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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 3 & 4
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danlo
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 5:40 pm    Post subject: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 3 & 4 Reply with quote

Could you kill Satan with an atombomb? I don't think so...

These two are realtively short chapters but MAN do they pack a punch!!! I think it would be very interesting to write, or have SRD write, the whole story of Lord Foul penetrating Revelstone, sitting at High Lord Kevin's right side, working his secret machinations and taking the reader through the massive battles that lead up to the Ritual of Desecration. It's definately a story in and of itself. Confused

Flashing police lights become Drool's bubbling magma eyes...

The Cavewright really is a Staff waving fool beneath a huge "Gray-slaying" thunderhead that can blink us from a cave in Kiril Threndor to Kevin's Watch in an instant. I can heal you groveler! "For I have begun my attack upon this age, and the future is mine."

Quote:
Drool Rockworm does not know what a black rock it is on which he stands. And that is not his only ignorance--but of my deeper plans I say nothing. He serves me well in his way, though he does not intend service. Likewise will you and those timid Lords serve me, whether you choose or no. Let them grope through their shallow mysteries for a time, barely fearing that I am alive. They have not mastered the seventh part of dead Kevin's Lore, and yet in their pride they dare to name themselves Earthfriends, servants of Peace. They are too blind to preceive their own arrogance. But I will teach them to see.

It's absolutely breathtaking the way Donaldson swirls TC's fall and fears in front of the police car, with it's flashing redlights, to Drool's gleaming red eyes and a terrifying encounter with this god-deamon Foul. Then a message is imparted leaving Covenant passed out on a platform in the middle of the sky!

First: obsessed with TC then possesed by Lord Foul, heaven help me!

I don't know if I can live through a third reading of the Series! And now we've set ourselves up for SRD to bide his time, like a laughing, merciless, madman, and wait for us poor pitiful servants of The Land to finish the dissection of the ENTIRE Series before he, ever ( Rolling Eyes ), springs the 3rd Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever on us...Ay Carumba, just too much!

You are lost, you're dead, you're crazy, you are a hopeless rotting leper with wicked vertigo coming to miles above a completely foriegn place. "Hail!" I'm Lena and you are Berek Halfhand The Lord Fatherer reincarnate and this is The Land! Small shock to the system, to say the least...If I felt I would fall against granite cliffs to the seven pits of hell, on the way down, I might want to look up a girl's dress too... Twisted Evil


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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For I have begun my attack upon this age, and the future is mine. I will not fail again.

This lets us know that Foul can be beaten, as has happened in an earlier time. Foul knows how to approach TC, offering him health. He shows nothing but contempt for Kevin and Loric. All are beneath his contempt, save for Berek, Lord Fatherer whom he hates.
Quote:
I shall not rest until I have eradicated hope from the earth. Think on that, and be dismayed.

What a charge to place upon the back of TC, who is almost without hope anyhow.

An aside, and a reference into the present. As I read back through this chapter and came again to the part where Foul is telling how he was at the side of Kevin for many years. It struck me that there is a similarity between that and what is now happening between the US and Iraq.

I found it interesting that although he repeatedly states that none of what he is experiencing is real, he determines that in order to avoid madness he must flee along the path of the dream. When he tells Lena, completely without preamble, that he must go to the council, he indicates acceptance of the new reality. Then, when he starts down the steps, he can only do that by convincing himself that this "dream" cannot kill him.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He must keep moving 2 survive--whether this is real or not. I think, at least 2 him, the goal of getting the message to the Lords is more important than the message itself...great complimentary comments, btw, guest!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo Danlo !! A striking kick-off that I shall attempt to reply to with as much vigour as you Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hail! Kevin's Watch! Are you in need?


Ah, yes. Covenant arrives in the Land, and promptly begins freaking out and saying "Hellfire" a lot. This sets a precedent for much of the rest of the First Chronicles. That expression gets really annoying after a while... Rolling Eyes

Another annoying habit of Covenant's: any time someone asks him, "Are you well?" he starts repeating, "Well? Well?" and then proceeds to yell something about being a leper outcast unclean. And then he starts snubbing people and being rude to them. Rolling Eyes

*sigh* Ah, Covenant. I like him, but he really gets on my nerves at first. Rolling Eyes

~Foamy~
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:52 pm    Post subject: In Defense of TC??? Reply with quote

I had forgotten that Lena, our beautiful tour guide to The Land, had just sworn the Oath of Peace and was two years away from attempting to become a student at the Loresraat.

Spoiler: while it is very difficult for folks who have already read the Chrons to stay within the lines of these two chapters I feel it important to note, in hindsight, that Lena must come from the best stock the Stonedowner's have to offer. After generations of her people having to fight "nail and tooth" in barren, inhospitable wastelands, relying only rhadhamaerl (stone-lore) to survive this AWESOME Ritual of Desecration, Lena's family is truly the toughest and the fittest. Atiaran, her mother, studied at the Loresraat as well and her father holds a very important position of power in Mithil Stonedown. The strength of this stock factors in, very powerfully, in these first three books, especially when we see what's to become of Lena's character, Atrian's strength and her father's resolve--and then we meet Elena...ouch!

DespoilerVery Happy: Technically Covenant doesn't say "Hellfire" in these two chapts, he does utter a "bloody hell", but is in too much shock of what is happening to him to phase the "Hellfire" he sees in Drool's eyes. As Foamy points out: much Hellfire to come...Kevin's Watch is definitely the chapter Jay (kevinswatch: our board op) got the phrase "I'm a leper" from. The infamous "Don't touch me!" starts, for real, right here. Dream or no as Lena attempts to aid TC his leprosy is still very real and really his only defense against the being preceived as the second coming of Berek Halfhand. He is very sick, but will Lena or anyone else understand this? Dream or no TC's vision of what The Land must have looked like after the Ritual--is almost too real. We only hear about that vision in an instant and SRD hits us SO hard with it that it transcends The Land and our world going straight into our dire imaginings of nuclear winter.

High Lord Kevin did warn the people of The Land to seek shelter in the "outer lands" to survive this awesome catastrophe--and I've always found it very intriguing that he had to enlist Foul's help in order to enact this desperate holocaust...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 8:05 pm    Post subject: IS TC A SEER? Reply with quote

He sees this vision of the Land after the ROD while on Kevin's Watch -- he'll get another vision later on in the book of him on his hands and knees eating grass, which happens later in TPTP. Is he a seer or is this just Foul playing with his head? And, yes, couldn't you just give him a big slap on the butt for his rudeness to everyone he meets???
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It strikes me how Drool resembles Gollum and Lord Foul Sauron. Foul is a devious dark lord entity whose successful posing as a good guy has caused much damage and who has been defeated in the past but intends to plan really well this time. In addition to the living in a cave and a some similarities in appearance both Drool and Gollum have happened to find an artifact of great power. But Gollum never learned the true power of the One Ring while it was in his possession and even had he had he could never have been a threat to Sauron. This is an example of Donaldson taking the now-archetypical creations of Tolkien to entirely new directions while less talented authors write the same thing all over again with superficial modifications.

The difference between Drool and Foul is marked. Drool is very straightforward; Foul has a mysterious plan going on. Drool has a limited vocabulary and obviously is not very intelligent; Foul uses fluently rare words and archaisms. He has been around for a while. Drool's stink is evil stereotype sulfur and rot; Foul smells of attar, a smell that reminded Covenant of funerals. Drool lives in a cave; Foul took Covenant to a high place which echoes Satan and Jesus in the Bible.

But Lord Foul as a gray cloud reminds me of an entirely different portion of the Bible. There God leading the Israelites through the desert to the Promised Land appeared to the them as smoke by day and fire by night. We will have a lot more of Lord Foul being eerily like the God of Old Testament later on.

I think Lord Foul's attempted tempting of Covenant was not very proficient. He sounds like he doesn't quite remember how to talk to people after a thousand years. He goes on a ranting tangent on a subject that means nothing to Covenant even if it helps flesh out the backstory and is way too contemptious even though it fits his epithet. It is very obvious he is evil. Only a person with no moral spine or who was very desperate would have succumbed to his offer. Perhaps Foul underestimated Covenant or just wanted to toy with him.

After all of this blue sky and Lena's coming feels like a pleasant and strange dream. If there had not been the repeated names of Berek and Kevin it would have been easy to assume the earlier episode had been an unconnected one, so different it feels. Besides Covenant's attitude only the fleeting vision of the Land after the Ritual of Desecration and the arduous climb down are there in the way of darker spots, for the moment.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that Foul going on and on about the RoD to TC is also about bravado. It's akin to two men summing up their favorite sports teams, if you know what I mean. Foul is trash-talking to his adversary, which TC obviously is. He is trying to strike fear into TC so that TC will slip up or, rather, despair. He tells a story that TC knows nothing about, shows TC a wasted, ruined Land, says "See? This is what happened last time someone tried to fight me!" , promises TC what he desires most - his health, and uses his most frightening and evil voice and mysterious form so that TC cannot even picture his opponent. Foul does it all to psych-out TC because he knows that TC can destroy any hope of Foul ever leaving the Land. This has a duel purpose to the story because it sets the stage for the relationship and also gives us the backstory that we as readers need.

Something in Invitation to Betrayal stopped me, however. Foul says
Quote:
Therefore he met me in that cavern from which I have rescued you - Kiril Threndor, Heart of Thunder.
Is that Mount Thunder?
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the insides of Mt. Thunder, yes...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I thought it was but had some doubt. Embarassed Very Happy
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: In Defense of TC??? Reply with quote

danlo wrote:
The infamous "Don't touch me!" starts, for real, right here.


Infamous is right. I still cringe whenever I hear that phrase. Rolling Eyes

caamora wrote:
I think that Foul going on and on about the RoD to TC is also about bravado. It's akin to two men summing up their favorite sports teams, if you know what I mean. Foul is trash-talking to his adversary, which TC obviously is. He is trying to strike fear into TC so that TC will slip up or, rather, despair. He tells a story that TC knows nothing about, shows TC a wasted, ruined Land, says "See? This is what happened last time someone tried to fight me!" , promises TC what he desires most - his health, and uses his most frightening and evil voice and mysterious form so that TC cannot even picture his opponent. Foul does it all to psych-out TC because he knows that TC can destroy any hope of Foul ever leaving the Land. This has a duel purpose to the story because it sets the stage for the relationship and also gives us the backstory that we as readers need.


Mm...I think you're right.

And I also noticed the similarities between TCTC and LOTR. In fact, the first time I read LFB, I thought it was a LOTR ripoff. But the truth is, although there are many similarities, the stories are very, very different. Tolkien and SRD may have started off with similar ideas, but they took them in completely different directions.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Don't touch me! Don't you wish someone had washed his mouth out with soap or given him a good spanking whenever he said that? Where's a good dominatrix when you need her?? Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A DOMINATRIX???? This guy beats up himself more than enough! But if you need a good one, her name is Brutal Betty and she has a floor show where she beats up midgets at the Space Nightclub in Detroit! sick, just sick Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a point there, albeit a very sharp point, OW! Foamy and I were chatting about TC on MSN and remarked that ol' TC does sit on the "pity-pot" more than his fair share. Throw in what you just said about beatting himself up and you almost have a classic picture of a recovering alcoholic or drug addict. And if "acceptance" is to be the theme of the 3rd Chrons: then someone is working the 12 Steps! I won't say who! Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee! I didn't realize everyone hated the phrase "Don't touch me!" I guess I'll have to change my signature! Laughing

How's this?
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not bad! Smile

Boy, you guys are doing a great job here! I was thinking over the weekend about archetypes in SRD's writings, but I hadn't thought of Tolkien's characters having become archetypes in fantasy writing. Good call!

Hmm, TC moving through the 12 steps -- you might have something there.... I'm with you guys -- one of the most annoying attributes of TC's character is his tendency to feel sorry for himself. He masks it with rage, just like many depressed people do. There is no sense, here, of the human being who offered a blind beggar his wedding ring and a place to sleep, nor will there be an inkling of that human being again for many, many chapters.

I've been doing some reading about verbal abuse lately, and I have learned that it takes *much* longer for the psyche to recover from verbal and emotional abuse than it takes the body to recover from physical abuse. TC's psyche has taken a serious pounding over the past few years, from the diagnosis of his disease to his shunning by his family and his neighbors. Joan's divorcing him could arguably be termed emotional abuse, and his neighbors' shunning is also verbal or emotional abuse. Now Lena is being nice to him -- so, in the way of a depressed person, he is trying to drive her away before she can hurt him the way he has been hurt so many times in the past. No wonder he's so annoying....
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 9:56 pm    Post subject: three women Reply with quote

When rereading these chapters the thing that I had forgotten about and surprised me was Lena's courage. She sees someone fighting a cloud and runs to the rescue. She says that she decided that a little help from her right away was more valuable than running to the stonedown and getting more help for later. This amazed me on two levels. I was really surprised by her raw courage, and also surprised by her lack in common sense, for lack of a better term. She is what? 16 and completely untrained in use of power but she runs to the rescue anyway...The closest analogy I can think of from our world is an unarmed person charging full tilt boogie into a hostage situation. Very brave and potentially disastrous for all involved. That got me thinking about her mother. Atiaran does the same thing at the Celebration of Spring. Charges right in to fight the urviles even though her duty is to make sure that message gets to the Lords, and what difference does her skills make anyway in this situation? She is very brave but nearly causes the deaths of herself and TC. They would have both died except for the Unfettered one. And she does the same thing when calling Hile Troy to the Land. She gets a new insight into Lore and instead of waiting for the Lord's arrival to advise and help her, she charges right into things and dies as a result. And it started me thinking about Lena's daughter. Elena does the same sort of thing at Revelwood when she decides to chase after the Seventh Ward instead of accompanying the warward to war, where her primary duty lies. And then on her quest, when her duty (as she is reminded by TC of all people) lies in returning to the Council and taking their advice, and she goes right ahead and uses the ward anyway, with horrible counsequences for the Land. What's with these three women?? Lots to admire, but don't they seem to bring their own doom down on their heads?? So much raw courage, so untempered by patience or wisdom. Do they think too much of their own abilities, or do they just not pause to think??
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, now I'm confused too. And all three women swore the Oath of Peace...maybe someone can answer this better than I, but I can think of some possible justifications. Perhaps Lena came only thinking to succor the fallen man with some inherent knowledge that it was the cloud that was evil not the man. Perhaps Atiaran felt the etheral beauty and purpose of the Wraiths was so important to the lifeblood of The Land that someone, anyone, had to take action to preserve them. Perhaps Elena felt that three (four?) lords were enough to aid the Warward, but that the Warward was doomed anyway if she could not find the means to face Foul and the pieces of the Illearth Stone head on. Amok was an enticing piped piper, anyway.

I'm confused about Lena too, especially going up there so quickly, not only did she really not know what she would find but she stated that KW was avoided as a place of evil omen. And yes we are jumping way ahead but as far as Atirian is concerned I agree with you on your central question: what's more important delivering a message (and possibly a man) that could save or doom The Land or saving the Wraiths? As much as I love the Wraiths I would have to choose the former. The message must be more important if she's dragging a bumbling, bitching, unbeliever (who raped her daughter) half way across The Land. Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it ever occurred to Lena the man could be evil. She was so young and sweet and innocent and had never encountered a nasty person outside ancient legends. I think she is the diametric opposite of Lord Foul of the previous chapter, which gives a nice contrast and a vision of how different beings the Land holds. I think Donaldson put in that talk of suru-pa-maerl to reflect her approach to life. She takes it as it comes and fully expects it to be good.
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