiver of all right, our surrender of all claim, to punish the South for treason - was, indeed, our virtual agreement not to punish her for it. This is so from the simple fact, that, under the law of war, there is no treason. I might rest here for already I have proved my case. Already I have proved that we agreed to bring the War under the law of war: and whether it was proper or improper in us to do so, the agreement nevertheless must stand. I will, however, proceed to show that it was proper to do so.


Quote:
One thing more in this connection. As it was the pro-slavery spirit which prompted the South to avail herself of what she deemed to be her constitutional right of Secession, and as the North is but little if any less responsible than the South for this spirit, so here is another reason why the North should be more reluctant than eager to punish her for Secession. Then, too, there is the crime of starving and murdering prisoners - a crime that our Government must not fail to punish. For that also the North has a share of responsibility, since that also came from the pro-slavery spirit. Yes, from this spirit came the monstrous crime which finds no precedent and no countenance in modern Christendom - from this spirit, which, denying all rights to the black race, can easily deny, whosesoever rights stand in its way. I have already substantially said, that the North is scarcely less responsible than the South for the generation and growth of this infernal spirit. The North has sought as earnestly as the South to serve herself of Slavery. She as well as the South has ever maintained that the nation is bound by her organic law to uphold slavery. Politically, ecclesiastically, commercially,. socially, she has upheld slavery. For the North then to complain (and this she cannot do too deeply or too constantly,) of this starving and murdering of prisoners, is to complain of what, to no small extent, she is herself responsible for. And so, too, by the way, it is of what is in part her own work that she complains when she complains of the Rebellion - the Rebellion itself having bean prompted by the pro-slavery spirit, and the North and the South having a common responsibility for that spirit. The crimes of slavery in this land are the crimes of the North as well as of the South. Therefore, for the North to affect horror at these crimes, and to hasten to punish them, as if she were entirely innocent of them, is a piece of hypocrisy well illustrated by that of the adulteress, who "eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith I have done no wickedness." The one duty of the North, which just now is above any and all her other duties, is to humble herself by the side of the South in a common repentance for common sins. But if she goes to punishing the South for the Rebellion, she will lose all inclination to this duty - ay, and all sense of it. The most effectual of all ways for making ourselves feel morally whole, and for attaining to the greatest heights of self-complacency, is to fall upon others for the sins of which we are ourselves guilty.

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Eli: Dammit!
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Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.unapologeticallyamerican.com/hypocrisy-thy-name-is/
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, some good points all round.

Interestingly, I was going to post my question originally in the "President Trump" thread, but the damn thing won't let me post anything...keep getting the 406 error, even when I just try to post "test."

Somebody else please see if they can post to it?

The reason was because Trump's reaction has been getting so much grief, so I was interested to see the article Cail posted addressing that.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Op ed from Tucker Carlson. His points pretty much mirror mine


Tucker Carlson: If we want to erase the past, we must prepare for the consequences

Quote:
Tucker: If we erase the past, prepare for the consequences
One thing President Trump said Tuesday deserves more attention than it will likely get.


On Monday a mob torn down a civil war soldier's memorial in Durham, North Carolina. Police stood idly by and liberals across the country applauded it. Which statues are next, the president asked today, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson?

It's not a joke. Suddenly it's a serious question.

Thomas Jefferson indisputably was a great man. He was the author of the Declaration of Independence. Founder of the University of Virginia and maybe, most importantly, the greatest thinker in American political history.

All of us live in his shadow. Unfortunately, however, Jefferson was also a slave holder. That's real. It's a moral taint. We ought to remember it.

But to the fanatics on the left it means that Jefferson must be purged from public memory forever. The demands are already coming that we do that.


In 2015, the students at the University of Missouri demanded the removal of a Jefferson statue. Two years ago, on CNN, anchor Ashleigh Banfield suggested the Jefferson Memorial in Washington might have to go. Needless to say there is literally no limit when you start thinking like this.

Last year, hundreds of activists in New York demanded the statue of Theodore Roosevelt at the American National History Museum be dismantled. They argued that Roosevelt was a racist.

That's the standard. Nobody is safe.

Watch out Abraham Lincoln. You're next.

Now, to be clear, as if it's necessary, slavery is evil. If you believe in the rights of the individual, it's actually hard to think of anything worse than slavery.

But let's be honest. Up until 150 years ago when a group of brave Americans fought and died to finally put an end to it, slavery was the rule, rather than the exception around the world. And had been for thousands of years, sadly.

Plato owned saves, so did Mohammed -- peace be upon him.

Many African tribes held slaves and sold them. The Aztecs did, too. Before he liberated Latin America, Simon Bolivar owned slaves.

Slave-holding was so common among the North American Indians that the Cherokee brought their slaves with them on the Trail of Tears. And it wasn't something they learned from European settlers.

Indians were holding and trading slaves when Christopher Columbus arrived. And by the way, he owned slaves, too.

None of this is a defense of the atrocity of human bondage. And it is an atrocity.

The point however is that if we are going to judge the past by the standards of the present. If we are going to reduce a person's life to the single worst thing he ever participated in, we had better be prepared for the consequences of that. And here's why: Forty one of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence held slaves.

James Madison, the father of the Constitution had a plantation full of slaves.

George Mason, the father of the Bill of Rights also owned slaves, unfortunately. But does that make what they wrote illegitimate?

If these men were simply racist villains, and that's all they were, then the society they created is as evil as they were. There is no reason to respect its traditions or uphold its laws.

The First Amendment, for example, the right to speak freely -- For hundreds of years Americans have revered it. Now, the left dismisses it as the work of white supremacist slave holders. It is worthless, they tell us. It must go.

It is now routine to hear liberals claim that hate speech, whatever that is, isn't protected by the First Amendment. Though of course the whole point of the First Amendment is to protect speech that offends people.

It's a statement of shocking ignorance and yet it is now common.

CNN's Chris Cuomo said it. He is supposedly a lawyer.

That Pomona College in California, students there are claiming that free speech is, "a tool appropriated by hegemonic institutions."

Whatever that means. They say, the right of free expression should only apply to certain racial groups.

But that's not racist because as you know there is no racism on the left.

They are just sincere people concern about hate.

There is actually a vitally important debate going on in the country right now. And it's not about statues or even the alt-right antifa, it's about American institutions and whether they are worth preserving.

Radicals on the left want to tear it all down as they did the statue in Durham Tuesday.

Equality under the law.

Protections for the individual against the mob.
The absolute right to say and believe anything you choose.

Those will be gone. Replaced by something darker and more rigidly conformist.

Is that a country you want to live in?

If it's not, now is the time to speak up. elites are refusing to. They are too afraid.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:


I'm bewildered by the lack of nuance and depth in those who think they hold the moral high ground. Is

there no place for historical fact in this discussion?


Ok, lets stick to the Lee statue in Charlottesville.
I found this article that summed up my feelings pretty well. The Lee quotes are accurate, I checked.

(It also had more about the protest but I didn't copy that, just the info about Lee and the statue.)
Is this the "history" you want displayed on the public square?
That black Americans with a family history with slavery have to see when they walk by?
What nuance am I missing?

******************
It was commissioned exactly 100 years ago, a gift to the city from a local philanthropist, to honor

his parents with a physical incarnation of Southern ideals.
The statue stands 26-feet tall, despite its oddly small pedestal. "Let it stay that way," urged a

speaker at its dedication. "The planet as a pedestal would be too small for Robert Edward Lee." It was

unveiled in 1924, as the conventions of the Confederate Veterans and Sons of Confederate Veterans met,

with "the greatest procession that ever threaded its way through the streets of Charlottesville." The

Boy Scouts policed the route; the National Guard and governor marched; the president, board, faculty,

and students of the university joined in. The man who introduced the ceremonies praised the "deathless

devotion" of the veterans, who had fought "at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg," and now worked "to

keep the record of Confederate heroism free from the stain of calumny!"

It was less a dedication than a canonization. The master of ceremonies called Lee "the greatest man

who ever lived." The president of Washington and Lee proclaimed him "a Christian saint." Lee, he

explained, embodied "the moral greatness of the Old South," with its "unusual combination of manly

courage and womanly tenderness, its habitual tenderness toward the weak and helpless." (When three

slaves escaped, Lee had them tied to posts and whipped-50 lashes for the men, 20 for the woman-and

then had their backs washed with stinging brine.)

His defenders today insist that Lee's heroism lay not least in his laying down his sword when the war

was done, deciding to "promote harmony once he recognized defeat." The speakers at the dedication

likewise stressed Lee's role as a peacemaker; one went so far as to imagine the statute depicted "not

the lurid splendor of the battlefield," but instead, Lee riding to Lexington to begin his tenure as a

university president.

Yet this is not what the statue depicts. Not this one, nor the others. Where are the statues of Lee

seated at Appomattox, signing the terms of that surrender? Where are the marbles and bronzes of Lee

the college president, wearing civilian clothes, ensconced behind a desk piled high with paperwork?

Why is this peacemaker always immortalized girded for war?

Perhaps it's because this, too, is largely myth, as my colleague Adam Serwer has so ably documented.

Grant excoriated Lee for "setting an example of forced acquiescence so grudging and pernicious in its

effects as to be hardly realized." And the reconciliation he offered was between whites-it pointedly

excluded those he had held as property, whose freedom the war secured, but whose equality he bitterly

contested.

Lee himself, after the war, encouraged a friend to banish the 90 newly freed women, children, and old

men working on his plantation. The government could pay for their care, Lee advised; better to replace

them with white labor. "I have always observed that wherever you find the negro, everything is going

down around him, and wherever you find a white man, you see everything around him improving." That is

the harmony Lee promoted.

But the Lee memorialized in Charlottesville isn't even the conciliator of myth. He's attired in

uniform, riding his horse. He's the general who took an invading army north into Pennsylvania in 1863,

in defense of a slave society. And not merely in the abstract. Lee's army was ordered to respect white

property, but chose to regard the blacks it encountered as contraband-to be seized and returned to the

South, whether born free, manumitted, or escaped. The army seized scores of their fellow Americans as

slaves, actions sanctioned at the highest level of command; it took as many as a thousand back to

Virginia. Those actions are among the "calumnies" that speakers at the statue's dedication praised the

veterans of Gettysburg for contesting.

"Some of the colored people who were raised here were taken along," wrote Rachel Cormany in

Chambersburg. "I sat on the front step as they were driven by just as we would drive cattle." Women,

children, and infants alike were marched off to slavery. Philip Schaff, a prominent theologian,

watched as Lee's army seized neighbors born and raised in the town. "One, Sam Brooks, split many a

cord of wood for me." He appealed to the conscience of one of their captors; he insisted he felt

"comfortable," because they were merely reclaiming stolen property.

Lee's army, retreating in defeat, released some, but most were hauled South to the auction block. For

the crime of refusing to cross back to Virginia, one boy was horribly mutilated, doused in turpentine,

his genitals sliced off, and left to die in a barn by his Confederate captors. If there is no evidence

that Lee, the living embodiment of womanly tenderness, sanctioned such crimes, neither is there

evidence he acted to stop them. Nor was the Gettysburg campaign an anomaly; slave raids were a

persistent feature of Confederate campaigns out of Virginia. At the Battle of the Crater, Lee's army

slaughtered black prisoners; one soldier lamented that some survived because "we could not kill them

as fast as they [passed] us." This is what the uniform Lee wore represented; this is what the army he

commanded did; this is the pose in which he is immortalized in the center of Charlottesville.

*****************
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump doesn't back down to PC pressure to ignore the violence on the Left.

No other Republican has the balls to admit the truth. Both sides came armed for battle, and both sides committed violence. Just look how many swarmed the guy's car, instantly attacking it. (At 35-40 seconds into the video.) And multiple fights broke out at numerous points. Have we really come to the point where violence is okay as long as you agree with the position of those committing it?

We have people like Rubio saying that only one side was 100% responsible. How is that even possible? If you bring a club to a protest march and then start using it, you are responsible for your own violence.

I can't believe the Republicans are so cowardly. Trump is the only one acting like a leader. This tendency ignore reality is Orwellian.

HLT, I agree that Lee sounds like an asshole. But as the Tucker Carlson quotes above point out, we'll have to disavow most of our Founding Fathers if we're going to make this one aspect the only important one. We'll have to stop teaching Plato at colleges and brand Islam as a racist religion, since Plato and Muhammed owned slaves, too.

It is just stupid for our country to go to war with itself over the monuments of a previous Civil War. Those monuments have been there for 150 years or more. Why are they all of a sudden problematic? Don't you think the timing is a little convenient (for the Left)? This is a manufactured issue to attack Republicans. No one is oppressed by statues. No one's rights are being denied (except the Right's free speech). I suppose if a majority of people in those towns want the statues removed, I have no problem with it. I just don't understand being willing to commit violence in order to make that happen.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

No other Republican has the balls to admit the truth. Both sides came armed for battle, and both sides committed violence. Just look how many swarmed the guy's car, instantly attacking it. (At 35-40 seconds into the video.)


I love Trump.
Antifa shows up with masks and baseball bats, are shown being just as violent as anyone else but get treated by the press like they were throwing flowers and sunshine.
Saying Antifa is also bad doesn't mean you have no problem with the Nazi groups!!!
Both can be evil.
WTF, is that so hard to understand???
Unless it doesn't fit their agenda.


Zarathustra wrote:

I can't believe the Republicans are so cowardly.


I'm not surprised anymore.
Prepare to be disappointed with Tax reform too.

Zarathustra wrote:
HLT, I agree that Lee sounds like an asshole. But as the Tucker Carlson quotes above point out, we'll have to disavow most of our Founding Fathers if we're going to make this one aspect the only important one.


I think a huge difference can be made.
The Founders are respected for founding the country.
The Confederates are remembered for fighting to maintain the right to continue to own slaves.
But I expect the argument will be made anyway.


Zarathustra wrote:
Those monuments have been there for 150 years or more. Why are they all of a sudden problematic? Don't you think the timing is a little convenient (for the Left)? This is a manufactured issue to attack Republicans.


I think they were always problematic. but who was going to complain about them for most of those 150 years? Even in the 60's? Blacks were still not allowed to use certain water fountains, sat at the back of buses....Segregation was real. 70's and 80's things got better but blacks still lacked the political numbers. it was only a matter of time, imho.

It's a freaking goldmine for the liberals. Russia had all but died off and Korea backed down. Now this for the next 3 months.


Zarathustra wrote:
I suppose if a majority of people in those towns want the statues removed, I have no problem with it. I just don't understand being willing to commit violence in order to make that happen.


I agree. And the violent people should be jailed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still can't believe there is still a nazis party in America that can actually organize like they did.
I know they existed, somewhere, but before this weekend, other than the occasional David Duke quote that gets tossed out there against Republicans every election cycle I've never read any stories about them or seen any pictures.
Maybe just a prison gang member on TV.
All I can think of is this scene from the Blues Brothers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulCw7RJ5eE8

How many Nazis actually showed up last weekend?
I heard on NPR this morning that it was a couple of hundred.
A couple of hundred out of 350million Americans isn't something to be worried about. But it's reported like the end of days is happening.[/url]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
I still can't believe there is still a nazis party in America that can actually organize like they did.


That is exactly what I was thinking.

I guess you don't know your house is infested with termites until you actually see the wood begin to rot.

I wouldn't have believed it otherwise.

However the jackass Richard Spencer was recently denied a visit to the University of Florida and if it weren't for Charlottesville I would have assumed he was a lone anomaly.

I knew there were racist (white supremacist) boneheads out there in the world. I just didn't realize they were organized, no matter how small, and were still able to make news.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
I still can't believe there is still a nazis party in America that can actually organize like they did.


That is exactly what I was thinking.


It's no more surprising than the fact that there is a communist party in the U.S. Communists killed between 20-70 million people. Nazis killed about 6 million. But Nazis are viewed as the greater of the two evils.

I can't believe Bill Ayers is a celebrated professor.

I can't believe the Democrat Party supports a group that won't admit all lives matter (or even let others admit it).

I can't believe Obama honored the family of a criminal who attempted to murder a cop.

I can't believe the Dems perpetuated racial myths that incited violence which destroyed two cities.

I can't believe all the violence and crimes of the Occupy Wall Street were never addressed in the mainstream media.

I can't believe that the far-Left can use violence to stop conservative speakers from speaking on campuses, and there is no universal outcry in defense of free speech and denouncing the violence.

Clearly, we live in unbelievable times!

[Edit: the Nazis aren't mainstream Americans, and no one in the mainstream--from the media to academia--supports them. All the examples I listed above are either part of the mainstream on the Left, supported by the mainstream, or swept under the rug by the mainstream. They certainly aren't universally condemned like the Nazis.]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:


I can't believe that the far-Left can use violence to stop conservative speakers from speaking on campuses, and there is no universal outcry in defense of free speech and denouncing the violence.



Z, I believe you are pointing out hypocrisy. Specifically hypocritical actions by those on the political left who, in general, control most of the media.

Saying extremists are hypocrites is like saying politicians are liars.

Extremists, in this case left leaning extremists, say or do whatever it takes to fulfill their agenda and because they have an extreme point of view and have a Chicken Little level of fear and anxiety their cause is fueled by lunatic passions. Forget logic or common sense its all for the cause.

I can't help but think of "Bagdad Bob" telling rows of cameras that there were no invading troops in the city whilst enemy tanks literally rolled by behind him. Extremists are similar in that they say and do whatever it takes and they are not governed by breaches of personal integrity or shame or facts. Its frustrating to witness it happening no matter what extremist or extremist group is perpetrating it. Left, right, purple it doesn't matter.

I don't trust extremists of any kind. Too much of anything, even something good, can be bad. And it seems at present we're surrounded by all kinds of political, social and religious extremity.

We do indeed live in unbelievable times.
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