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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
Did you miss the decade of being a dick? ...

[...]


"Being a dick" is with respect a rather subjective comment. ...

[...]


OTOH, "being banned" is rather objective.

And so, by cross-referencing the two states-of-being, one might see that they confirm each other through their mutual coherence.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
Did you miss the decade of being a dick? ...

[...]


"Being a dick" is with respect a rather subjective comment. ...

[...]


OTOH, "being banned" is rather objective.

And so, by cross-referencing the two states-of-being, one might see that they confirm each other through their mutual coherence.

Much as I'd hate to pour cold water on one of your vanishingly rare personal pronouncements Wos, as I suspect - or at least bloody well hope - you know, that's pure sophistry.

Presumably by such logic, statements such as the subjective "All Jews are scum and not fit to live" and the objective "Millions of Jews got killed in the Holocaust" are equally self-supporting and entirely validate/confirm each other through their "mutual coherence" too? Gee, who knew it'd be so easy to justify stuff?

Maybe copy n paste is a better way forward for some after all...

Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
With that said, let's be blunt. Cail was not the most tactful person here. But the man made good, cogent, supported points. He was acerbic. He was offensive. But his positions were well-supported, and he forced others to defend their positions. I've said before that steel sharpens steel. Cail cut me down more times than I can count, but he also made me consider my positions.

Any political discussion worth its salt needs that kind of foil. I can never begin to be that person. I don't have the time to put into it, nor do I want to be the fly in the ointment that he was. I'd like to have him back. I don't know that he'd agree to it, and I know that he'd never be welcomed back regardless of the enormous legacy he has here.

But we're definitely diminished by his absence.
TF wrote:
This. Absolutely. In spades.

And let us NOT cease with the Cail discussions - at least from a generalised point of view. Are some really saying that "Thou shalt not discuss certain topics"? Isn't that attempted agenda control and thus completely pernicious? As the Tank mod himself said:-
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Truthfully, I don't disagree with you. In fact, if I were just a regular poster here I would be speaking out about the ban, myself.
As I said before, an unsurprising and completely justifiable personal opinion from someone of a libertarian persuasion.

Okay if some are getting antsy and all "move on or get arrested" about Cail's banning specifically, it's surely perfectly justified against any defensible yardstick to generalise the "censorship for the alleged greater community good" issue
[/quote]

QFT!!!

More on topic. Abortions bad! Off topic. Orange man good!! Censorship bad!![/quote]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe you guys are still talking about this!

Here's my 2 cents. Lessons I have learned:

It's okay to call Cail: an asshole, a dick, a douche bag.

It's okay to call me: a racist, a troll, a fucking fake.

It's NOT okay to call Sky a tosser.

That is all.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be fair, Zee... it's apparently only okay to go utterly and blatantly ad hominem on someone's ass and call them an asshole, a dick and a douche bag once they've been banned.

A) Very courageous and B) no double standards there at all. Nope, not a one. Not even the slightest trace.

Move along now... nothing to see...
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This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to be specifically anti-authoritative. So once you tell me not to mention something, it triggers something in my psyche that says "Oh you have to bring this up now"

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
He got away with being a dick for years .


Skyweir wrote:
Oh and getting personal does not a great contribution make .. its not a value add. The Watch is not made better by ad hominem attacks .. they dontefly in debates . Its lLAZY and INARTICULATE


Skyweir wrote:
And hypothetically lets say Cail does return . he will be required to refrain from ad hominem attacks and being a douche bag right?


The lack of self-awareness displayed here is simply staggering. Sky, do you not realize how often you say things like the quotes above? Have you read Vraith's posts?

Skyweir wrote:
Have any of you actually talked to Cail and asked him what he wants?


I have, via Facebook. To summarize the conversation, he knew exactly what he was doing.

Given the tone here, and the general contempt shown to him, his style, and his positions by the intelligentsia, he knew he was on thin ice for quite some time. He was quite aware that his mere presence here was a thorn in many people's sides, as has been made crystal clear by their posts just prior to and after his ban. He was also aware that they would use whatever means possible to silence him. In his words, copied from the conversation, and slightly rearranged for form:

From beyond the ban, Cail wrote:
So I decided to make a point about the fascism of the left, and their desire to eliminate their opposition. I discovered a thread in the Close (where I never go) about political correctness. Seeing who was posting there, I decided that I could bait them into a conversation, then reel them into the Tank. I made sure I used a lot of buzzwords like "fascism", "wrongthink", etc. When the topic jumped to the Tank, it sort of naturally ended up in the MAGA-hat thread. The usual suspects tore into that kid, and continued to do so even after the entire story turned out to be a lie. But that's their type, right? People like that will never admit they're wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

And then came, "tosser". The word's been used by TF and (I think) Peter more than once. It's not part of my lexicon by any stretch. But I picked it intentionally because it's so damn innocuous and really kind of funny, especially since it refers to a man masturbating, and Sky's not one. It was literally the most ridiculous thing I could think of. But knowing Av's disdain for me, and Ali's blind rage, I figured it'd do the trick. Boy howdy did it ever. I'd been communicating with Sky via PM for a few days to assure her that I meant nothing personal (and that's the truth, she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and her style is awfully dismissive, but I have to give her credit for showing up no matter how many times she's proven wrong), and I think she got that.

The ban took longer than I'd expected, given the hard-on Av had for me. I have to admit, I kinda breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the screen that morning. But I did enjoy watching the fireworks. I expected the victory laps from Ali. I expected Av's "he did this to himself" line (and I totally did, just not the way he thought). I did not expect Jay showing up to call me an asshole after I was banned. That was absolutely classic, and put the proverbial icing on the cake. With an unlimited amount of time, a thesaurus, and George Orwell himself ghostwriting my posts, I could never have made a more graphic point about the left's silencing of dissenting speech. 30-some thousand posts, and that's the best legacy I could possibly have.

It's kind of a shame that I can't access my PMs. I've saved some gems from Av, Danlo, Luci, Ali, Wayfriend, and a few others that put the lie about this not being about content to rest. Danlo's are hysterical due to how fucking nuts he went.

Oh, and thank everyone who took up my cause. I'm connected with a few here on FB, but the others......Y'all rock.


I asked him about coming back:

From beyond the ban, Cail wrote:
You know there's no way they'd do that. They simply lack the self-reflection. My style is my style, and it's not going to change. I absolutely regret a few of my barbs, particularly the "go fuck a sheep" thing. That was just dumb, and it never should have been posted. I miss the conversations, and it kills me that I missed the shitshow in Virginia, but the powers that be are so convinced they're right that having an apostate like me there is intolerable. I'd come back if asked, but I know damn well that won't happen. And I'm cool with that.


So there it is, from the man himself. I have to say that I'm in awe of what he did. I suspected that he knew what he was doing, but never would have imagined this.

Kudos Cail.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh Fallen .. I see it is absolutely pointless discussing anything with you. Your mind is set. Fine.

Z you yourself pinned Cail as the aggressive element that you claimed did not represent the aggressive I perceive arising from the right

And I dont need to hide behind the banning to say WHAT I SAID to Cail here or in our PMs period.

But I think it literally hilarious that you believe that Cail was banned for that one time ....... he called me a tosser. 😉

Though I suspect all your bluff and bluster is entirely disingenuous.

Guess youre not as smart as I once thought 🙄
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, I can't find a post where Cail is called a douche bag. I searched for the word with him as the poster, thinking maybe he quoted it while responding. That only brought up times he called someone a douche. Actually, you, Z. Amusingly, he also said this to wf:
Cail wrote:
]You refer to Zar as a douche-bag and then accuse him of an ad hominem attack? Aside from the fact that your namecalling is uncalled for and not welcome here, that's just funny.
It doesn't mean "A little bit like iron." Laughing

And public figures were called "douche canoe". Ah, such an imp!

But what I'd like to know is if we change the name of the forum to "Cult of Cail"? All hail the great god Cail! It even rhymes. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Sadly, I can't find a post where Cail is called a douche bag.
Literally 10 posts prior to yours.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky, I did not say that is why he got banned. Read a little closer. I said it is not OK to call you a tosser. Which is true.

Fist, I'm not sure why the search did not find it, but it was sky who called him a douche and a dick. Do we have two sets of standards? Or is it okay to call people names if they deserve it?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your being intentionally obtuse .. if my saying whatever you say caused someone to quit visiting and posting .. sure itd be a close equivalency.

Watchers over the past decade apparently subject to personal attacks, and running down gets as weary for them as TF said just today ... it gets for him HAVING to read through all that crap ... and similar such tactics.

There are Watchers who dont post here FOR NO OTHER REASON than that behaviour. This a community for ALL OF ITS MEMBERS its not a CAILDOM or a ZEEDOM or a SKYDOM ffs. I dont control outcomes here, neither do any of you OBVIOUSLY or you would have saved all this whiny shit for discussions pre ban. This all amounts to trolling .. pure and simple.

The WATCH made its call .. but up, move on or dont... thats YOUR CALL. There are places I am sure that welcome senseless, pointless trolling. Its done.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Sadly, I can't find a post where Cail is called a douche bag.
Literally 10 posts prior to yours.
That explains why it didn't come up in my search. Obviously, Cail didn't quote that and respond to it. I guess this might be a separate discussion. Is it more or less acceptable to call someone who is not here a name as it is to call someone you are in a "discussion" with here a name?

And this, from Jan 21, 2018, explains why I didn't see it ten posts ago:
Fist and Faith wrote:
"Yup and thats what spin looks like" is not questioning. That's dismissing. Based on "But things might go bad in the future." Trump makes himself look bad in legitimate ways on his own. There's no need to dismiss an actual accomplishment by resorting to that kind of "evidence".

Of course, if the goal is to tear him down, regardless of the method, regardless of what he actually does and does not do, and regardless of what that kind of attitude does to the US, then you're doing great! You go, Girl! Very Happy But I find your tactics distasteful, your honesty lacking, and your condescension insulting, so I won't be reading your posts in the Tank any longer. See you on the outside.


Zarathustra wrote:
Fist, I'm not sure why the search did not find it, but it was sky who called him a douche and a dick. Do we have two sets of standards? Or is it okay to call people names if they deserve it?
I think your second question is impossible to deal with, since many people will disagree about who deserves it.

Your first question is the crux of the matter. What are the choices regarding name calling? At least a few come to mind.

1) Absolutely no name calling is allowed.
2) Anybody can call anybody anything they want at any time.
3) We have a list of names that are not permitted.
4) We agree that, while it may not be a capital offense to call someone something that cannot possibly be considered appropriate, someone might get carried away, and the Watch would be a lesser place if choice #2 was the rule here.

Others?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the issue Fist. Sky's called plenty of people names. Vraith, in his quotes of my posts, has manipulated my username with the intent of being insulting. Wayfriend's signature calls this website a haven for white supremacists. All those people share common beliefs, and none of them have faced any consequences.

Whether or not people want to admit it, there's an obvious double standard. Based on my conversation with Cail, he certainly saw it and - rightly or wrongly - felt that as long as their behavior went unchecked, he felt no need to reign things in.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres a thought

.. why not lobby for my banning because of my established record of abusive behaviour. 🤷‍♀️

Fairs fair 😉

And list all the people who Ive
1. Abused
2. Caused to leave the Watch
3. Are the reason people dont post here.

I am even willing to assist you with it
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, for godsake. Rolling Eyes

Why don't one of you guys make a separate thread where you can all go and complain amongst yourselves about Cail's banning and how nice it was when you had the place all to yourselves? Maybe Hashi would even pin it for you. You could dress it up with some black bunting...maybe a remembrance wreath or some poetry.

Then the rest of us could ignore it and get on with having reasonable, rational discussions.

(Sarge, I thanked you for your last post. And I'll try to keep my swearing to a minimum.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky, it is a fair question. Is it okay to call people here names or not? Because I could have swore that was a banable offense. I'm not even arguing whether or not Cail should have been banned. I am talking about current behavior. I just want to know the rules here.

Hashi, care to weigh in?
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Here's the issue Fist. Sky's called plenty of people names. Vraith, in his quotes of my posts, has manipulated my username with the intent of being insulting. Wayfriend's signature calls this website a haven for white supremacists. All those people share common beliefs, and none of them have faced any consequences.

Whether or not people want to admit it, there's an obvious double standard. Based on my conversation with Cail, he certainly saw it and - rightly or wrongly - felt that as long as their behavior went unchecked, he felt no need to reign things in.
I'll have to take your word for those particular people sharing common beliefs. I honestly have no mind for politics, and don't have any idea what those shared beliefs are. If you're right, it could be there is a double-standard at work here.

OTOH, it could be that Cail was on a level all his own. I don't know what Sky calls people, or how Vraith has manipulated your username. But "Fuck you", "Bullshit you lying third-worlder", "Go fuck a sheep", and similar things; repeated and repeated for a few months; after years of being, perhaps, not as bad as that, but definitely worse than anyone else; then beginning to ignore the warning about being banned not long after the warning was given... I saw him say that he's apologized every time. I'll bet he missed one or two, but the point is that he shouldn't have apologized every time; he should have stopped doing it. I mean, come on, there's no conspiracy needed. You're not singling someone out if everyone is standing on the ground, and one guy is standing on the crowd's shoulders.

I argued against banning him for a long time. Personally, I simply don't read posts of people whose posts have an overwhelmingly negative effect on me. It actually takes less time and effort to NOT read them than to read them. But I said "personally". We want the Watch to be a fairly friendly place. The Tank is certainly going to get a bit more heated than anywhere else. But shouldn't there be some standards? [Personally, I think there should be more. I don't think the cursing is particularly necessary. (Although sometimes it's the only way to say something. Anybody remember Judd Nelson in From the Hip? Laughing) But insults directed at the person? Shouldn't be a part of this place, imo.]

I also happen to agree with Cail on more issues than disagree.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Here's the issue Fist. Sky's called plenty of people names. Vraith, in his quotes of my posts, has manipulated my username with the intent of being insulting. Wayfriend's signature calls this website a haven for white supremacists. All those people share common beliefs, and none of them have faced any consequences.

Whether or not people want to admit it, there's an obvious double standard. Based on my conversation with Cail, he certainly saw it and - rightly or wrongly - felt that as long as their behavior went unchecked, he felt no need to reign things in.
I'll have to take your word for those particular people sharing common beliefs. I honestly have no mind for politics, and don't have any idea what those shared beliefs are. If you're right, it could be there is a double-standard at work here.

OTOH, it could be that Cail was on a level all his own. I don't know what Sky calls people, or how Vraith has manipulated your username. But "Fuck you", "Bullshit you lying third-worlder", "Go fuck a sheep", and similar things; repeated and repeated for a few months; after years of being, perhaps, not as bad as that, but definitely worse than anyone else; then beginning to ignore the warning about being banned not long after the warning was given... I saw him say that he's apologized every time. I'll bet he missed one or two, but the point is that he shouldn't have apologized every time; he should have stopped doing it. I mean, come on, there's no conspiracy needed. You're not singling someone out if everyone is standing on the ground, and one guy is standing on the crowd's shoulders.

I argued against banning him for a long time. Personally, I simply don't read posts of people whose posts have an overwhelmingly negative effect on me. It actually takes less time and effort to NOT read them than to read them. But I said "personally". We want the Watch to be a fairly friendly place. The Tank is certainly going to get a bit more heated than anywhere else. But shouldn't there be some standards? [Personally, I think there should be more. I don't think the cursing is particularly necessary. (Although sometimes it's the only way to say something. Anybody remember Judd Nelson in From the Hip? Laughing) But insults directed at the person? Shouldn't be a part of this place, imo.]

I also happen to agree with Cail on more issues than disagree.
For what it's worth, I believe him when he says he feels awful about the, "fuck a sheep" comment. And I also can see that he was not treated equally. Luci posted prior to his banning that she only came here to mock him. It's been a while since I've read the forum rules, but I'm nearly positive that's explicitly forbidden behavior. Has Luci been banned? Sky's repeatedly called Cail and others, "dicks". Has Sky been banned?

I take your point regarding everything else with one caveat. This is a political discussion forum. By its nature it's confrontational. Cail didn't offend anyone outside of this forum, right? It was simply his style in here, and I'd imagine it's the way he talks politics in person. One would think that in an adult political discussion we would allow all posters to post in their own voice. And as you say, ignore the voices we don't care for.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you'd been here when Syl was the mod, DonEx, you'd see how wrong you were. We had strict debate rules and he absolutely forbade ad hominem attacks -- from anybody. The Tank was still pretty wild, but nothing like it has been lately.
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