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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Detroit Reply with quote

I have mentioned this city in a couple of other threads but now I am giving it its own thread. Detroit is a perfect example of a failed city and is currently the largest municipal bankruptcy filing in the history of the United States, possibly even the entire world.

Perform an Internet search for Detroit (here is the main Wikipedia page for the city) and what you will find are a handful of sites dedicated solely to photographic images of buildings, houses, and streets in a state of disrepair to the point where it looks like a not-yet-rebuilt warzone or a scene from any post-apocalyptic movie or video game like Mad Max, Book of Eli, Wasteland, or Fallout. Its population has declined with every Census since 1950--the 2010 Census showed that the population is less than 50% of what it was in 1950. It is the largest city whose official city limits have shrunk in recent years--the city was bulldozing abandoned blocks, zoning them out of the city, and letting nature regrow in that area. The roaming stray dogs in some area have reverted back into feral hunting packs. Half of the city's taxable properties did not pay any city taxes in 2011--they didn't have the money to pay. Anyway...the primary reasons for this decline include companies abandoning the city to move elsewhere, an overly-generous city pension fund, and (as a side-effect of the first cause) a shrinking population.

The current thing still going on in Detroit is the city shutting off the water to people who owed more than a certain amount for more than 90 days; I have the exact numbers in the In The News thread. The judge overseeing the bankruptcy case, Judge Steven Rhodes, stated ruled, in essence, that there is no enforceable right to water.

I understand that the city is facing dire financial circumstances and they need the money. I understand that in our modern system water is a utility for which payment must be made in order to continue to receive the service. That being said, cutting off the water to people is taking things a little too far--this is the sort of behavior which can cause people to riot. I don't mean protest, I mean riot--mobs of people with improvised weapons in the streets. Is that what the city leaders want? It cannot be--no rational person would want that.

On the other hand, one of the people being interviewed claims that there was no notice from the city that water could be shut off, only the regular notice on the bill that your service may be subject to being interrupted if payment is not made. erm....that is notice that your water could be shut off for non-payment! These people live there so I guess they don't bother watching the local news. The bankruptcy has a direct effect on their daily lives so shouldn't they be following the story? Yes, I know--many of them live in poverty (the poverty rate there is 40%) but certainly some compromise could be reached.

How do you get a $400 water bill, anyway? I guess if you don't pay for 4 or 5 months that could do it, depending upon what your average monthly bill might be. I haven't looked into the numbers, but I don't think that the Water Department's budgetary shortfalls are going to break the city or ruin the bankruptcy proceedings. The city should probably put all water shutoffs on hold and continue to eat that cost while the more important issues are handled. A lack of water for those people will mean an increase in the likelihood of disease as is often seen in various places in the Third World where there is no water infrastructure.

Or maybe it is time to admit that Detroit is Third World. It is certainly already the poster child for Urban Decline.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly it's a conspiracy to fail on purpose so that the government will bail out the city and thus get the ball rolling on the federalization of city budgets, tapping into the unbounded potential of fiat currency and MMT to get unlimited government services without having to pay for them locally.

On this view, it's clear that what is described as "failure" by conservatives is actually "success" to liberals, so that Detroit is doing exactly what it was designed to do! Shocked



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you did there. I am not disagreeing with your assessment, either.

The only conspiracy I see is the same one which plagues humans everywhere where we have set up a system by which some people are put in charge of other people--the conspiracy of stupidity, or at the very least the conspiracy of making short-sighted decisions (which amounts to the same thing). Back when city leaders were setting up the city's pension plan, then again later when they would go back to update it, they must have been taking numbers from the 1950s and 1960s then projecting those numbers into the future, as if growth and economic expansion would continue on its slow and steady pace. If we traveled back to 1960 and told an average citizen of Detroit what the city would be like in 1990 they would laugh at us and call us crazy. If we told them what it would be like in 2014 they would be wanting to commit us or increase our psychoactive medications.

I don't know when or where people got the idea that if they were loyal to an employer that the employer would be loyal to them or to its home city but that idea is totally false. People didn't realize that as they fought for increased pay or benefits--as they should if they are looking out for their own best interests--that at some point the company would pack up its toys and go somewhere else where the people aren't asking for as much money. Every company that moved away was a knife into Detroit's chest.

The lesson Detroit should be teaching people is not that liberal ideas or policies were not implemented correctly, or completely, or not widely enough and that is why they failed. Rather, the lesson Detroit teaches is that you (whether a person or a city) should not put all your eggs in one basket or that you shouldn't bet all your chips on one horse--everyone was banking on the corporations sticking around and being lucrative indefinitely.

There is a relatively new idea (not really but not many places are using it) which, if implemented more widely, could help reduce disasters like this in the future: employee ownership. The problems with the companies leaving Detroit and killing the city was because there was a disconnect between labor and management. If you give every employee, even the mail room clerk, shares in the company with every paycheck then every employee becomes management--now there is no more disconnect. What's that? A lot of the hourly workers want more money? Bring it up at a shareholder meeting, present the numbers about what will happen if the pay raises go into effect, and let the shareholders--employees--vote on it. If they understand that a pay raise may cut their overall earnings they probably wouldn't vote for it until economic times improve and the pay raise becomes possible.
I am not saying that employee ownership could have saved Detroit but the outcomes probably wouldn't have been as bad as they were.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

There is a relatively new idea (not really but not many places are using it) which, if implemented more widely, could help reduce disasters like this in the future: employee ownership.


I have mentioned this, in passing, in other places.
But the killers of these kinds of enterprises have almost all the advantages.
[they try to kill it before, during, and after insemination, and continue to war against it as long as it manages to live afterwards].
If the U.S., or any other country, was REALLY capitalist, and REALLY 'lifting all boats,' there'd be many more of these...in fact they'd be the dominant model, [probably] and the recent crashing and struggle pretty much COULDN't have happened if they were.
EDIT: that formatting is all fuck up...but the reason is NOT showing up in my view? Can't fix it? Everything looks right, but comes our wrong....

The [intentional] structure of finance intentionally murders as much of this as they can.
EDIT2...that's even WORSE? wtf?


mod edit: you accidentally left the "end color" formatting out of my quote, which was messing up your text. fixed now

I do not doubt that it is in the best interest of Big Corporate to end employee ownership whenever it can. Letting the unwashed heathens be their own bosses tends to end the practice of squeezing every iota of productivity out of your employees for the least amount possible. We can't have that now, can we?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
EDIT: that formatting is all fuck up...but the reason is NOT showing up in my view? Can't fix it? Everything looks right, but comes our wrong....
EDIT2...that's even WORSE? wtf?

I did warn you about those open brackets...

You missed a
Code:
[/color]


Guess you closed yours but you left Hashi's quoted tag open and so there are two colour tags, but only one closing tag. Close the tag in your Hashi quote like so:
Quote:
Vraith wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

There is a relatively new idea (not really but not many places are using it) which, if implemented more widely, could help reduce disasters like this in the future: employee ownership.


I have mentioned this, in passing, in other places.
But the killers of these kinds of enterprises have almost all the advantages.
[they try to kill it before, during, and after insemination, and continue to war against it as long as it manages to live afterwards].
If the U.S., or any other country, was REALLY capitalist, and REALLY 'lifting all boats,' there'd be many more of these...in fact they'd be the dominant model, [probably] and the recent crashing and struggle pretty much COULDN't have happened if they were.

EDIT: that formatting is all fuck up...but the reason is NOT showing up in my view? Can't fix it? Everything looks right, but comes our wrong....

The [intentional] structure of finance intentionally murders as much of this as they can.
EDIT2...that's even WORSE? wtf?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, which departing companies are you talking about?

Detroit's growth was due to the growth of the American auto industry. The major US car manufacturers are still headquartered there. What killed the industry was not union demands -- it was the automakers themselves not understanding the impact of Japanese imports on their business. Honda and Toyota simply made better cars, and consumers started buying them.

I mean, I guess you could blame it on the unions if you want to. But the failure of Detroit falls squarely on the decisions made by the owners and managers of the US auto industry. If they hadn't let the quality of their products slide, the Japanese couldn't have made the inroads into the US market that they did, and Detroit's economy wouldn't have collapsed.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fine, Ananda, if you think I'm stupid. But I checked the color quotes, and despite a possible miss on three tries, the fact is I didn't use ANY SIZE OR BOLD. ones at all, and they didn't show up while looking at the rest. If they had I would have taken them out.

[that's a joke...cuz the open bracket thing really was funny...the parts not about actual things...I don't think you think I'm stupid, though maybe you do. Nevertheless some of it is a real thing that happened and wasn't showing up in my boxes.]

Anyway, the Detroit problem is basically similar to many other cities.
The financial and industrial sectors, with a little help, FORCE lots of poor people to live together in small areas, then straight-jacket them, suck the money out of it, then blame them when they leave.
The city did NOT break cuz of pensions...and, to the extent that pensions ARE a burden, it is because the pension contributions were siphoned off to, misdirected to, stolen by, other groups, corps, orgs.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What other explanation is there for a population decrease which has been constantly happening for more than 60 years? People move away from an area primarily because they cannot find a job (marriage, divorce, and retirement being the other three main causes). Sure, the corporate headquarters are still there and employ many people but where are all the jobs that used to be there?

Please--if anyone has numbers or analyses which show some other reason why Detroit is in the process of dying (it is on life support right now) then present the evidence for everyone to consider. We haven't had a large city fail like this before so we need to study it so that other cities can try to avoid Detroit's fate.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:

Detroit's growth was due to the growth of the American auto industry. The major US car manufacturers are still headquartered there. What killed the industry was not union demands -- it was the automakers themselves not understanding the impact of Japanese imports on their business. Honda and Toyota simply made better cars, and consumers started buying them.
The two are not mutually exclusive. If employees have poor performance at a job but are difficult to fire because of Union rules, how will that affect product quality? I've heard stories of how people would want to buy American cars manufactured on specific days because those were the days of highest performance... that's a specific labor problem.

You'll also notice that Honda and Toyota do not have unions.

I think there's a strong argument that unions can create a workplace culture that fosters poor performance and inferior production.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually watched something about it very recently. Couldn't believe all the abandoned buildings. Doesn't happen in Africa...if you leave it empty, people will move in.

So, homes for the homeless or something? Seems like it's all just being wasted.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...............that's a specific labor problem.


Sounds more like a management problem to me! Many Japanese firms have very high staff engagement based upon the way they look after their workers, conversely there are US firms who have very poor engagement. Staff engagement is generally a problem made by management rather than the labour force. A good example is Continental Airlines, also Molson Coors and JC Penny are US firms who have charted and used staff engagement to turn their businesses around or improve profitability and reputation. Ali's point is well made.

To further illustrate that, we only have to remember then executives of the car firms rolling up with hands extended and private jets on standby at Dulles.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finn,

What is your position on "closed shops" and requiring Union membership as a condition of employment?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:
Guys, which departing companies are you talking about?


From Wikipedia's Decline of Detroit entry:

Quote:
Major companies like Packard, Hudson, and Studebaker, as well as hundreds of smaller companies, declined significantly or went out of business entirely. In the 1950s, the unemployment rate hovered near 10 percent.


aliantha wrote:
Detroit's growth was due to the growth of the American auto industry. The major US car manufacturers are still headquartered there. What killed the industry was not union demands -- it was the automakers themselves not understanding the impact of Japanese imports on their business. Honda and Toyota simply made better cars, and consumers started buying them.
Detroit's decline started well before Japanese imports made a significant impact. There were many factors--some of them tied to race--but the role of unions changed the structure of the city even back in the 1960s.

Quote:
The number and character of these new, suburban auto factories was a harbinger of future trends detrimental to the economic health of Detroit. [b]There was an interaction between factory decentralization and the nature of the industry's post-New Deal unionized labor force. Ford Motor was one of the first to undertake major decentralization, in reaction to labor developments. Ford's workers voted to join the UAW in 1941. This led Ford to be concerned about the vulnerability of its huge, flagship Rouge River plant to labor unrest. The workers at this plant were "among the industry's most well-organized, racially and ethnically diverse, and militant." A strike at this key plant could bring the company's manufacturing operations as a whole to a halt. Ford therefore decentralized operations from this plant, to soften union power (and to introduce new technologies in new plants, and expand to new markets). Ford often built up parallel production facilities, making the same products, so that the effect of a strike at any one facility would be lessened. The results for the River Rouge plant are striking. From its peak labor force of 90,000 around 1930, the number of workers there declined to 30,000 by 1960 and only about 6,000 by 1990. This decline was mainly due to automation.[10]


Check out the link above. The cause is a lot more complex than business decisions by auto execs, as you claim. For instance, there were also two catastrophic race riots in Detroit that caused whites and middle class blacks to flee to the suburbs, substantially altering the demographic distribution of the city, and collapsing the tax base. They also destroyed much of the city and many lives. This was in the 40s and 60s, which had lasting effects on the future of the city:

Quote:
The summer of 1967 saw five days of riots in Detroit.[18][19] Over the period of five days, forty-three people died, of whom 33 were black and 10 white. There were 467 injured: 182 civilians, 167 Detroit police officers, 83 Detroit firefighters, 17 National Guard troops, 16 State Police officers, and three U.S. Army soldiers.

2,509 stores were looted or burned, 388 families were rendered homeless or displaced, and 412 buildings were burned or damaged enough to be demolished. Dollar losses from arson and looting ranged from $40 million to $80 million.[20]


After the riots, thousands of small businesses closed permanently or relocated to safer neighborhoods, and the affected district lay in ruins for decades.[21]

Of the 1967 riots, politician Coleman Young, Detroit's first black mayor, wrote in 1994:


The heaviest casualty, however, was the city. Detroit's losses went a hell of a lot deeper than the immediate toll of lives and buildings. The riot put Detroit on the fast track to economic desolation, mugging the city and making off with incalculable value in jobs, earnings taxes, corporate taxes, retail dollars, sales taxes, mortgages, interest, property taxes, development dollars, investment dollars, tourism dollars, and plain damn money. The money was carried out in the pockets of the businesses and the white people who fled as fast as they could. The white exodus from Detroit had been prodigiously steady prior to the riot, totally twenty-two thousand in 1966, but afterwards it was frantic. In 1967, with less than half the year remaining after the summer explosion—the outward population migration reached sixty-seven thousand. In 1968 the figure hit eighty-thousand, followed by forty-six thousand in 1969.[19]

According to the economist Thomas Sowell:


Before the ghetto riot of 1967, Detroit's black population had the highest rate of home-ownership of any black urban population in the country, and their unemployment rate was just 3.4 percent. It was not despair that fueled the riot. It was the riot which marked the beginning of the decline of Detroit to its current state of despair. Detroit's population today is only half of what it once was, and its most productive people have been the ones who fled.[18]


1970s and 1980s[edit]

The 1970 census showed that whites still made up a majority of Detroit's population. However, by the 1980 census, whites had fled at such a large rate that the city had gone from 55 percent white to only 34 percent white in a decade. The decline was even more stark considering that when Detroit's population reached its all-time high in 1950, the city was 83 percent white.

Economist Walter E. Williams writes that the decline was sparked by race-based city policies which caused more affluent whites to leave the city (sometimes known as "White flight"), reducing the tax base, and leading to fewer employment opportunities and customers in the city.[22] The departure of middle class whites left blacks in control of a city suffering from an inadequate tax base, too few jobs, and swollen welfare rolls.[23] According to Chafets, "Among the nation’s major cities, Detroit was at or near the top of unemployment, poverty per capita, and infant mortality throughout the 1980s."[24]

Detroit became notorious for violent crime in the 1970s and 1980s. Dozens of violent black street gangs gained control of the city's large drug trade, which began with the heroin epidemic of the 1970s and grew into the larger crack cocaine epidemic of the 1980s and early 1990s. There were numerous major criminal gangs that were founded in Detroit and dominated the drug trade at various times; most were short-lived. They included The Errol Flynns (east side), Nasty Flynns (later the NF Bangers) and Black Killers and the drug consortiums of the 1980s such as Young Boys Inc., Pony Down, Best Friends, Black Mafia Family and the Chambers Brothers.[25] The Young Boys were innovative, opening franchises in other cities, using youth too young to be prosecuted, promoting brand names, and unleashing extreme brutality to frighten away rivals.[26]

Several times during the 1970s and 1980s Detroit was named the arson capital of America, and repeatedly the murder capital of America. Often Detroit was listed by FBI crime statistics as the "most dangerous city in America" during this time. Crime rates in Detroit peaked in 1991 at more than 2,700 violent crimes per 100,000 people.[27] Population decline left abandoned buildings that have become magnets for drugs, arson, and other crime. Such violent crimes has also pushed tourism away from the city, and several foreign countries even issued travel warnings for the city.[27]

Around Halloween, a traditional day for pranks in late October, Detroit youth went on a rampage called "Devil's Night" in the 1980s. A tradition of light-hearted minor vandalism, such as soaping windows, had emerged in the 1930s, but by the 1980s it had become, said Mayor Young, "a vision from hell."[28]

The arson primarily took place in the inner city, but surrounding suburbs were often affected as well. The crimes became increasingly destructive. Over 800 fires were set in the peak year 1984, overwhelming the city's fire department. Hundreds of vacant homes across the city were set ablaze. In later years, the arson continued, but the number of fires was reduced by razing thousands of abandoned houses that often were used to sell drugs—5000 in 1989–90 alone. Every year the city mobilizes "Angel's Night," with tens of thousands of volunteers patrolling areas at high risk.[29][30]


The decisions of Ford execs didn't cause Detroit to become the "arson and murder capital of America." They didn't cause people to set 800 fires a year.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot wrote:
Finn,

What is your position on "closed shops" and requiring Union membership as a condition of employment?


Against it. Trade Unions are historically a consequence of a misuse of power, in many places they then became the misusers of power. It would be nice to think that they have now outlived their usefulness, but when they disappear, the same exploitation of power re-appears. That's why better management practices which foster greater employee engagement prove to be more successful in employer/employee relations and in productivity..... its the old adage of catching more with honey than with vinegar.....
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

finn wrote:
SerScot wrote:
Finn,

What is your position on "closed shops" and requiring Union membership as a condition of employment?


Against it. Trade Unions are historically a consequence of a misuse of power, in many places they then became the misusers of power. It would be nice to think that they have now outlived their usefulness, but when they disappear, the same exploitation of power re-appears. That's why better management practices which foster greater employee engagement prove to be more successful in employer/employee relations and in productivity..... its the old adage of catching more with honey than with vinegar.....

I think unions are different place to place. Here, I think 60% of people are in unions and they provide a lot of benefits. The way I see it, it is the power of the individual workers who have no power one by one conglomerated to match the power of the money in order to create an equitable exchange of labour. I know in some places, the unions are corrupted and/or demonised, though. You are right in say that, without unions, the reasons they were created become obvious.

As a general question...

What is the cause for the breakdown of society in this major american city? And, is this city alone or just the one furthest down that path so far with others to follow?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finn,

I like Unions but strenuously disagree with "closed shops".
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
to flee to the suburbs, substantially altering the demographic distribution of the city

this, which happens for a wide variety of reasons, is a seriously under-rated, under-examined, and complex thing. People, many of them, look at things like Detroit, and say words about suburbs---but almost always as a casual toss-off, a secondary thing.
But I don't think it is. I think it is one of, if not the, most important.
People act like suburb birth/creation is primarily/only an effect of bad urban conditions. But I don't think that's so...at least it's too simplistic.
Most people don't LIKE real urban living, as a long-term/permanent situation, even if the urban area is totally awesome and blight-free.
They like the urban nearby, easy to get too, fun and/or exciting.
Nice to visit, don't want to live there.
This can be vibrant, dynamic, powerful...but it requires the opposite of what usually happens. Usually, the suburbs will start cutting themselves off as much as possible from necessary cooperations with the urban.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The threat of riots drove white tax payers out of the city to the suburbs, while the threat of strikes drove the auto industry to decentralize, moving out of the city to the suburbs.

Maybe people shouldn't use mob mentality to get what they want, biting the hands that feed them. When you chase out all the productive people who pay for all the free government stuff you want, and chase out the businesses which give a job to those who actually do want to work, this is the direct result. All these forces were set in motion long before the auto industry started feeling any effects from foreign auto makers.

One thing is certain: Detroit's current problems can't be blamed in any way on the leadership of a white or Republican majority. Detroit has the highest black majority of any major city in the U.S., at 83.% And given that 90% of blacks vote Democrat, this means that it's also has a vast liberal/Democrat majority.

So, they can have whatever government they want. What they can't do is force business and productive citizens to pay for it, given that productive people are highly mobile, and can just get the f*ck out when a city is in decline due to mob-mentality of people thinking that strikes and riots are good solutions to their problems.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ananda wrote:

As a general question...

What is the cause for the breakdown of society in this major american city? And, is this city alone or just the one furthest down that path so far with others to follow?
I would say that Detroit is the most significant (i.e. largest) example of the failure of a city. Other cities have failed, and kinda for the same reasons, but I don't know if any have been as big as Detroit.

I look at Detroit like a mining town. Successful while its one industry is booming and providing jobs when that industry hasn't been automated and/or unionized. Like a mining town, if that industry shrinks, moves, or disappears then the city will fail... it's purpose is gone.

Detroit, to my understanding, was a one trick pony with the auto-industry. So when events happened which affected the ability of the auto-industry to function in Detroit, it killed the city's economy. Those who could fled the sinking the ship and those who couldn't remained.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the '67 riots in Detroit. My father was born there, and we still had relatives in the area.

A *whole lot* of America experienced unrest of all sorts in the '60s. Watts went up in flames in '65. Downtown Chicago saw demonstrations at the Democratic National Convention in '68. Kent State was in '70.

And white flight was happening all over, too -- partly, or maybe even mostly, in response to the forced integration of the schools.

I'm not even sure I'd characterize Detroit's failure as unique -- although it's the biggest city to date. But Cleveland declared bankruptcy in '78. And Detroit's debt isn't the biggest in a bankruptcy filing; [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/18/detroit-isnt-alone-the-u-s-cities-that-have-gone-bankrupt-in-one-map/]that dubious honor goes to Stockton, California.[/link]

This whole business of "unions made the auto industry fail" is revisionist history. American tastes began to turn to smaller, better designed, more fuel-efficient cars in the '70s, and foreign carmakers provided them. Detroit -- by which I mean the managers and designers in the US auto industry -- had no interest in retooling. They just kept turning out land yachts until it was too late.

The unions were actually a huge *help* to Detroit and its suburbs -- as they were across what's known now as the Rust Belt. Unionization turned shit manufacturing jobs (in terms of working conditions) into bearable, well-paid positions. It created the region's middle class. Paid for houses and cars. Paid for college for a whole lot of kids.

Management hates unions because the unions make companies provide dignity and a decent life to their workers -- money that management would rather use to line its pockets and pay to shareholders. It's management that portrays the unions as greedy, but who gets to keep the money if it doesn't go to the workers?
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