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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 3 & 4
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Vain
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a look here for the source. It has one or two other interesting bits of info Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That IS interesting...who made that? Do you know?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would appear that this bright chap is responsible Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very cool link Vain, I've seen that b4, very useful stuff
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should invite this Hans fellow to the Watch! If he's not already here, that is....
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:50 am    Post subject: It's not just me then! Reply with quote

Vain wrote:
I am unfortunately - or unfortunately - unable to draw comparisons with Tolkien as I haven't read LOTR et al. I figure I should do so at some stage Smile


Embarassed

I've read a fair bit of fantasy (Dragonlance, Eddings, David Gemmell) and yet I have read no Tolkien. I tried The Hobbit a few times at school and never made it past the first chapter. Same with LotR. Now with the films out, I should really make an effort this time around.

My plan at the mo is to finish re-reading the Second Chronicles, whilst joining in the discussions of the First Chronicles, and then move on to Tad Williams's "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" series. I could do LotR after that, but I might be all fantasy-epic-binged-out by then. Crazy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:17 am    Post subject: Lord Foul's motivations Reply with quote

Vain wrote:
I figure that LF doesn't interfere with Drool using the staff of Law as he (LF) is still too weak - the RoD must have severely depleted his resources.


That is one possibility. The other that comes to my mind is spoiler fodder unfortunately.

Spoiler:

In TPTP, when Lord Trevor fights the Cavewights in the entrance tunnel to Revelstone and feels the power of the Staff of Law, he says "..perhaps it is dead Kevin himself who wields the staff on Foul's behalf, so that the Despiser need not personally use a power not apt for his control". This suggests that Lord Foul can use the Staff of Law but not without effort.

We later find out that he commanded the spectre of Elena to use the Staff, which could be because he is concentrating on building his armies with the Illearth Stone. So I think Foul's acceptance of Drool using the Staff is a combination of this fact and Vain's suggestion.



Vain wrote:

As for warning the Lords about drool - it's really a Catch 22 situation. If they don't halt drool rockworms plans, then drool will rule and destroy the Land - possibly taking LF out as well. If they do halt him then LF will be able to recover sufficiently to let loose his own madness. Tough call.

So - perhaps it is initially self preservation that drives LF.


This is essentially what LF conveys to Covenant in his message. He says (about Drool) that:

Quote:

"He searches for the Illearth Stone. If he becomes its master, there will be woe for low and high alike until Time itself falls.


The use of "high" suggests that even those with power will be at the mercy of Drool, Lord Foul himself for example. This is plausible considering his weakened state.

More importantly, by sending the Lords on a quest to destroy Drool and recover the Staff of Law, they gift the Illearth Stone to Lord Foul and this *is* a tool that he can wield freely, with devastating results.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject: The simularities twixt LOTR and TC are (I think) purposeful Reply with quote

I think the simularities between LOTR an 1&2TC are there on purpose. I wish I had a SD quote to back it up, but I think there's clues enough that 1&2TC are a kind of retelling of LOTR - or LOTR archetype - with a different slant to it.

I think the use of the archtypical LOTR character types are there specifically to recall them, conciously or unconciously, in the reader's mind, and thus set up certain expectations of what is to come next - because we've seen this before. We know what part TC is SUPPOSED to be playing.

Except that he refuses. In fact, he refuses to believe that any of it is real. 1TC is all about TC's journey from an impotent leper to a potent redeemer.

That is why I think 2TC is so powerful - more powerful than the first series.

Tolkien defined the archtypical fantasy epic, and with it. a large number of arctypical characters and places.

1TC is "what if the hero in a Tolkien epic refused to play along? What if he was a stupporn, self-doubful, nasty sonofabitch?"

2TC is "What if our nasty anti-hero, having learned to be heroric, is placed back in the same situation, but this time is rendered impotent?"

LOTR is "willing, potent hero"
1TC is "unwilling, potent hero"
2TC is "willing, impotent hero"

Without the known structure of the first, the second cannot exist.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to me this is an enormous stretch .. and in which case following that kind of rationale the LotR's can be parralleled to any written work that possesses a hero .. potent or impotent ..

Quote:
LOTR is "willing, potent hero"
1TC is "unwilling, potent hero"
2TC is "willing, impotent hero
"

this equasion .. isnt really accurate .. Frodo was willing [well mostly] but not entirely potent .. he was no match for the powers that faced him .. and in the end .. he succumbed to the ring .. if not for the presence of Gollum and his greed the ring would never have been defeated.

Secondly .. in the 1st chrons .. TC is unwilling but he is also not potent ..

and finally in the 2nd chrons .. TC does become willing to assist the needs of the Land .. so much so that he sacrifices his self to that end .. but I dont really think he was impotent .. He had the power necessary to defeat Foul .. he knew it .. once he realised it himself ..

I think parrallels to LotR's are flawed .. sure there are broad similarities in theme .. genre .. but it ends there imo.

Welcome Wink Very Happy by the way .. be welcome and true!!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodo was potent because he was able to resist the Ring right up to the edge of the Cracks of Doom.

Perhaps I should say "Frodo/Sam" as a composite character, as they support each other throughout their quest.... but that's just handwaving. There's never really any doubt throughout LOTR that Frodo will take the Ring and carry out his mission - it's just a question of "how".

Same with all the other characters in LOTR - they know their part in the story and they all work dilligently to carry it out. Noble/heroic characters are so to their core. Evil characters never stray from the path of evil. Even Gollum, the most complex charcter in terms of morality, is true to his purpose.

That's not a knock on Tolkien - he was working in the realm of myth and archtype. There's not a lot of room for postmodern deconstructionism in a mythic legend. His genious was being able to write myth and make it personable - read the Turin legend in the Simarillion for a mythic story told in a classical mythic voice - not the same read at all, is it?

But it is thanks to Tolkien laying this backdrop that we can get TC.

SD uses the same elements of LOTR to define the bounderies of the Land. It sets up expectations and lays a framework. The moment Lena tells TC of his resemblance to Berek Halfhand and the power ensconced in his wedding band - plus we've already met Lord Foul (Sauron) and his subhuman pawn Drool (Gollum)- we know where the story is going.

It has to be that way. We have to have these expectations, because SD is going to play with them. He contrasts what we expect TC to do with what he really does. He has all the potency he needs to take on Lord Foul, but refuses to believe it.

Take for example the scene with the Wraiths and the ur-viles. By this point, TC has already used his ring to disrupt a Drool-storm, and to chastise the leaders of the woodhelven. We know he has power. We know he can blast the ur-viles and save the wraiths - he is potent beyond measure. But he doesn't do it, because he doesn't believe he can.

2TC is the exact opposite. TC spends the majority of 1TC being convinced that the Land is in fact real, is very precious, and that HE has the power to save it. In 2TC, TC shows up with the understanding right from the first that the Land is real and that it is HIS job to save it - and then Foul envenoms him, causing him to steadily lose control over his ring, to the point where it threatens the very nature of the Land - thus denying TC his potency.

Note how SD uses TC's leprosy as a metaphor for his potency! In 1TC, hurtloam cures his leprosy, rendering him potent where he expects to be impotent. In 2TC, earthpower has been corrupted and so his leprosy cannot be cured - rendering him impotent when he expects to be potent.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
SD uses the same elements of LOTR to define the bounderies of the Land. It sets up expectations and lays a framework. The moment Lena tells TC of his resemblance to Berek Halfhand and the power ensconced in his wedding band - plus we've already met Lord Foul (Sauron) and his subhuman pawn Drool (Gollum)- we know where the story is going.

I just have to disagree with your comparison here. If you want to compare Drool to someone in LOTR I would choose Saruman, because Drool obviously is someone with his own agenda which is totally destroyed by his association with a more powerful evil.

Quote:

Note how SD uses TC's leprosy as a metaphor for his potency! In 1TC, hurtloam cures his leprosy, rendering him potent where he expects to be impotent. In 2TC, earthpower has been corrupted and so his leprosy cannot be cured - rendering him impotent when he expects to be potent.

I believe that TC's leprosy is not a metaphor for his potency. I see his leprosy as only the root cause of his lack/rejection of his natural empathy. Because of his leprosy he has been rejected by everyone he knows and thus he has rejected his own sense of empathy to protect himself from that rejection. This is his real problem in the Land. Because he does not want to allow himself to feel anything for the people of the land he picks easiest way out and chooses not to believe in the Land at all. From this stems all his choices in the Land, for although his problem is empathy he continues to blame his leprosy for them all through the first chronicles. He also is not very good at making logical choices because his feelings keep getting in the way. At the end of TPTP when he confronts the despiser he is only capable of doing so because he has found that his inner world (the Land) has given him the strength to withstand the outer worlds rejection of him. This means that he can believe in himself i.e. he can believe in the Land and at the same time he can unbelieve the Land as a separate reality.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Then I find this interesting :

Spoiler:

Samadhi=Sanskrit for Self Collectedness
Sheol = Hebrew for Hell

Moksha=Hindu for Enlightenment
Jehannum = Kipling's way of spelling the Hebrew Gehenna which means Hell

Turiya=Sanskrit for Free of thoughts
Herem = Hebrew for Destruction


Actually,
Spoiler:
Herem is Hebrew for taboo or excommunication.

And Gehinom would be the Hebrew way of spelling Hell. Jehannum is pretty close to it.

And Sheol is an older term referring to an underground residence of the dead.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Who picked TC? Reply with quote

I know this has been raised before but I couldn't find a precise answer:

Quote:
Quote:
KonfusedofKettering: Hi Stephen

Can I take you to task on your reply toBizzaster in last months GI. You said

"Come on. The Creator in this story is supposed to be a humane guy. We know this because he does things like offer Covenant a life in the Land--and because he doesn't *Appoint* anybody (he doesn't deprive people like Covenant, or the people of the Land, of their right to make their own choices). He didn't pick Covenant: Lord Foul did. If Covenant is enabled to live out his life in the Land (complete with white gold), LF would eventually have to come up with entirely new strategies, strategies in which the Creator might have no "say" at all--and I would be writing an utterly different story. The Creator certainly wouldn't go around *Appointing* new champions."

I quickly scanned through the First chronicles to refresh my memory. In his various encounters with the creator at the start of LFB we don't see anything that would ammount to an appointment but on Kevins watch LF tells Covenant that his enemy chose him to meet this Doom. Foul to my memory has never been a liar as far as his opponents are concerned, his dishonesty is more in what he omits than what he reveals and he has no power over his intended victims if he is not credible. So one tends to believe him on this point.

At the end of TPTP the creator admits that he chose Covenant but otherwise left hime free to choose his own path. Covenant certainly isn't appointed in the way the Elohim appoint there own where by the apoointed must meed the need of their appointment or pay the consequences so in failing to stop Vane's purpose Findail must pay teh price by becoming part of the new staff of law.

Does the creators chosing of Covenant count as inhumane. I don't think you can fully reconcile it as a humane act but the creator is in a deparate position here. He is in his own way making a similar kind of bargain as Covenant does several times in the story except he's trying to balance his reponsibilities to Covenant and to the people and creatures of his creation. Covenant's bargains are to avoid any responsability to the land.

May I take it taht this lapse was due to an urgent need to pack.


[SRD] Clearly, I don't see this as a "lapse" in the same way that you do. And if there *is* a lapse involved, it probably has more to do with my phrasing in the GI than in the point I was trying to make about the Creator's nature. I grant that using words like "choose" and "chose" to describe the actions of both the Creator and the Despiser encourages--or at least permits--confusion.... The Creator chooses Covenant in the sense that any affirmation represents a voluntary leap of faith. How is that not a humane act?


Is the intended point that LF reaches out and chooses (actively) a participant and at that point the Creator/Beggar can choose (passively) whether or not to allow that participant to be dragged into the Land?

I became extremely confused when I too read the reply to Bizzmaster which said that the Creator didn't pick Covenant.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:57 pm    Post subject: "his power waned" Reply with quote

When Foul is talking to Covenant about Kevin, he says "When his armies faltered and his power waned, he lost himself in despair..."

Do you think "his power waned" is a general statement about Foul gaining the upper hand in the war, or is it a statement about Kevin specifically? Certainly if Keven felt his power waning for whatever reason, it might push him to try an act of desperation, like say, a Ritual of Desecration.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Lord Foul's Bane Chapter 3 was wrote:
The creature jabbed his face toward the ceiling and cried, "Mine! My Staff! You saw. I called him. You saw!"

Covenant followed the red eyes upward, but he could see nothing there except the dizzy chiaroscuro of the clustered stone spikes.

"You had aid," the deep voice said. "The Staff was too hard a matter for you. You would have destroyed it in simple irritation, had I not taught you some of its uses. And my aid has its price. Do whatever else you wish. I claim this prize. It belongs to me."

The creature's rage subsided, as if he had suddenly remembered some secret advantage. "My Staff," he muttered darkly. "I have it. You are not safe."

"You threaten me?" The deep voice bristled, and its dangers edged closer to the surface. "Watch and ward, Drool Rockworm! Your doom grows upon you. Behold! I have begun!"

There was a low, grinding noise, as of great teeth breaking against each other, and a chilling mist intervened between Covenant and Drool, gathered and swirled and thickened until Drool was blocked from Covenant's sight. At first, the mist glowed with the light of the burning stones, but as it swirled the red faded into the dank, universal gray of fogs. The vile reek melted into a sweeter smell--attar, the odor of funerals. Despite the blindness of the mist, Covenant felt that he was no longer in Drool's cavern.


The sickening sweet smell of attar, the enveloping grey fog: I like how Lord Foul is presented as an insidious, mysterious, almost seductive force, as it makes him scarier.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Lord Foul's Bane Chapter 4 was wrote:
Gritting his resolve, Covenant turned and knelt against the parapet. With his chest braced on the rim, he forced himself to look.

"This is the Land," Lena said joyfully, as if the outspread earth had a power to thrill her. "It reaches far beyond seeing to the north, west, and east, though the old songs say that High Lord Kevin stood here and saw the whole of the Land and all its people. So this place is named Kevin's Watch. Is it possible that you do not know this?"

Despite the coolness of the breeze, Covenant was sweating. Vertigo knuckled his temples, and only the hard edge of the stone against his heart kept it under control. "I don't know anything," he groaned into the open fall.

Lena glanced at him anxiously, then after a moment turned back to the Land. Pointing with one slim arm to the northwest, she said, "There is the Mithil River. Our Stonedown stands beside it, but hidden behind this mountain. It flows from the Southron Range behind us to join the Black River. That is the northern bound of the South Plains, where the soil is not generous and few people live. There are only five Stonedowns in the South Plains. But in this north-going line of hills live some Woodhelvennin.

"East of the hills are the Plains of Ra." H er voice sparkled as she went on: "That is the home of the wild free horses, the Ranyhyn, and their tenders the Ramen. For fifty leagues across the Plains they gallop, and serve none that they do not themselves choose.

"Ah, Thomas Covenant," she sighed, "it is my dream to see those horses. Most of my people are too content--they do not travel, and have not seen so much as a Woodhelven. But I wish to walk the Plains of Ra, and see the horses galloping."

After a long pause, she resumed: "These mountains are the Southron Range. Behind them are the Wastes, and the Grey Desert. No life or passage is there; all the Land is north and west and east from us. And we stand on Kevin's Watch, where the highest of the Old Lords stood at the last battle, before the coming of the Desolation. Our people remember that, and avoid the Watch as a place of ill omen. But Atiaran my mother brought me here to teach me the Land And in two years I will be old enough to attend the Loresraat and learn for myself, as my mother did. Do you know," she said proudly, "my mother has studied with the Lorewardens?" She looked at Covenant as if she expected him to be impressed. But then her eyes fell, and she murmured, "But you are a Lord, and know all these things. You listen to my talk so you may laugh at my ignorance."

Under the spell of her voice, and the pressure of his vertigo, he had a momentary vision of what the Land must have looked like after Kevin had unleashed the Ritual of Desecration. Behind the luminous morning, he saw hills ripped barren, soil blasted, rank water trickling through vile fens in the riverbed, and over it all a thick gloom of silence--no birds, no insects, no animals, no people, nothing living to raise one leaf or hum or growl or finger against the damage. Then sweat ran into his eyes, blurred them like tears. He pulled away from the view and seated himself again with his back to the wall. "No," he murmured to Lena, thinking, You don't understand. "I did all my laughing--long ago."


Lena's enthusiasm has a spell for me as well as for Covenant. I can feel that the Land is a nurturing place, and that it is vulnerable to destruction. Already I can see the value in protecting it, defending it.
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