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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:

- You don't come in the Tank.


I would hope no one would come in the tank. I like to keep my water clean.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed.

Always glad to see a new member. Intrigued by one who joined today (and is four posts in, so you're not just commenting on this thread), but is well-enough read on the forum to be so forthright about what they're observing here.

Looking forward to hearing more of your input.

May you thrive here...and continue to contribute.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:
You guys sure do bicker a lot, don't you?


LOL it would seem so

The Tank aint dead, the Watch aint Dead .. it goes through upsurges and down surges always has .. I can remember many times days and weeks went by with little to no activity.

I am sure Av is all too familiar with that as hes held the place together for years.

If you dont want to have a crypt theres a rather simple solution ... post more ... engage more.

There is plenty I genuinely miss about the way things were .. and thats the truth .. but there is some things I dont miss in the slightest.

Ive always loved this place .. finding the Watch was a great boon after finishing the chrons. Finding Jays EZboard was the awesomest find ever. Jay and Aleana brought a GREAT vibe to the place .. it was much like the Land aamof. We interacted with that vibe.

Yes the Tanks been a bit slow. We all have lives to live outside of the Watch. So we get busy and come when we can.

Its a great place and so it SHOULD be .. ♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️

Oh and re the echo chamber comment .. the dominant politics of the Tank has no imv changed one iota. Its still largely a conservative membership .. and that is not a problem or even THE problem. Out of the regulars who post most ... identify 😉 with conservatism or Liberalism .. 🤷‍♀️ as for me my default setting is liberal more generally but am also arguably conservative re some specific issues.

Oh and definitely I enjoy spirited debate .. its how Im hardwired. Other shit not so much 😉
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is entirely possible to carry out strong debate, even on the most difficult of issues, without resorting to aggressive or insulting language. In fact to do so only ever evidences the weakness of the aggressor in debate and never advances his or her position over the other one iota. This central fact has at times been in notably short supply in the Tank, and makes it not a place where you can enjoy the cut and thrust of good quality argument - actually testing your own beliefs (often in my case in better times, to destruction) to expose their strengths and weaknesses. I think it's a good thing to try to involve yourself in the Watch outside of the Tank (time is always a factor here, I know) to perhaps present your non-political side to fellow Watchers, as well as your sharp-focused argumentative one. Cail had this side to him as well; we just didn't get to see it often enough. I wonder what his job was? He was a very clever guy!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail probably doesn't have a job after being harassed by Vox or something. He had all the wrong opinions.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail is a mortician I believe, or close to being one .. and I highly doubt lol 😂 that Vox would or could dispose him of that.

Clearly a hard working human committed to excellence in his field ... is my impression from comments he made. And actually a rather difficult at times vocation .. as navigating the pain of grieving clients inevitably is.

And he did not have ALL the wrong opinions .. I suspect that is a disingenuous statement anyway ... as his opinions often allied with yours Nano, Zs, Hashis, RRs, Obi Wans, and SBs and others. So what? They in fact were opinions shared by a great many Tankers. But again I suspect you did not mean that statement.

Opinions interestingly ... are not necessarily wrong or right .. they are at their core subjective assessments of an individual.. occasionally accompanied by evidence or other opinion in support of their individual view on a given issue.

Opinions can however be inaccurate 😉 or alternatively accurate 😉

Food for the thoughtful 😉
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes of course - I'd forgotten he was a mortician! I'm guessing that is different from being a mortuary assistant, but I had it on reliable information that being the latter (in a UK hospital at least) for any length of time inevitably fucks with your head. Guy I knew worked in the hospital portering service for many years and he told me that all of the mortuary attendants he knew changed over the course of their employment - became odd if you like. Not making any observation in respect of Cail here I promise, but if true I find it quite interesting. Wonder why that should be (though it would have to be something to do with spending all of your time surrounded by corpses I'd think).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
(though it would have to be something to do with spending all of your time surrounded by corpses I'd think).


I'm pretty sure he never took his work home with him Laughing (Ed Gein!)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

LOLS Lazy 😂

Its not a profession that would appeal to many I suspect. It would definitely be confronting at timed. Were the guys in the hospital you know Pete Coroners? Coz their job is a confluence of forensic science which demands a great deal .. of an individual AND dealing with corpses whose deaths leave them in various states, that can be hard to deal with.

Yeah I think it takes a special kind of human who can do that in perpetuity.

I know this is becoming quite morbid .. I was fascinated by post mortems. Though confronting af getting to the truly fascinating aspect... ie removing skull cap, pulling face down, cracking open rib cages can be absolutely confronting .. but after that incredibly interesting.?

But hard when children, violent deaths, fires, bodies waterlogged or partial decomposures etc.

A mortician would likely deal with some of that .. ie preparing bodies for burial.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No - I think that's the professional nuts and bolts stuff of the job Sky. That's not the stuff that's going to send you a little sideways in your head. It's the sitting (I'd think). The hours of spending time alone - especially at night - in the exclusive company of the dead. This is not what morticians do; this is the attendants work. The morticians and coroners come in, do their work and leave, and yes - the work takes its toll in terms of traumatising the practitioner......but what I'm referring to is different. It's the long-term effect of spending time, often alone, in the company of the dead. This, I think, is what my hospital porter friend was alluding to - an observation that was seconded recently by a customer in the shop who worked for the coroner's office in one of the London boroughs, which is why I bring it up. This fellow also had contact with the mortuary attendants in his area over a long period and confirmed that he had observed the same.

The curiously - and not in the slightestly morbid - fascinating aspect of post-mortem examination is something I'm entirely familiar with, though from the practice as carried out on animals within the veterinary environment and not with human subjects. I've assisted in thousands (I would guess) of them over the years and can absolutely corroborate the interest that seeing the inner workings of the recently departed laid bare holds. In our case, we mainly knew the animals we examined - and loved them as friends we had known over the years - but the moment they were dead they or we became different. Professional curiosity, the possibility to actually see, to discover the pathology you had been attempting to elucidate by test and examination in the consulting room, immediately took over. That one hour or less ago, you had been holding and comforting a friend you had known over the course of it's life, often from pup or kitten, foal or calf, was gone. Immediately you wanted to know. The animal you knew vanished as if by magic with no effort on your part, to be replaced by the thirst to know, to add to your understanding.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I don't really find the place either more or less active...it was already pretty slow at the time, and the pace does not appear to have changed appreciably.

I do however find it a hell of a lot less derogatory, which I both enjoy and appreciate. On the whole, I'm fine with how things turned out.

--A
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
For the record, I don't really find the place either more or less active...it was already pretty slow at the time, and the pace does not appear to have changed appreciably.
The Tank accounts for the majority of this site's traffic. It has more posts than any other forum. If you look at the statistics, the month-to-month drop off in new posts for March-April this year was larger than any other time period in the history of the Watch (42%), and the following month (May) was the rock-bottom lowest number of new posts ever. [All during a time when the author to whom this site is dedicated has released a new book!]

Coincidence?

No, that's what happens when you chase off 5 or so of the most prolific contributors.

Avatar wrote:
I do however find it a hell of a lot less derogatory, which I both enjoy and appreciate. On the whole, I'm fine with how things turned out.

--A
Yeah, sure. But it's freaking boring. The quality of posts has dropped significantly, imo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
The quality of posts has dropped significantly, imo.


If that is your opinion and you don't like the situation then perhaps you should do something about it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If something has to be derogatory in order not to be boring Z, then we have a problem. If high quality debate can be maintained, but in an environment of mutual respect and preparedness to give opposing standpoints their due consideration, then word of this will spread and input on the site will pick up. If it truly demands ignorant abuse and bullying to make it viable, then it deserves to die and the Watch return to it's true roots - as a fan site for Donaldson's works.

On the point of the Tank's drawing by far the biggest posting rate, this is true but a shame. My favourite times on the Watch have been by far in the Close and Loreserrat (sorry if that's spelt wrong) and if these places have fallen quiet then I'm as much to blame as anyone else. Those places were fun to be in, in a way that the Tank could never come close to.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
If something has to be derogatory in order not to be boring Z, then we have a problem.
But I didn't say that. You're setting up a false choice. Just because I noted that an absence of derogatory tone has occurred at the cost of interesting posts doesn't mean that I think a derogatory tone is a necessary requirement for interesting posts. What I actually think is that the most interesting, passionate, informed and intelligent posters have been chased away from the Tank because one of them happened to be derogatory and his friends/supporters were literally told, "This isn't America, your free speech doesn't apply here. If you don't like it, go somewhere else." So we did.

See, this is what's so frustrating. You're pretending to be civil and reasonable right now, but you know that you're putting words in my mouth, twisting my words, arguing against a strawman position that makes my actual position look silly. Now I'm suppose to pretend that this doesn't piss me off, so that we can have "civil" debate. Why? Why is that more fun? Pretending that we don't have the emotions that we actually have isn't my kind of fun. Being fake isn't my kind of fun. Being constrained by other people's values, being told how to express myself, being under the influence and power of people who want to control other people's speech, isn't my idea of fun. It's pretty much the exact opposite.

Being allowed to vent, to be real, to confrontational, to push back against bullshit, *is* my kind of fun. *If* that sometimes includes a derogatory tone, I don't think it's a problem. But that's entirely different from saying it's a necessary ingredient. I wasn't arguing for derogatory tones. Obviously, the point of my post was to poke fun at the idea that chasing away those who had a derogatory tone would suddenly bring back all those who claimed that Cail chased them away and make the Tank a thriving place.

Freedom is necessary for fun. And with freedom, you have to take the good with the bad.

Peter wrote:
If high quality debate can be maintained, but in an environment of mutual respect and preparedness to give opposing standpoints their due consideration, then word of this will spread and input on the site will pick up.
But see, I don't respect everyone here. I think some people put in the bare minimum effort (cut and paste every damn post), and some are dumb as a rock. I think some small minded people want to limit what others, who are vastly more intelligent, have to say. I can't respect people like that. So this "mutual respect" is bullshit pretense. Which isn't fun.

Quote:
If it truly demands ignorant abuse and bullying to make it viable, then it deserves to die and the Watch return to it's true roots - as a fan site for Donaldson's works.
Ah, yes, Donaldson's works . . . which include a story about a leper who taught us all that we can't--nor shouldn't--get rid of our dark/destructive side, but instead should embrace it as a real, human part of ourselves, control it so that it doesn't spiral out into desecration, and allow it to both humble us (so we can forgive others of their dark sides and not be "holier than thou") as well as let it inform us, to see the good even in our dark sides, because without destruction there can be no creation. Without chaos there is only stagnation. And that's what the Tank is now. Stagnation and inauthentic control. It's like none of you learned anything from the author for whom this is supposed to be a fan site. You tried to kick out Lord Foul, rather than internalize him, forgive him, learn from him, and admit that he's part of you, too. And he adds value. [Note: I'm not saying Cail is Lord Foul; it's a metaphor.]

Peter wrote:
On the point of the Tank's drawing by far the biggest posting rate, this is true but a shame. My favourite times on the Watch have been by far in the Close and Loreserrat (sorry if that's spelt wrong) and if these places have fallen quiet then I'm as much to blame as anyone else. Those places were fun to be in, in a way that the Tank could never come close to.
That's you imposing your values on something that others view differently. It's not a "shame" at all that politics draw the most posts. Politics is one of the most important things we can discuss. Personally, I think it's a shame that Mallorys has so many posts. Such a freaking waste of time. It's a point of pride for me that I haven't bumped up my post count wasting my life in that place. My (relatively) large post count has come almost entirely from thoughtful, intelligent, interesting, insightful posts. I've poured my heart and soul into this site. And so did Cail. I'd trade his acerbic tone for a million "I agree!" and "Interesting point!" inane posts from others.

This forum is about politics. It blows my mind that people expect it not to be contentious. We spent 2 years with the other side accusing our President of Russian collusion without a shred of evidence, calling him racist, idiot, tyrant, etc., but we're supposed to pretend that politics is civil here? It's not. That's a denial of reality. "Civility" is just a code word for controlling the speech of people you don't like or don't agree with. No one stops you from being civil and refraining from a derogatory tone. If that's important to you, you have 100% power over your own words. But this tendency for some to want to go beyond their own words and exert power over others is what bugs me so much.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra understands my approach to The Tank. I don't limit speech here because if I limit any speech then I have to start limiting *all* speech. Those limitations would, by their very nature, be arbitrary and subjective and this would result in me treating people inequitably.

An online forum is a mirror of real life and real life is sometimes down-and-dirty as well as "in your face". Those who cannot deal with it here, where they have the layer of protection that the anonymity of the Internet provides, then they cannot possibly hope to deal with similar situations in the offline world. There are no "safe zones" and the world is not a giant kindergarten classroom--some people are simply assholes and it is incumbent upon each person to figure out how to handle them.

It's just politics, folks, with some social issues thrown in here and there. The "other side", the people with whom you disagree, are not "evil" unless they are advocating something like "slavery is not that bad" or "children need to work in factories again". You won't find anything like that here because this is not the dark web.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried to bring back some confrontational element to the Tank with Cail's absence but it seems I have failed.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
I've tried to bring back some confrontational element to the Tank with Cail's absence but it seems I have failed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't posted on this message board since March. I don't like being told to shut up or get out. It rubs me the wrong way. That's exactly the kind of talk that will get my "redneck" to brighten real fast.

Z has brought up something that I have also noticed. There were a number of posts that said that the reason people no longer came to the "Tank" was because of Cail and they supported his being banned. Yet here we are months later and those same "posters", and I use that term loosely, disappeared within a few weeks. Those that were left were those that were already posting and debating before all this occurred. But worse as Z has said, so many of us decided to just stop posting here. But rather than admit the mistake made, you double down and put your blinders on. You don't want to admit that you did something that has had a true negative impact on the Tank. Just like Col Jessup said on a Few Good Men.
Quote:
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall -- you need me on that wall.
In this case, you need someone to be the foil that engages the conversation. Cail was the foil on so many conversations here and what you really lack here and now is that foil. Possibly that foil would offend your sensibilities. But it would drive conversation and debate.

So what really happened here? A big ol' over-reaction of a full banning of one of the most prolific posters. A life ban. A life ban of someone without even speaking to the actual mod of the Tank. A ban without anyone even lodging an actual complaint to the moderator. Really? That's like skipping past the Judge and Jury and giving the death penalty for disorderly conduct. Everyone remember Andy Griffith show? It would be like making Otis leave town because they were tired of him locking himself up drunk. Frankly that's a reaction that deep down isn't objective. Its personal. And at the end of the day, that is not how this should have been handled.

Then there was the again over-reaction reaction by some here, when a few of us had the audacity to challenge the timing of events and the nature of the punishment. "If you don't like what we did, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out". Another over-reaction. I've been posting here fairly regularly.. here meaning the Tank... for right at 15 years and that's how you handle those that post here?

So what did you trade for? You traded off some of your most prolific posters for what? Has it really been worth it? Looking at the post counts and new topics I would say your answer deep down should be, "no". Any other answer and you are being disingenuous. People come here to have their views challenged and to debate with others. Sometimes that debate is dynamic to the point of being harsh at times. But most of us understood the spirit of the debates and the forum being used.

So maybe you should look inside yourselves and see why "you' reacted the way you did. Look at the actual facts and see your own over-reaction. Take steps to fix it.
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We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
A life ban of someone without even speaking to the actual mod of the Tank.


If you recall, I had just lost that nice, cushy job only 3 days before so I was not on top of anything at that time.

Even now, I still miss that job every day. I am having a difficult time of looking at what I have; instead my mind keeps focusing only on what I have lost.

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