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Just how powerful was Mhoram, really?
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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I felt the sign of readiness. The krill of Loric came to life. That is the appointed word. I answer as I was made to do."

"Then you have - Amok, hear me. I am seer and oracle for this Council. I speak words of vision. I have not seen you. You have come too soon. We did not give life to the krill. That was not our doing. We lack the lore for such work."

Amok's face became suddenly grave, almost frightened, showing for the first time some of the antiquity of his skill. "Lack the lore? Then I have erred. I have misserved my purpose. I must depart; I will do great harm else."


Quote:
"Lord, the white gold surpasses my purpose. I felt the sign of readiness when the krill of Loric came to life. I went to Revelstone. There I learned that the krill was not awakened by the Lords of Kevin's Lore. I feared that I had erred. But now I have traveled the Land, and seen the peril. And I have learned of the white gold, which awakened Loric's krill. This shows the wisdom of my creation. Though the conditions of my life are not met, I see the need, and I appear."

Amok didn't actually say you learn how to make the krill come to life by mastering the Sixth Ward. We just assume that you get to the Seventh by going through the Sixth. Which, I suppose, is a fair guess. So let's go with it.

We're assuming that pulling the krill from the table was proof that Mhoram had brought it to life in the way that would have summoned Amok. But maybe not. Maybe he only learned how to use it well enough to pull it from the table. And, of course, channel his power through it. But maybe Amok would not have been summoned. Because if Amok WOULD have been summoned, it means Mhoram skipped Ward's 3-6 entirely! THAT is some serious shit! That would speak of power and intuition way beyond even the considerable level that we usually grant that he had. He somehow intuited everything needed to jump to the very end of Kevin's Lore?!? Because that's what was required to bring the krill to life, and summon Amok.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Because if Amok WOULD have been summoned, it means Mhoram skipped Ward's 3-6 entirely! THAT is some serious shit! That would speak of power and intuition way beyond even the considerable level that we usually grant that he had. He somehow intuited everything needed to jump to the very end of Kevin's Lore?!? Because that's what was required to bring the krill to life, and summon Amok.

We should be careful not to assume that Mhoram actually learned anything beyond what was already in the first and second Wards. After all, the finding of the second Ward revealed the chamber of gifts and in turn, the Krill. It stands to reason, and I would be shocked if it were not the case, that the second Ward contained some lore to using it.

It may be that through Mhoram's careful study of the blade, his discovery of the "secret" and the knowledge he gained of the second Ward, that he would have been able to use the Krill without "awakening" it. After all, we are never told what "awakening" actually means - it may mean that he was able to control his power through the blade, as he demonstrates with his staff when he puts too much power through it. But it may also mean that he would be able to perform that feat without harming himself - as Covenant does with the Wild Magic - which Mhoram did not do.

We should remember that Mhoram, as seer and oracle, never saw Amok. This could be put down to randomness of visions. It could be that by the time he might have seen Amok, Elena had already drank of the Earthblood and Amok no longer existed. Or it may mean that even in using the Krill to slay the Satansfist, he had not control enough over the Krill to truly awaken it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mhoram did not see Amok because Amok was not supposed to be there. The Lords never would have been able to summon him. Therefore, he was not in the future. So, when Mhoram caught glimpses of the future, Amok was not in them.

But that pesky wild magic made possible what was not possible, and rewrote the times that Mhoram had seen. It is the keystone to the Arch of Time, neh? Mhoram saw 10:05pm on January 24, 2018, and Amok was not there. Wild magic rewrites it, so when 10:05pm on January 24, 2018 arrives, Amok is there.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Forestal. Being able to use the krill when it's already turned on is not the same as being able to turn it on. One is simple use, but the other is binding it to you.

No, IR, the story AFAICT never makes use of Mhoram activating the krill again. Thereafter he only uses it when it's already activated. And if he had been testing a theory he would have been more proud of the result I think. Besides, at this time he FEARED this power, it seems unlikely he would test it in such a way.

Think about the final scene at Glimmermere. Mhoram said the blade was dead now. If he had the power, he surely would have awakened it then. But it was now useless, and being useless it was everything that the Wards now stood for.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Yes, Forestal. Being able to use the krill when it's already turned on is not the same as being able to turn it on. One is simple use, but the other is binding it to you.

No, IR, the story AFAICT never makes use of Mhoram activating the krill again. Thereafter he only uses it when it's already activated. And if he had been testing a theory he would have been more proud of the result I think. Besides, at this time he FEARED this power, it seems unlikely he would test it in such a way.

The test wasn't a "logical" choice, rather it was a culmination of his grief and despair that "this cannot be the end" so he reached out to the Krill, and gave it life. This so shocked him that he came back to himself and realized how close he had been to totally losing control. Because he knew the source of that burst of passion (and distrusted it so fully), he again suppressed the despair and its associated passion. This extinguished the flame, and provided the reason for his dismissive "it has no life now", because he felt the passion which ignited it no longer had life.
Quote:

Think about the final scene at Glimmermere. Mhoram said the blade was dead now. If he had the power, he surely would have awakened it then. But it was now useless, and being useless it was everything that the Wards now stood for.

This you have backwards. Because Mhoram now rejected the teachings of the Wards as corruptible, he would have no need or desire to reignite the Krill using lore born of the Wards. He therefore committed the Krill to Glimmermere as a symbol of his hope for the future in a Lore that was not corrupted by Kevin's teachings. (We all know how well that went...)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IrrationalSanity wrote:
He therefore committed the Krill to Glimmermere as a symbol of his hope for the future in a Lore that was not corrupted by Kevin's teachings.

Oof! That hit me right in the feels!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forestal wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Because if Amok WOULD have been summoned, it means Mhoram skipped Ward's 3-6 entirely! THAT is some serious shit! That would speak of power and intuition way beyond even the considerable level that we usually grant that he had. He somehow intuited everything needed to jump to the very end of Kevin's Lore?!? Because that's what was required to bring the krill to life, and summon Amok.

We should be careful not to assume that Mhoram actually learned anything beyond what was already in the first and second Wards.

We know the new Lords believed their lore inferior because they didn't understand everything in Kevin's Wards, but Kevin didn't learn from Wards. He learned from Berek, and Loric, etc... who learned through experience. Kevin himself also learned through experience. There is no reason at all to believe the new Lords did not also accumulate their own Lore through experience, even if it did not align fully with Kevin's teachings. We know of at least one significant ability the new Lords had that the old Lords did not.

In addition, once Mhoram revealed his "secret" to the others, they very clearly had their own flashes of inspiration (and yes, fear) that connected things they "knew" already to the teachings of the Wards...
Quote:
After all, the finding of the second Ward revealed the chamber of gifts and in turn, the Krill. It stands to reason, and I would be shocked if it were not the case, that the second Ward contained some lore to using it.

We should also be careful not to assume that just because the 2nd Ward enabled the chamber to be found/unlocked/opened, that EVERYTHING in the chamber was meant to be covered by its teaching. It could have been more of a "You have now mastered the basics, and know the danger of unearned power - here is the repository of tools that you will be able to use as you master the rest of the Lore." Sort of like the difference between a freshman "classroom" lab toolbox (e.g. Ryobi), and the real "professional" tools (Snap-On).
Quote:

It may be that through Mhoram's careful study of the blade, his discovery of the "secret" and the knowledge he gained of the second Ward, that he would have been able to use the Krill without "awakening" it. After all, we are never told what "awakening" actually means - it may mean that he was able to control his power through the blade, as he demonstrates with his staff when he puts too much power through it. But it may also mean that he would be able to perform that feat without harming himself - as Covenant does with the Wild Magic - which Mhoram did not do.

I give you this...
The Power that Preserves wrote:

As he gazed at this rendition of Covenant's fate, High Lord Mhoram experienced again the sudden passion which had enabled him to draw a gleam from Loric's Krill.

Quote:

We should remember that Mhoram, as seer and oracle, never saw Amok. This could be put down to randomness of visions. It could be that by the time he might have seen Amok, Elena had already drank of the Earthblood and Amok no longer existed. Or it may mean that even in using the Krill to slay the Satansfist, he had not control enough over the Krill to truly awaken it.

While he may not have seen Amok, I believe he did have the power by then. The chapter "The Ritual of Desecration" in TPTP has a lot of insight.
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