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The 'Seive'

 
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peter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: The 'Seive' Reply with quote

Christopher Potter [a great author on popular science if you haven't come across him yet], puts forward this beautiful definition of science as being the 'sieve by which technology is drawn out of Nature'. He speculates as to where if ever, this process will end; as we know more and more about less and less, will we one day reach a point where all of nature has been passed through the sieve, where there is no nature left from which to wring out the last drop of technology - and where indeed will we find ourselves to be if we reach that place.

To date it is from physics and chemistry that the bulk of world changing tech has been sieved - but that is set to change. We are now on the cusp of getting to grips with sieving tech out of our understanding of the biology of our world and by all accounts this could herald the beginning of changes to us, to our ways of existence, that make all that has come before pale into insignificance.

It's a great description on which to form a mental image of the relationship between science and technology and I thank him for it.

[Search out his book How to Make a Human Being for a further display of the mans thinking; you won't regret it!]
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Cord Hurn
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He speculates as to where if ever, this process will end; as we know more and more about less and less, will we one day reach a point where all of nature has been passed through the sieve, where there is no nature left from which to wring out the last drop of technology - and where indeed will we find ourselves to be if we reach that place.


Hopefully not, and I just can't picture that happening.

Quote:
To date it is from physics and chemistry that the bulk of world changing tech has been sieved - but that is set to change. We are now on the cusp of getting to grips with sieving tech out of our understanding of the biology of our world and by all accounts this could herald the beginning of changes to us, to our ways of existence, that make all that has come before pale into insignificance.


I have less trouble visualizing this coming to pass.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
Quote:
He speculates as to where if ever, this process will end; as we know more and more about less and less, will we one day reach a point where all of nature has been passed through the sieve, where there is no nature left from which to wring out the last drop of technology - and where indeed will we find ourselves to be if we reach that place.


Hopefully not, and I just can't picture that happening.

Quote:
To date it is from physics and chemistry that the bulk of world changing tech has been sieved - but that is set to change. We are now on the cusp of getting to grips with sieving tech out of our understanding of the biology of our world and by all accounts this could herald the beginning of changes to us, to our ways of existence, that make all that has come before pale into insignificance.


I have less trouble visualizing this coming to pass.


On the first---I hope exactly that happens, though it ain't likely soon...or maybe it is...see continuation on the second...but/and, as I've said before, once we understand all of nature the next step is making NEW nature. That is what tech is FOR. We'll just use the OLD nature as raw materials. See...nature is just things, but we're not JUST sieving gold from rock. We're sieving ideas/process from facts. Also, it isn't the rock OR the gold that matters [even if those materials can be useful], it's the sieve that is important. HOW we go about getting knowledge is more important, in the long run, than the knowledge itself.

On the second..we started changing us a long ass time ago. We should to do it better and faster, which the best of us are. The difference is that the worst of us aren't necessarily the dumbest/blindest of us. They see/sense their own extinction, and unfortunately have power to resist. They think difference=death. But fail to see sameness=death, too.
It's the difference between thinking the species we came from DIED and that the things we came from BECAME us.
[[which is why we should stop worrying about what AI might do to us...and also START trying, every time an AI advance happens, figure out how to integrate it with us. Yea..I'm back to CYBORG.
We either go that way, or it doesn't matter which/what nation/culture/ideology/technology kills us off.

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the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too am much happier with the idea that we are the beginning of something, rather than the end of something else. It is of course our minds that are the important thing, our corporeal aspect being a useful, but limiting factor that we will outgrow (interstellar travel will unlikely ever be achieved unless we can digitise our minds and transport them at light speed to our chosen destinations) or learn to adjust/change to the particular needs of the moment (including it's complete shedding). Given the exponential rate of knowledge increase, we may indeed be closer to such changes than we realise; we just have to get over this sticky patch we're going through at the moment. It's a race against time: most of us and our issue won't make it. But some will, some must survive to form the nucleus of what is to come.

(Don't mind me - I'm feeling a bit 'messianic' this morning! Wink )
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'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:
Quote:
He speculates as to where if ever, this process will end; as we know more and more about less and less, will we one day reach a point where all of nature has been passed through the sieve, where there is no nature left from which to wring out the last drop of technology - and where indeed will we find ourselves to be if we reach that place.


Hopefully not, and I just can't picture that happening.

Quote:
To date it is from physics and chemistry that the bulk of world changing tech has been sieved - but that is set to change. We are now on the cusp of getting to grips with sieving tech out of our understanding of the biology of our world and by all accounts this could herald the beginning of changes to us, to our ways of existence, that make all that has come before pale into insignificance.


I have less trouble visualizing this coming to pass.


On the first---I hope exactly that happens, though it ain't likely soon...or maybe it is...see continuation on the second...but/and, as I've said before, once we understand all of nature the next step is making NEW nature. That is what tech is FOR. We'll just use the OLD nature as raw materials. See...nature is just things, but we're not JUST sieving gold from rock. We're sieving ideas/process from facts. Also, it isn't the rock OR the gold that matters [even if those materials can be useful], it's the sieve that is important. HOW we go about getting knowledge is more important, in the long run, than the knowledge itself.

On the second..we started changing us a long ass time ago. We should to do it better and faster, which the best of us are. The difference is that the worst of us aren't necessarily the dumbest/blindest of us. They see/sense their own extinction, and unfortunately have power to resist. They think difference=death. But fail to see sameness=death, too.
It's the difference between thinking the species we came from DIED and that the things we came from BECAME us.
[[which is why we should stop worrying about what AI might do to us...and also START trying, every time an AI advance happens, figure out how to integrate it with us. Yea..I'm back to CYBORG.
We either go that way, or it doesn't matter which/what nation/culture/ideology/technology kills us off.


on your first Wink ........... WTF????? Whats wrong with nature we have 🤷‍♀️ I think that is the path to desolation .. what replacing flowering plants with metallic replicas 🤷‍♀️ ... replacing protected areas of the planet with concrete and steel 🤷‍♀️

Or a functional nature substitute .. robotic bees that pollinate genetically altered flora .. and what of all the fauna .. yes we are already on the path to extinction in a number of species but what would you replace them with 🤷‍♀️ What about forget about fucking replacing stuff and looking after the stuff we already have 🤷‍♀️

Fuck toads this is the worst thing Ive read ... in an age

Never enough is it 🤷‍♀️ humans are never satisfied with things as they are .. they have to upgrade lol 😂 .. It is our natural world that supports life .. and its imminently beautiful .. maybe for those who dont spend time with nature .. arent interested in the natural world that envelops us .. maybe they can see the future you describe

You stick to your cities and leave the unspoiled realms be .. you have your play things .. why replicate natures oxygen producing capability to replace it with a fabrication of the same 🤷‍♀️ .. Id wager it would be our undoing .. but then yes .. we really are on that path ... and it will be our own undoing 🙄

On your second .. huh 🤷‍♀️ you arent sieving ideas and processes from facts .. those facts are only gleaned from observations of the natural world .. hence the parallel .. I think that dude was going for here .. in the article.

On your second, my third .. Laughing ugh Cyborg groupie .. how is that going to be a better us or a best us 🤷‍♀️ .. yes yes I see that if I cant use a leg I can get a bionic one implanted and hey presto I can walk ... there is value in that

.. but thats veery different from going entirely CYBORG .. Laughing .. well how much of whats human do you replace .. the greed part, extract that, the violence part, yep extract that, the anger part, the selfishness part, .. what is left a lobotomised human .. or shell of a human .. walking around on their bionic legs being nothing more than a fabrication of a human.

Meh 🤷‍♀️ what of family, relationships, affection, connections, intimacy, pleasure, satisfaction, labour, creativity .. can you replicate or fabricate viable replacement bionics for all of that 🤷‍♀️ .. ok so artificial intelligence .. yes sure it is undoubtedly the HIGHEST regulated entity that moves .. it has parameters .. but can it feel ... yes back to the feels ..

But what we feel is a big part of what defines us as individuals .. but perhaps it is individuality that is the problem 🤷‍♀️ self interest .. how will the CYBORG upgrade us from potential uniqueness ..

It is on .. this is not a forward progression .. it is retrograde .. not upgrade .. it is a half humanity or .. less ... living is not living like that ..

I live .. I am in touch with the natural world and it enlivens your consciousness, your being physically, emotionally and probably even spiritually if we can ever define that .. I am also in touch with the human world too .. mores the pity 🙄 but on a MUCH lesser scale now .. technology is not all that .. and if it were .. IT ... that will be the very end of life.
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Last edited by Skyweir on Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yeah Im still a groupie but .. fuck man .. what fresh hell is the goal here 🤷‍♀️
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my big regrets Sky is that there's this huge limitless 'out there' out there .......... and I never get to see it. I don't mean through a telescope, I mean to get in amongst it, to run my fingers through it! I love our world - I've lived more nature in my life than most are fortunate enough to get - and I weep for what we have done to it....... but it is because of this love that I yearn to see more. Perhaps it is our tech that will allow us to save our home, to repair what we in our infant forays into our capabilities have inflicted upon the world which bore us. Perhaps it will also take us to places both outside and within us, currently beyond our limited ability to concieve.
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....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im right with you Pete

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