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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atomic, I agree, except with your term "extremists." As I mentioned in my edit, my list was largely supported by or tacitly condoned by the mainstream. Even now in this incident, it's apparently outrageous to point out facts if they don't conform to the mainstream narrative. Trump has caused an uproar by saying both sides engaged in violence! I hate to overuse the word, but that's unbelievable!

This is one of the main reasons why Trump got elected, because people are tired to reality being denied in order to prop up a political ideology that can only exist, apparently, by lying to us. Even for things we can see with our own eyes!

Who do they think they're fooling? We are a the YouTube generation. They can't hide the truth from us anymore.

They are only going to assure Trump's reelection.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Atomic, I agree, except with your term "extremists." As I mentioned in my edit, my list was largely supported by or tacitly condoned by the mainstream.


I don't happen to believe that the vocal and visible minority of people that represent the "mainstream" by being visible through traditional and social media reflect the actual views of the majority of Americans left or right. You may ask "what difference does it make?" in which case I wouldn't have a good answer but it simply makes me feel better knowing that most people don't play these games, though I'm sure, like me, they are watching on the sidelines wondering at what point the train left the damn tracks.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My issue with this is that the news isn't reporting the truth. So if you're a casual observer, you'd be led to think that what happened in Charlottesville was because of Nazis. That is simply not what happened. You'd think that Trump endorsed the Nazis, and that his "delay" in condemning them was an endorsement. That is simply not what happened (and may I remind you that Obama never condemned radical Islamic terrorism after the Ft. Hood shooting; that was workplace violence).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we're witnessing a coup, and anyone who speaks out against it is a racist and/or a traitor.

And isn't it funny how this got whipped up just when NK backed down and Russiagate turned out to be BS?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atomic, good points. I don't think "mainstream" represents the majority, otherwise Trump wouldn't have won and the Republicans wouldn't be in power. But "mainstream" does connote a consensus, almost an orthodoxy, among news media, academia, and entertainment. In other words, those who hold the keys to our culture and our collective facts. They have appointed themselves as the ones who decide what is proper and what is true. But it's a self-serving illusion.

I think the public isn't as susceptible to illusion as the elites think.

Cail wrote:
My issue with this is that the news isn't reporting the truth.
Exactly, and truth which is demonstrable and indisputable.

Cail wrote:
(and may I remind you that Obama never condemned radical Islamic terrorism after the Ft. Hood shooting; that was workplace violence).
There was also the massive campaign to blame Benghazi on a video rather than the actual terrorists. And there was the attempt to hide the Orlando shooter's allegiance to ISIS. And Obama's steadfast refusal to EVER name the ideology motivating Islamic terrorism. The hypocrisy is stunning. Violence and terrorism should only be identified/named when it makes conservatives look bad. Otherwise, it should be hidden and left unspoken.

I can't believe they think we're this stupid that we don't notice. Why do they think Trump won?

Cail wrote:
And isn't it funny how this got whipped up just when NK backed down and Russiagate turned out to be BS?
The same thing happened every time a new revelation about Hillary's email came out. It's weird how sometimes there are protests for blacks being killed, and other times there are not, depending on whether the Dems need a distraction.

It's a documented fact that many of these protesters are organized, trained, and paid to incite violence. This is a top-down, organized movement, not a grassroots effort.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I find even more disturbing is that I'm not a tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorist, and I see this as it is.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what the legacy of Charlottesville will be: mourners will continue to oppose the alt-right wherever they show up to "defend" a statue (that they have never seen before in a town they have never been to) and/or seek out other such statues in public areas to campaign for their removal. After a month or two--maybe three--they will begin to forget about poor Ms. Heyer (or at least they will stop mentioning her name) but their campaign will continue. Eventually, they will remember her only on the anniversary of her death...and, sadly, even then they will only continue to do so for about a decade or so (except for family and friends, who will continue to do so for a very long time).

Meanwhile, we have to ask some questions:
Where is the end goal with the "take them down" campaign? Should the Jefferson Memorial be taken down because he owned slaves? Should we take his likeness of the $2 bill? (on an unrelated note do we still need the $2 note? I like them because they are an unusual curiosity but they don't really serve much use any more.)

If all Confederate memorials are removed from public spaces, all streets and schools are renamed, and no cities or States have Confederate-themed imagery in their insignia, what will actually change? No one is going to walk past a park where a statue of Robert E. Lee used to be and suddenly have an epiphany that their racist outlook was wrong.

Which people's statues are fit for removal, only those of Confederate figures? What about Custer, who fought for the Union? Certainly the Native Americans don't want any statues of him around any where so shouldn't those be removed, as well? What about statues of notorious people like Jesse James? He was a bank robber and a murderer--why commemorate him?

What happens when the alt-right goes after a statue of someone like MLK and tears it down in a manner similar to what happened to that statue in Durham?

Since we are holding people accountable for guilt over events which happened over 150 years ago, when are we going to discuss how Democrats spent much of the decade of the 1850s trying to find ways not to end slavery, even going so far as to pass a resolution which Congress sent to the States to amend the Constitution which would have forbidden Congress from abolishing slavery? Although his signature was irrelevant, James Buchanan (Democrat) actually signed it once both Houses of Congress passed the resolution.

Finally, when the next confrontation happens--and it will happen, sooner than any of us wants it to--won't both sides already be pre-disposed for violence, both to inflict it and to guard against it? Won't that just make matter worse?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:


Quote:

But let's be honest. Up until 150 years ago when a group of brave Americans fought and died to finally put an end to it, slavery was the rule, rather than the exception around the world.


Just a point of fact, slavery was confirmed as illegal in England in 1722, and abolished throughout the British Empire by 1833.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Avatar!!! That's right! In fact at that time most European countries with Britain leading the charge against slavery.

The civil war was principally about right to seperate from the Union. Lincoln didn't want Britain allying with the confederate states, cos they wanted their cotton (British industries were in need of cotton) .. it wasn't at all about slavery till much, much later toward the end of the war.

Yes the confederates wanted slavery as their livelihood and wealth depend my on the resource slavery provided- free labour. The Union was supposed to be voluntary Union and technically they had the right to cecede (sp ?) .. so Lincoln blockaded British ships from trading with the confederacy. You remember the British ship that was captured and crew taken .. which miffed the Brits and they threatened the Union, and that famous Lincoln quote " let's fight one war at a time and let them the captives go. Lincoln embraced the anti/slavery cause to align with the anti-slavery movement which the Brits cared about .. (of course the Brits must have known their cotton was achieved through slave labour lol). So the Brits ceased trade with the confederate states. Boom!

Yes the statues and place names - in the south represent slavery / racism but to be honest most Union states didn't go to war to fight and die to free slaves. It's hard to judge figures in history, they are products of their time. The problem is that white dumbass supremesists and the likes of the KKK, neo-nazis use these figures as icons for their respective movements.

As far as Charlottesville, god what a mess .. but chanting Jews will not replace us, and blood and soul and their anti-black rhetoric was too far. Trump makes a huge deal about THEM having a permit/licence to march, but they are not legally justified in racial vilification! You're not allowed to vilify people if other races, at least not in this country, not sure about the US. I saw the media report of a group of protesters beating the crap out of a young black guy - there's no protections for assaulting any person, then those who died, well that's a bridge too far! Those responsible should be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. ☹️
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my point albeit long winded is that slavery was not in point of fact "the rule" at that time 😏
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
YYou're not allowed to vilify people if other races, at least not in this country, not sure about the US.


The First Amendment allows us the freedom to be assholes to one another, like cats are. That may not be ideal and it may not be acceptable to everyone, but the alternative--being disallowed by law from holding an opinion about a group of people--is so much worse that it must be avoided at all costs. That sort of speech control is only one step away from "thought police".
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:

Just a point of fact, slavery was confirmed as illegal in England in 1722, and abolished throughout the British Empire by 1833.

--A
The timeline worldwide is quite complex.

Skyweir wrote:

The civil war was principally about right to seperate from the Union. Lincoln didn't want Britain allying with the confederate states, cos they wanted their cotton (British industries were in need of cotton) .. it wasn't at all about slavery till much, much later toward the end of the war.
I agree. I think that slavery--like racism today--was just an excuse for one side to attack the other, to impose their will, and increase their political power. Because slavery and racism are unquestionably wrong, people think that they can't be questioned as long as they claim to be fighting these things. And that's why Trump isn't "allowed" to mention the violence on the Left, because the mainstream media has declared that off-limits due to an assumed moral superiority.

Racism still exists today, but our contention lately is largely symbolic. People are offended by Nazi symbolism and statues, and words Trump said, rather than actual instances of racial oppression. People are committing violence over symbols and words. Crazy.

Skyweir wrote:

Trump makes a huge deal about THEM having a permit/licence to march, but they are not legally justified in racial vilification! You're not allowed to vilify people if other races, at least not in this country, not sure about the US.
Not only are they legally justified, but their right to free speech is a Constitutional right. It's literally the very first one, the First Amendment. We let people say what they want in America (well, most of us do).

Skyweir wrote:

I saw the media report of a group of protesters beating the crap out of a young black guy - there's no protections for assaulting any person,
Did you see the media report of the counter-protesters coming armed for battle and beating the crap out of white people? Or the guy who punched the organizer of the rally when he was trying to have a press conference? Violence is bad no matter which side you're on. Violence used to shut people up is among the worst kind of violence there is.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think very few people during the period of the civil war fought to liberate black peoples from slavery. I am sure a significant number were morally opposed to slavery but it was an accepted means of profiteering 😏 at the time.

It's always challenging not to look back in history and judge those times through our more modern, more enlightened and arguably changed morality perspectives. However, Z ... phew ... today's march is somewhat different. Regrettably to the alt right, neo-nazis and the KKK some of these monuments are icons of their, especially today modern grievances and are a justification, for want of a better word, for their racism and discriminatory world view.

Freedom of speech is a protection under your constitution- sure all can express opinions, thoughts etc but hate speech and racial vilification are exceptions to that - you have court rulings against discriminatory actions as well as speech. This suggests to me at least their are limitations to its exercise. Reasonable limitations not intended to hamstring a persons freedom, so long as harms are not caused.

I didn't see imagery of the "left" beatings and their acts of violence should be prosecuted. How did the woman and the two police officers die? I think the frigg'n Charlottesville incident was a right royal cluster-f#%^ ... the authorities should have been able to anticipate the inevitable and predictable consequences of the protest. Riot police should have been kitted up and armed ready for a confrontation if the kind that occurred. Local authorities also should have anticipated the altercations that would occur and undertaken consultations meeting with all parties prior to the protests.

That's my 2 cents, as a former law enforcement officer, both at the state level and the national level in this country. The entire event was poorly managed by those who's role it is to keep the peace. However, those responsible for the unnecessary deaths, should answer for their crimes. All of them, regardless of their political stands.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vandals chipped the nose off a statue of Robert E. Lee at Duke.

I told you they were going to start seeking out "racist" statues for destruction and/or defacing.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Avatar wrote:

Just a point of fact, slavery was confirmed as illegal in England in 1722, and abolished throughout the British Empire by 1833.

--A
The timeline worldwide is quite complex.


Fair enough, just pointing out that rather than being the rule by the time the US abolished it, they were actually still one of the exceptions.

Skyweir wrote:
...as a former law enforcement officer, both at the state level and the national level in this country...


You were a cop Sky? Oh god...I'll try not to hold it against you. Razz Wink

--A
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Av - every body hates cops - till they need 'em

I'll try not to hold your aversion to cops against you 😏😛
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Dems risk culture war fight in Charlottesville response

Quote:
… In interviews this week before his resignation was announced Friday, White House strategist Steve Bannon gleefully suggested Democrats are falling into a trap.

"I want them to talk about racism every day," Bannon told The American Prospect, a liberal magazine. "If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats."

Trump himself has called Confederate memorials, most of them actually erected decades after the Civil War, "beautiful statues" that reflect "our nation's history and culture."

Polls taken after last weekend's violence offer some evidence backing Bannon's and Trump's view. While polls found widespread disgust with white supremacists, a Marist Poll for NPR and PBS found that just 27 percent of adults queried believe Confederate monuments "should be removed because they are offensive." About two out of three white and Latino respondents said they should remain, as did 44 percent of black respondents.

Andrew Young, a Democrat, civil rights leader and former U.N. ambassador, warned this week that the monuments are "a distraction." He told reporters in Atlanta it is "too costly to refight the Civil War." …

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Av - every body hates cops - till they need 'em

I'll try not to hold your aversion to cops against you 😏😛


Well, I might be prejudiced since cops here don't really have a good reputation...

--A
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:


Well, I might be prejudiced since cops here don't really have a good reputation...

--A

Yeah I get that, I'm moderately familiar with the situation in South Africa. Not easy to navigate a system steeped in corruption. Can't even imagine the systemic issues that accompany that 🤢
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protesters in Detroit couldn't find any Confederate statues/memorials to protest, so they decided to protest a Christopher Columbus statue instead. It doesn't matter to these protesters--anything which doesn't commemorate a non-white person is a statue dedicated to "white supremacy".

This whole mess is going to become really problematic when protesters begin to go after memorials which are on private property.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder when those of Southern heritage start protesting the
Northern statues because it promotes gloating and is causing
a further division in a country that is supposed to be united?
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