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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Zarathustra, no one complained to Hashi because it was POINTLESS to do so. Not only did he make it clear he would do nothing, he was OBVIOUSLY on Cail's side in ALL THNGS. He is Cail's crony. You KNOWINGLY TWIST the truth beyond redemption here if you use that as proof of Cail's harmlessness.

The ONLY people Hashi ever took action against as moderator were politically left. The VERY THING you claim to be offensive. But which you NEVER spoke up about. Which proves your reasons are EXCUSES of the moment.

You have no principals on display here. But everyone can see your giant troll ass in it's full glory.

WF, everything I said above were facts. I'm not sure why stating the truth pisses you off so much. Your rant is opinion, accusation, and Despite.

I don't condone Cail's rudeness, but I do support letting people make an ass of themselves if they want. You mentioned Cail's "harlmessness." I do not believe that words cause harm. As Peter notes above, joy is in the ears that hear. Is that bullshit, or not? Do we take Donaldson's words seriously on his fansite, or not? Foamfollower was able to laugh at Lord Foul, and we think it's heroic. I thought Cail was funny. People here have either lost their sense of humor, or their sense of heroism. Words can't hurt you unless you let them.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joy is in the ears that hear .. does NOT mean offensive rhetoric IS or SHOUKD be a joy. That is a laughable misconstruction if ever I heard one.

Wayfriend explained WHY people did not go to Hashi as the moderator here. And I can understand that as it is a valid reason NOT to from his perspective.

From anyones perspective.

You claim not to condone Cails rudeness but in NOT acting you did condone Cails rudeness .. we all did.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I condoned Cail's freedom of speech, not how he chose to exercise it. That's up to him.

If "joy is in the ears that hear" doesn't include offensive rhetoric, then the phrase is useless. What is the point if it only applies to nice things? I read it as saying that you are responsible for your own reaction to things you witness in the world--including Despite. Is Despite not offensive?

You can either have a hissy fit, or laugh. I thought that was the point of FF laughing at Foul.

I don't think we read the same books, lol.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly 🙄

Wayfriends point however still stands.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this wasn't simply a banning of suspect provenance. It was also a coup, that entailed the deliberate deception of the moderator and users of this forum afterwards.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think "joy is in the ears that hear" means exactly what it says. It means that you take value of some kind from everything that is iterated, be it directed against you or otherwise. You learn from it, you reflect on it, is it just criticism, what does it tell you about you - about the person who has spoken, what does it tell the world about the person doing the speaking (it didn't take me long in life to realise that when a person belittled another person in public, it was the belittler not the belittled that went down in the listeners estimation).

Joy is in the ears that hear is the coin we receive from being the lucky possessors of the liberty of free speech. It's how we win, even in the face of despite.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus Tullius Cicero wrote:
So this wasn't simply a banning of suspect provenance. It was also a coup, that entailed the deliberate deception of the moderator and users of this forum afterwards.

Thanks for clearing that up.


LOL what on earth are you talking about and how did it lead you to THAT conclusion?????

A coup?
Deception?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Zarathustra, no one complained to Hashi because it was POINTLESS to do so. Not only did he make it clear he would do nothing, he was OBVIOUSLY on Cail's side in ALL THNGS. He is Cail's crony. You KNOWINGLY TWIST the truth beyond redemption here if you use that as proof of Cail's harmlessness.

The ONLY people Hashi ever took action against as moderator were politically left. The VERY THING you claim to be offensive. But which you NEVER spoke up about. Which proves your reasons are EXCUSES of the moment.

You have no principals on display here. But everyone can see your giant troll ass in it's full glory.
Holy fucking crap... seriously??? I see certain posters' permanent paranoia and persecution complexes remain very much alive and kicking. How laughable, depressing and bizarre in equal measures.

First off, I fully acknowledge that Hashi is more than capable of speaking for himself. However, as incumbent Tank mod and in an effort not to extend conflict, he may choose not to respond to such ludicrous accusations.

But I damn well will.

The allegation of bias and blatant favouritism against the Tank Mod is utterly farcical. Hashi's clearly stated and avowed Tank mod remains and has always been that he will not censor posts - neither from a theme, content or tone point of view. All he asks is that people "own their own words". Needless to say, that's completely logically and ethically justifiable - and it's a totally even-handed approach that he applies to all. It could not be less biassed. It's called "supporting the rights of the individual - any individual - to freedom of speech and freedom of thought."

And yet you come steaming in here, WF, with your oh so long-sung accusations of prejudice, cronyism, bias and persecution? Plus ca change... and absolutely truly offensive. How irredeemably fucking insulting.

Newsflash WF... as ever, just because people don't and won't fall in step with your twisted world view does not mean that you're being persecuted. Dictionary definition of paranoia there - it has always been thus with you.

I also have to highlight the accidental irony in WF making it completely clear that this in his eyes at least is all politically motivated - despite the protestations of many of those lobbying for and/or supporting Cail's ban assuring everyone that oh no, no. Nothing politically motivated in their actions there at ALL. Well guess what? WF's post above just shot those claims down in flames, at least in part. To him - and those agreeing with him - it's PRECISELY all about a deliberate and pernicious anti-Left bias on the part of the current Tank mod and ongoing conspiracy with more Right-leaning posters.

And Sky?
Skyweir wrote:
Wayfriends point however still stands.
For fuck's sakes... seriously? You support a claim of overt and long-standing bias against Hashi?? You're throwing your weight behind THAT??? Rolling Eyes

So... WF tells us that nobody complained to Hashi about Cail's choice of tone and terminology "because it was pointless", because Hashi was "OBVIOUSLY on Cail's side in ALL THINGS. He is Cail's crony".

By clear implication therefore, those complaining then utterly and knowingly bypassed Hashi - because of his blant bias Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes - and so went further up the chain of command in an effort to get their agenda - whether personally or politically or ideologically driven - fulfilled.

All that evidences is the burning desire of some - if they have any objection for any reason as to how a group is minding its own business, interacting among itself and regulating itself - to keep climbing up the authority ladder until they find someone minded enough to take the action that they want and to remake a little bit of the world BY FORCE into their desired and ordained ideologically correct pattern.

How depressingly anti-individualist, how anti-personal liberty, how depressingly superstate, how depressingly federalist, how depressingly GroupThink - how depressingly and appallingly authoritarian.

Anyone thinking like this should be fucking ashamed of themselves. It sure looks like true totalitarian colours are starting to be more clearly shown and that a goodly chunk of why actions were lobbied for - by some at least behind the scenes and via the back door - is becoming more obvious.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No TF .. Wayfriends claim that going to Hashi was futile stands.

And no I am not supporting any wrongful claim against Hashi. I respect him as a Watcher and as a mod here in the Tank.

Hashi made his position absolutely clear re his posture of non intervention. Its not a fabrication .. its Hashis stated position.

As mod he was within his right to mod as he saw fit in the Tank. He believed that posters WILL self manage as they absolutely should. Most of us havent taken the path of self management.

I am not weighing in on the political bias issue. Though as an outsider to US politics, its not hard to observe individual biases.

As its perfectly NATURAL to have bias. I do, you do .. pretty much every individual living does. So that counters the relevance of political bias, political coups etc imo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that was a rather important clarification of your position then, Sky.

You seem to be saying that you fully agree that going to the Tank mod was futile, while simultaneously entirely disagreeing with WF's stated reasons as to why going to the Tank mod would be futile.

If this in fact what you intended, again I'd point out that stating CLEARLY what one thinks and agrees with - and what one doesn't - is just a tad important, if one doesn't want to give the wrong impression.

Nevertheless, given said clarification, would you then agree with the following statement of mine - EXCEPT for the bit I've now put in red italics? Do you think that it applies at least to some, given subsequent evidence?

TF wrote:
So... WF tells us that nobody complained to Hashi about Cail's choice of tone and terminology "because it was pointless", because Hashi was "OBVIOUSLY on Cail's side in ALL THINGS. He is Cail's crony".

By clear implication therefore, those complaining then utterly and knowingly bypassed Hashi - because of his blatant bias - and so went further up the chain of command in an effort to get their agenda - whether personally or politically or ideologically driven - fulfilled.

All that evidences is the burning desire of some - if they have any objection for any reason as to how a group is minding its own business, interacting among itself and regulating itself - to keep climbing up the authority ladder until they find someone minded enough to take the action that they want and to remake a little bit of the world BY FORCE into their desired and ordained ideologically correct pattern.

How depressingly anti-individualist, how anti-personal liberty, how depressingly superstate, how depressingly federalist, how depressingly GroupThink - how depressingly and appallingly authoritarian.

I'd be interested in having it highlighted where the logic in that is faulty...

At the very least, you surely concur that the allegations made of bias and deliberate cronyism against the Tank mod are both a) utterly offensive and b) utterly unjustifiable?

And if so, shouldn't Wayfriend now be censured for such a groundless and insulting personal attack? If not, why not? Admittedly (currently) it's a one-off (though I well remember his endlessly levelled screams of persecution and unfairness when I was here a few years back)...

...but to any standard, it's a whole shitload lot more personal than banal playground epithets of "tosser" or "gadfly". Could it be any more ad hominem?

(And yes of course I'm sure that Hashi doesn't give a rat's ass - but hey, let's make sure there are no double standards being applied here, in the light of the alleged justifications for Cail's ban, eh?).

Skyweir wrote:
As mod he was within his right to mod as he saw fit in the Tank. He believed that posters WILL self manage as they absolutely should.
And to close, I disagree with your summary above of Hashi's Tank policy - and why the past tense? Have I missed his resignation or something? (I wouldn't blame him either). Or is he no longer within his right to mod the Tank as he sees fit in this Brave New World?

Anyhow, my take is that he believes that posters should be allowed to post as they wish - there's no moral or ideological "should" about what they post or how they post it. The sole obligation is for posters themselves to take responsibility for and ownership of their words and actions, rather than having some arbitrary external framework imposed upon them.
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Last edited by TheFallen on Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem intent on nitpicking.

Hashi has said on many occasions that he is not intervening and that people are adults and capable of self moderation ... Hashi has made statements like this on a number of occasions. Its NOT a fabrication or a misconstruing of the facts.

I do not believe Wayfriend is speaking ill of Hashi .. he is stating that complaining to Hashi was ... from his perspective ... a futility and that to me is completely understandable.

As to the political bias issue .. I completely understand it also.

The majority membership in the Tank is conservative AND libertarian. It is what it is.

It is not unreasonable to consider oneself as a more liberal thinker ... outmanned.

The bias point is arguably an overstatement but to some it may have been relevant nevertheless. But none of that is relevant to Cail being banned.

It is only relevant to why some Watchers may have chosen not to go to the moderator of the Tank.

We can delete the word ... should ... and replace it with the word appropriate, if you prefer.

It IS appropriate for every individual to self manage.

And no ... the Watch has a set of standards ... and expectations of all its members who sign up to the Watch. In that set of expectations is the expectation that if you dont self moderate, there are consequences .. from warnings to banning.

So yes there is an external framework imposed on participating Watch members. Its the reason there ARE moderators AND an administration.

And you say words arent important .. how a linguist can think such a thing is dumbfounding to me. I argue that words are always important.

And yes we accept responsibility for our words and our actions in life ... its no different here. No?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
I do not believe Wayfriend is speaking ill of Hashi ..
Are you for real? In what world can allegations of cronyism and bias be considered as compliments? I'll write to Hallmark and tell them.

Are you honestly expecting anyone to believe that you think that WF's comments on Hashi are NOT a blatant ad hominem attack? Sorry, but if so, you're being disingenuous in the extreme.

As to the importance of words - of course their meanings are important. Of course the ability to use them to more closely define or express a concept, thought, opinion or emotion is paramount.

But they can just as easily be put to insignificant and banal use - eg "go fuck a sheep" is hardly going to win anyone the Nobel Prize for Deep Thought or Literature.

But kicking off about someone calling someone else a tosser or a gadfly, while simultaneously dismissing as trivial someone maintaining point blank that someone else in given authority simply did not act because of their rampant prejudice and cronyism is oh so obviously hypocrisy in spades. Which would you say represents the more weighty accusation? Tosser and gadfly? Or biassed hypocrite?

Or even by your own bizarre apparent standards. if - as you claim - "all words are important", why should WF's chosen words be viewed as less important?

They're the standards that you and others pushed so vehemently for - so one inevitably wonders why you and others aren't lobbying with equal effort for them to be applied even-handedly?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus lol 🤦‍♀️

... by implying Hashis intentions were politically motivated holds as little water as Nihilo implying Cails banning was part of a political coup.

Nevertheless that does not mean Wayfriend is wrong to have formed such a belief. And THAT is more concerning imv.

That was how Wayfriend interpreted the dynamic from HIS perspective and experience.

I cant nor am I attempting to justify Cails banning. I am not in a position to do that. Not because I believe banning Cail was wrong ... but because I wasnt here to witness the goings on in the Tank over the past decade.

Only Hashi can answer to whether or not he finds Wayfriends comments offended him. Youre assuming he will.

But if so it was a third party offence ... as Wayfriend was addressing Z. If Hashi is concerned with the accuracy of Wayfriends comments, I am confident HE is capable of challenging them or correcting them all by himself. No?

Insulting posters Cail did not agree with was Cails MO. He had it down pat. Turned out thats not actually acceptable here. Who knew? I didnt. I pretty much thought Cail would continue to be a dick in perpetuity. I was wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do make me laugh, Sky...

Skyweir wrote:
Nevertheless that does not mean Wayfriend is wrong to have formed such a belief. And THAT is more concerning imv.

That was how Wayfriend interpreted the dynamic from HIS perspective and experience.
On that basis, if it's okay for WF to form and express the belief that Hashi's a bias-ridden hypocrite, why was it not okay for Cail to form and express the belief that your good self is actually a tosser and a gadfly? That seemingly was how he interpreted the dynamic of your and his interaction from HIS perspective and experience...

Skyweir wrote:
But if so it was a third party offence ... as Wayfriend was addressing Z.
Aaaah, so if Cail had spent his time publicly telling everyone else that you were a tosser and a gadfly, rather than telling you directly, that would have been okay...

Skyweir wrote:
I pretty much thought Cail would continue to be a dick
I also note that it's apparently pretty much okay to refer to someone as a dick once they're incapable of responding...

Damn but this being a snowflake thing is way more complicated and multi-layered than I at first suspected. These apparently irresoluble ethical nuances are really tricky. Anyone got an Idiot's Guide on How To?

(HLT, you're gonna need a bigger bowl...)
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This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
I do not believe Wayfriend is speaking ill of Hashi ..
Are you for real? In what world can allegations of cronyism and bias be considered as compliments? I'll write to Hallmark and tell them.

Are you honestly expecting anyone to believe that you think that WF's comments on Hashi are NOT a blatant ad hominem attack? Sorry, but if so, you're being disingenuous in the extreme.

As to the importance of words - of course their meanings are important. Of course the ability to use them to more closely define or express a concept, thought, opinion or emotion is paramount.

But they can just as easily be put to insignificant and banal use - eg "go fuck a sheep" is hardly going to win anyone the Nobel Prize for Deep Thought or Literature.

But kicking off about someone calling someone else a tosser or a gadfly, while simultaneously dismissing as trivial someone maintaining point blank that someone else in given authority simply did not act because of their rampant prejudice and cronyism is oh so obviously hypocrisy in spades. Which would you say represents the more weighty accusation? Tosser and gadfly? Or biassed hypocrite?

Or even by your own bizarre apparent standards. if - as you claim - "all words are important", why should WF's chosen words be viewed as less important?

They're the standards that you and others pushed so vehemently for - so one inevitably wonders why you and others aren't lobbying with equal effort for them to be applied even-handedly?


The hyperbolic sloth and insipid double speak you are encountering, and your choice to interact with it, are 2/3 of the proximate cause of Cail's banning. The other 1/3 was his choice to answer it with ridicule and opprobrium where appropriate, which in context can only be seen as entirely justified, if not exactly polite.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus Tullius Cicero wrote:
The hyperbolic sloth and insipid double speak you are encountering, and your choice to interact with it, are 2/3 of the proximate cause of Cail's banning. The other 1/3 was his choice to answer it with ridicule and opprobrium where appropriate, which in context can only be seen as entirely justified, if not exactly polite.
If so, that's me 66.6% of a way to a ban then. I suppose I'll add the remaining third when my patience finally runs out.

The double standards and logical inconsistencies in play here are just so eye-poppingly obvious. Pointing them out is simply shooting fish in a barrel.

The sole remaining question of some very minor interest is... who is acting with the most sickening of hypocrisy in the full foreknowledge and understanding of this and who's just too dumb and/or blinkered to be able to see it for what it oh so clearly is?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that this thread was ready to die on its own outside of a disagreement between Z and Findail. And then WF brought some petroleum to the thread and dumped it on and struck match to it. So I up until this AM had not actually read what WF had to say. So posted below. I bolded a few parts.

Quote:
Zarathustra, no one complained to Hashi because it was POINTLESS to do so. Not only did he make it clear he would do nothing, he was OBVIOUSLY on Cail's side in ALL THNGS. He is Cail's crony. You KNOWINGLY TWIST the truth beyond redemption here if you use that as proof of Cail's harmlessness.

The ONLY people Hashi ever took action against as moderator were politically left. The VERY THING you claim to be offensive. But which you NEVER spoke up about. Which proves your reasons are EXCUSES of the moment.

You have no principals on display here. But everyone can see your giant troll ass in it's full glory.


So take a moment and objectively read that post. Now tell me how the above quote is somehow OK but being called a Gadfly, Tosser or being told that "you don't know what you are talking about" is somehow objectionable?

Last but not least. If perception is the rule here, then my perception of the true Troll here is not Z... Its the person with the gas-tank and match in hand, smugly watching the flames catch.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Only Hashi can answer to whether or not he finds Wayfriends comments offended him. Youre assuming he will.

But if so it was a third party offence ... as Wayfriend was addressing Z. If Hashi is concerned with the accuracy of Wayfriends comments, I am confident HE is capable of challenging them or correcting them all by himself. No?


Wayfriend does not have the ability to offend me. Like all other mature adults I choose whether or not I get offended at something.

Cail and I disagreed on quite a few things; therefore, I was never his sidekick, lacky, or any other synonym. That being said, Wayfriend--just like everyone else--is free to say what he wishes to say, even if what he is saying is somehow negative towards/about me. Unlike some people, I don't take things like that personally.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The truly yet bitterly amusing thing is that it's being claimed that WF's comments are "not speaking ill" of anyone.

I seriously don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Wayfriend does not have the ability to offend me. Like all other mature adults I choose whether or not I get offended at something.

Cail and I disagreed on quite a few things; therefore, I was never his sidekick, lacky, or any other synonym. That being said, Wayfriend--just like everyone else--is free to say what he wishes to say, even if what he is saying is somehow negative towards/about me. Unlike some people, I don't take things like that personally.
And I'd have expected this exact response from you, Hashi.

One point of order though - despite your Mod policy for the Tank (which is eminently sensible, logically defensible and utterly even-handed) - it is demonstrably not universally true that anyone is "free to say what he wishes to say, even if what he is saying is somehow negative towards/about..." ...someone.

Well, some people get banned for exercising that freedom (NB not by you), which hardly makes it freedom, if a consequence of it being exercised is its removal. Others don't, even though they exercise the alleged freedom in the exact same tone and manner.

It seems to all revolve around who's prepared to bypass you and protest.

Category A: Those who defend the right to free speech *do not* protest, so those not of like mind *do not* get banned if they take a personal pop (and frankly, as you point out, why do trite insults on a BB even have the power to offend?)

Category B: Those who want to control the debate, place restrictions on it and promote their own personally held ideology *do* protest, so those not of like mind *do* get banned if they take a personal pop.

Guess how that's going to evolve over time?

It'd be almost clever, if it wasn't so obvious. It's just a mirror of what's going on in wider society. Which doesn't make it any less pernicious in the least.
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Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.


Last edited by TheFallen on Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:31 pm; edited 4 times in total
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