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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus Tullius Cicero wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
I do not believe Wayfriend is speaking ill of Hashi ..
Are you for real? In what world can allegations of cronyism and bias be considered as compliments? I'll write to Hallmark and tell them.
. . .
They're the standards that you and others pushed so vehemently for - so one inevitably wonders why you and others aren't lobbying with equal effort for them to be applied even-handedly?


The hyperbolic sloth and insipid double speak you are encountering, and your choice to interact with it, are 2/3 of the proximate cause of Cail's banning. The other 1/3 was his choice to answer it with ridicule and opprobrium where appropriate, which in context can only be seen as entirely justified, if not exactly polite.
Exactly. It's another good reason for avoiding the Tank, after the exercise of ultimate forum power we've witnessed in Cail's banning. Give me a few beers and I wouldn't be able to stop myself from getting banned, either, given this bullshit. At some point insults become appropriate, and I think that Cail was simply truer than most.

It's clear that "offensive rhetoric" is only offensive if it comes from someone on the other side of the political aisle. If it comes from your team, you don't even hear it. (e.g. "It's just pub talk.") Joy doesn't have to be in the ears that hear, because party loyalty is the Ear Worm at the World's End. That song is stuck so far into our ears, Foul himself can sound like Mozart, if he leans the right way politically.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
It's clear that "offensive rhetoric" is only offensive if it comes from someone on the other side of the political aisle. If it comes from your team, you don't even hear it. (e.g. "It's just pub talk.") Joy doesn't have to be in the ears that hear, because party loyalty is the Ear Worm at the World's End. That song is stuck so far into our ears, Foul himself can sound like Mozart, if he leans the right way politically.
...except you don't see more Right-leaning/Libertarian-minded people here howling for bans, EVEN IF they find rhetoric from the other side offensive.

Nope, the use of censorship and snowflake outrage seems to be more or less exclusively the go-to remit of the Left.

They're freely prepared to unilaterally use measures aimed at excising WrongThink, despite those measures blatantly contravening principles which they publicly claim to hold high. Shutting down debate by any means available that's not running according to approved party lines is the order of the day.

Forget seeing the double standards. Just shut your eyes and stop thinking. It's so much less hassle within the Collective - independent thought is worrisome and resistance is futile indeed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a fair description, TF. While I admit my bias, i.e. that I didn't find Cail's insults to be as offensive as they were to those on the other side--or as offensive as those insults coming from the other side--I still wouldn't advocate censoring/banning those on the other side. This is an important distinction, and actually the heart of the debate. That's why it's not bickering. If both sides were hypocritically doing the same thing, leveling accusations of which they themselves were guilty, then maybe you could call it bickering and pat yourself on the back for being above it. But both sides aren't doing the same thing. We have a fundamental disagreement on how to treat speech acts, as well as their impact.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh ... so much tangential outrage ... its rather ironic, no?

You are assuming Cail was banned by me, you are assuming being called a tosser and a gadfly offends me, you are assuming that Cail was banned because I found his objectively offensive behaviour personally offensive. No?

Well I didnt ban Cail, I DID find his behaviour inappropriate AND unnecessary. No one NEEDS to treat other Watchers like shit just cos they wanna .. and just cause they feel they have a right to say and do wetf they want.

We are NOT supposed to be bickering children, right? On point FCPs was lol 😂 Oh the ironies abound 🙄

Cail wasnt banned because I was personally offended.Period.

Im not a child. Im a grown ass adult .. you give me shit .. youll god damn get it right back and in spades. I dont need anyone to save me from anyone.

And on that note Im done with defending others. I like to see NOT THE WORST in fellow posters. I will stick up for the new guy ... because hes a fucking new guy. FFS .. this is a fucking community board ... well congratulations Board we lost another newbie.

This isnt about you ... any one of you .. its not about me ... its not even solely about Cail aamof. Its about this community.

And all communities are comprised of members that are required to coexist for the wellbeing of the community.

Look around guys .. you each live in a community of your own, are there expectations of you within your communities? You bet your asses there are.


If you assert you can do wetf you want you are either seriously deluded or in absolute denial of reality.

The difference between your real life existence and the Watch is the oh so thin guise of anonymity. Some use that anonymity to create a brand new persona, some use it to say and do things they would never contemplate in the real world.

The reality of the Watch is that each member is a real person, cut from similar cloth, wanting similar things in the real world.

Im not Skyweir in the real world .. Im edit: redacted so you do not doxx yourself. I was born in Selkirk, Scotland. Im an immigrant to Australia my new home. I worked my entire working life with humans of all shades, shapes and sizes.

I am acquainted with dicks 😉 Ive worked with dicks aamof ... I know how to recognise a dick from a mile off ... My first ever partner used to tell me EVERY SINGLE DAY how much he hated women and how theyve no place in the job. He regrettably was also incredibly inept and a literal liability to us both.

After a year with him AND he was a first class dick and wife and child abuser as it turned out .. he was removed from circulation for a raft of reasons.

Ive worked in male dominated work places for more than 35 years. I can hold my own in the real world ... and I can damn well hold my own here.

So to take a line from RR, I have my big girl pants ... in fact I was born with my big girl pants on .. I am not about to be shaken by this crazy futile romp. Its quite frankly beneath the yous .. I thought you were. Pretty sure no one is getting anything out of this shit show. And Im about done with it all. +JMJ+ 🙄 Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
It's clear that "offensive rhetoric" is only offensive if it comes from someone on the other side of the political aisle. If it comes from your team, you don't even hear it. (e.g. "It's just pub talk.") Joy doesn't have to be in the ears that hear, because party loyalty is the Ear Worm at the World's End. That song is stuck so far into our ears, Foul himself can sound like Mozart, if he leans the right way politically.
...except you don't see more Right-leaning/Libertarian-minded people here howling for bans, EVEN IF they find rhetoric from the other side offensive.

Nope, the use of censorship and snowflake outrage seems to be more or less exclusively the go-to remit of the Left.

They're freely prepared to unilaterally use measures aimed at excising WrongThink, despite those measures blatantly contravening principles which they publicly claim to hold high. Shutting down debate by any means available that's not running according to approved party lines is the order of the day.

Forget seeing the double standards. Just shut your eyes and stop thinking. It's so much less hassle within the Collective - independent thought is worrisome and resistance is futile indeed.


Oh really? Are you sure about that?

Claiming political bias is fundamentally flawed no? Did you forget that Cail himself lobbied to have Wayfriend banned, Esmer banned .. and succeeded?

Howling loudly for their banning 😉 Double standards? Hypocrisy much 🤷‍♀️ Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir, for the record

Skyweir wrote:
Well I didnt ban Cail...
No I am not assuming that Cail was banned by you.

Skyweir wrote:
I DID find his behaviour inappropriate AND unnecessary....
Yes you did find Cail's treatment of yourself offensive - which is why you complained behind the scenes about it to others - but not to the current Tank Mod that sets the rules for this place, because that would have been futile.

Skyweir wrote:
Cail wasnt banned because I was personally offended.Period.
In my estimation, that's at best a half-truth. No you had no power in and of yourself to ban him. Yes you were rightly or wrongly personally offended (or tired or whatever adjective you care to choose). Yes you bypassed the Mod to complain elsewhere. Yes your actions therefore had at least some causative part to play in Cail's being banned.

Skyweir wrote:
I dont need anyone to save me from anyone.
If you don't need anyone to save you - a mantra I support entirely btw - I trust that you lobbied fervently for Cail NOT to be banned, once you'd decided to complain further up the authority tree.

Skyweir wrote:
I will stick up for the new guy ... because hes a fucking new guy. FFS .. this is a fucking community board ... well congratulations Board we lost another newbie.
If we have lost FCP as a a poster, it's out of his own choice. Which is on balance a shame, because, looking solely at the content (rather than the tone) of posts he made elsewhere he could well have had something interesting to say.

HOWEVER, the dude hurtled in here and played the blatant agent provocateur/smartass/arrogant dismissiveness card (and you must know that "peacocking" is not unusual behaviour on a BB for a certain type of newbie). And what he posted got challenged. Not aggressively, but robustly - which in my book was an eminently fair reaction to what he chose to post and the tone with which he posted. I see nothing wrong in that. If he chooses not to return, sure, potentially his and our loss - BUT his choice. Own your own words.

I'd refer you to SB's post above re a very early interaction of his in the Tank with LM and how it clued him into the Tank. I had the exact same extremely useful and educative experience. One of my earliest posts in the Tank was a completely unsupported claim presented as inalienable fact about big business using environmental concerns to drive up profits via flogging allegedly eco-friendly products at unnecessarily increased pricing to those of a more treehuggerish persuasion, leveraging the latter's feeling of guilt. I got quite rightly and robustly taken to task - by Finn, I seem to remember - for arrogantly presenting opinion as fact.

That was a very helpful interaction for me, because it quickly showed me that unlike too many other Internet forums, the Tank is not a place for flip and vainglorious comments. Say what you like - but be prepared to be challenged on what you've said and support it. Own your words. That's the uniqueness of the Tank - it requires some rigour and justification... and that stands to its eternal credit.

Skyweir wrote:
Its quite frankly beneath the yous .. I thought you were.
I'm sure that's your real opinion - but your disparagement is irrelevant in the extreme. Speaking for myself, I don't post for your or anyone else's approval or to conform to your or anyone else's image of me. I post because I have something that I believe worth saying that I want to say and that I am prepared to own, once said. No more, no less.

Skyweir wrote:
Claiming political bias is fundamentally flawed no?
Whut? I wouldn't maintain that for a second - everyone has a bias or affinity of some sort. I do maintain that, more significant than a right/left divide, there's an overlaying Libertarian/GroupThink divide split pretty much along the same party lines. And the core strategies of each side differ massively, when it comes to promoting debate or stifling it via imposed "standards of acceptability" - or worse, imposed censorship and regulation.

Skyweir wrote:
Did you forget that Cail himself lobbied to have Wayfriend banned, Esmer banned .. and succeeded?
I didn't forget because I wasn't aware of it in the first place. For starters, I think even you would take it as a given that WF has not been permanently banned. Moreover, my experience of WF in the Tank is that he invariably plays the paranoid persecution card - and that's fine, but he's required to own his claims and words and get called on it - just as we all are. If Cail lobbied for his permanent banning, I'd have seriously lobbied against it. But clearly such a permanent banning has not taken place.

As to Esmer, I can't comment, because I know next to nothing.

The only permanent banning I'd ever support is of someone who deliberately looks to disrupt debate - say if someone only ever repeatedly posted massive jpgs or in ancient Sanskrit or only ever repeatedly made posts where he copy n pasted pi to 100,000 decimal places (don't worry, Wos, you are different - fractionally - from the latter).

In my book, Sky, your stated position would be more tenable if it wasn't fraught with inconsistency. Your statement above that WF's stridently maintaining that Hashi is a biassed hypocrite was NOT insulting (seriously, lady???) was ridiculous in the extreme - entirely irrelevant of whether Hashi was offended or not.

And of course Hashi wasn't. Who of any maturity would be?
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This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I havent read the entirety of this .. I got a few paras in and blood is sufficiently heated ... 😡😡😡😡😡

SKYWEIR WAS DEFINITELY PISSED OFF ... ABSOLUTELY NO ARGUMENT
There is no argument with your preliminary claims. Yes I complained about Cail no doubt about that and Ive stated this openly and as fully as I can.

CAIL NOT BANNED FOR OFFENDING SKYWEIR
Cail was NOT banned because I complained to friends about a guy that mightily pissed me off A LOT.

He wasnt banned because I lobbied for Cail to be banned.

AV BANNED CAIL
Av said HE MADE HIS DECISION without talking to ANYONE.

Im very glad about that fact.

I did not know nor did I have ANY confidence that anyone would ever do anything to intervene in Cails ongoing dickery. At all .. ever.

Plus I cant imagine Av banning Cail as a service to me. Im not even close to Av. We dont chat nor are we friends outside of the Watch. I respect Av very much and he has been a rick here at the Watch 🤷‍♀️

Do you suppose Av lied about why he made HIS decision to ban Cail?

FRIENDS
I can talk to whoever I want about WETF I want AND about whoever pisses me off. Right? Human right? And a person that gets pissed off with unnecessary shit .... absolutely 100 percent right.

I will likely talk about how youre getting under my skin ... so fucking what? WGAF?

WHY WAS CAIL BANNED THEN?
Cail was apparently banned for a history of dickery .. if you have issues with that challenge the history. Better yet take it to Av .. and for the record I didnt COMPLAIN to Av about Cail.

I wrote to Av to ask him how I go about formally registering a complaint. I did not mention Cail .. did not use his name ... I did not provide Av with any details .. it was a general question.

And ..... HE did not get that email till after he had made HIS DECISION.

HISTORY
I know that Cail did not only treat me like shit. And so do you.

You and your allies have made a great many assumptions.

Assuming Cail was banned for offending me? Two assumptions right there. Yes Cails nasty dickery has its effect .. it served to piss me off .. it was inappropriate and unnecessary. I stand by that ... if you have to run someone down to make yourself seem superior you have already lost the plot.

PERSONAL OFFENDED
Cail never hurt my feelings like he had others ... because I never emotionally invested myself in him or his dickery. So where Cail could upset, effect, hurt others .. he had no power to do that to me. Why? Because I did not give him that power ... plain and simple. I did not divest my personal energy, trust etc to him. Why would I?

So no Cail could NOT hurt me .. piss me off yup .. very regularly.

However, I had thought he and I were moving beyond the dickery. So theres that. Not that I believe things would in actuality change dramatically nevertheless.

Im a realist.

POLITICAL BIAS
As to my political bias statement if you read it in context you would understand that claiming politics bias was WHY Cail was banned is fundamentally flawed. What proof? Why Cail? Why not all right wing Libertarians? Its a nonsensical unfounded argument.. aimed to agitate would be my guess.

BANNINGS
Yes ... you should do your homework before parroting off accusations ... I said Cail lobbied to have WF banned. He was unsuccessful. He lobbied to have Esmer banned and was successful. Both liberal minded posters .. targeted by the Libertarian Tanker.

The fact that THAT occurred puts pay to your claims .. all those who claim political bias and motivation to Cails banishment.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky, I'm not going to rehash another post-mortem, save to say that Av came to a decision BUT before he enacted it, he put it up for wider scrutiny and input. His words. That's the FULL story. And FWIW (correct answer: precisely nothing), I personally don't consider you as any sort of prime mover in what occurred.

Speaking of assumptions, you assume that I have "allies". Sorry, for my part, no co-ordination here. No "allies" - but apparently there are those of similar opinion who are similarly perturbed. Are you going to dismiss me and those apparently of like mind just as trite troublemakers with nothing better to do?

I'd agree that if someone has to run someone down for any reason, they've lost the plot, whether that first someone is me, you, Cail or anyone else. Now... remind me again why WF claiming - in the face of all evidence, since his laissez-faire policy as Tank Mod could not be more even-handed - that Hashi is a biassed hypocrite is in fact not "running someone down", not "speaking ill"? Rolling Eyes

I'm delighted that Cail never hurt your feelings. That shows a healthy approach to things. You're apparently aware that others have a less healthy approach. So be it.

I'm not primarily interested in the reasons why Cail was banned - which I myself happen to put down to a mix of reasons emanating from several different fronts (personal vendetta, ideological and just plain dumbass decision), but that's hardly important. I'm primarily interested in the sole fact that someone - who undeniably happened to both start and engage in debate - DID get permanently banned merely as a result of what they chose to say and how they chose to say it.

I'll take you at your word re WF and Esmer - I wasn't around for either alleged event you refer to. I'd be mildly interested in knowing where such lobbying took place - overtly or behind closed doors, I wonder?

Fact remains, in WF's case at least (I really have next to zero experience of Esmer), had I been around, I'd have argued with Cail against a ban until the cows came home. For all that WF has a years-long record of crying about unfair treatment, bias and injustice in the Tank - check the sig FFS - I'd still invariably defend his right to make such bizarre persecution complex-led claims.
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Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



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* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that IS the full story and YES weve done it to death.

As to Esmer and WF .. they would be able to talk about their case themselves.. perhaps there are others here that also recall those circumstances.

Cail also successfully lobbied for Nulls banning apparently.. if you scroll back through THIS THREAD .. I am sure these instances were covered off here too.

So no .. dont take my word .. you can find out for yourself.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever do I need to find out about?

In my book, calling for the banning (and especially the perma-banning) of someone... anyone... because of what they choose to say and how they choose to say it is never justifiable. Regardless of who's doing the lobbying or what their motives are for so doing. Period. To me, that's arrant censorship, regardless of the target for such. And my stance on this seems - to me at least - to be completely even-handed.

Now, speaking of doing one's best to avoid double standards... remind me again why WF claiming that the current Tank mod is a biassed hypocrite is in your own book and according to your own clearly professed standards NOT insulting? NOT "speaking ill"?

Help me out here... I'm a tad baffled.
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Censorship of any sort - let alone the savage irony in censoring those who argue that some look to control the agenda and debate through the very use of prejudicial censorship - demeans this place.



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* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You well know I cant answer for Wayfriend.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...except you chose to give your own opinion, just a page ago.
Wayfriend wrote:
...no one complained to Hashi because it was POINTLESS to do so. Not only did he make it clear he would do nothing, he was OBVIOUSLY on Cail's side in ALL THINGS. He is Cail's crony.

Skyweir wrote:
I do not believe Wayfriend is speaking ill of Hashi

Yes, you cannot speak for Wayfriend, but having chosen to state your belief re his comment, you presumably can provide a justification for such a belief of yours.

Especially since it seems to fly utterly in the face of the common courtesy you hold in such alleged high esteem and certainly berate others (when it suits?) for not adhering to...

...or do your own professed standards only get applied now and then? Dependent on who's posting, peut-etre?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You credit me with esteem I dont hold. I am of the perspective that courtesy is a baseline. A relatively low standard ..

WF didnt ask me to comment .. that was my bad.

I see that WF simply explained his perspective. I can understand the perspective. Whether you like it or not or agree with it or not .. is not relevant to HIS perspective.

WF is suggesting a reason Watchers may NOT have approached Hashi.

I believe that was his point so I chose to focus on that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..and yet you very specifically maintained more than that. You maintained that WF did not "speak ill" of Hashi, despite the former's blatant, insulting and (as you've previously agreed) unjustified accusation of bias and cronyism. Not "speaking ill"... your words, not mine.

Curious... and obviously a mystery beyond rational explanation.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, that's quite enough. I won't demand that the two of you let it go but I will state that it would be wise to let it go. Neither of you need this, I am certain.

Yes, I did edit that one post of yours, Skyweir--please do not doxx yourself because that can be dangerous.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
[...]

Yes, I did edit that one post of yours, Skyweir--please do not doxx yourself because that can be dangerous.


Hey, my real name is Joey Jo-Jo Junior Shabadoo, and I'll be damned if the whole world won't know it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Did you forget that Cail himself lobbied to have Wayfriend banned, Esmer banned .. and succeeded?
With all due respect, this is untrue. Neither Esmer nor Wayfriend were banned, either from The Tank or from The Watch, and Cail was never an admin, so he lacked the power to do so. I do know that both of them stopped posting in here, and as a participant, I believe that was a net positive. You weren't a participant here when Cail and the two of them were active here. If memory serves, Wayfriend, who I believe works in the IT field and presumably knows how to track someone down over the internet once threatened to go to Cail's house and do him harm. Cail, rightly so, was quite vocal about that blatant infraction of both the forum rules and the law, and asked Av to ban him. Av declined to do anything.

Esmer's posting style was combative and insulting to Cail and to everyone else who disagreed with him. While I'm unaware of anything that went on behind the scenes, there was never a push on the open forum to have Esmer banned.

Though I've not bothered to follow this forum much since Av has made it clear that free thinking and free speech isn't welcome here, my fellow posters have alerted me to this vicious retconning. I will once again inform everyone that Cail's readily available via Facebook, and has been more than forthcoming about what actually happened. What's being peddled here is a lie.

Av had something against Cail. Cail wasn't part of the in-crowd here. Certain posters here couldn't countenance his refusal to be part of the team. Like it or not, approve of him or not, he was a lightning rod here, and what passes for discussion and discourse now pales in comparison to what was done here before.

I will further note that you (Sky) seem to have no issue calling people "dicks", yet in the same breath post how awful Cail was to you. Your hypocrisy is boundless, and a perfect example of a person who's all too happy to dish it out, but completely unable to take it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Hashi .. I appreciate your edit.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
[...]

Yes, I did edit that one post of yours, Skyweir--please do not doxx yourself because that can be dangerous.


Hey, my real name is Joey Jo-Jo Junior Shabadoo, and I'll be damned if the whole world won't know it.


LOL

Yes it was probably stupid of me .. but I attempted to demonstrate that we are each real people, in the real world .. we are not some anonymous avatars.

There is no intelligent response to that rant Nihilo. Sounds like youve been on a steady diet of BS. Id suggest you weigh the credibility of those claims against reality.
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