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Lore under the Sunbane

 
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variol son
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:18 am    Post subject: Lore under the Sunbane Reply with quote

So where did it come from? Confused

Most lore is either taught by someone else, or stumbled upon, so how did the lore of the Sunbane come about?

The lore of the Clave, including the uses of the rukhs I would assume would have been taught. Everything we see them do, controlling minds, weilding rukh fire, controlling Coursers, travelling during the Sun of Fertility or Rain, all are used to help them in the Ravers goal of feeding the Banefire and strengthening the Sunbane.

The Sunstone on the other hand, is onviously just a corruption of Earthpower, and raising water and ussusimiel is just an extension of the Suns of Rain and Fertility.

So now we come to my main question. The eh-Brand. Where do they come from? Why doesn't the Lianar get consumed when it burns? Why can it heal?

Just a few random thoughts from my latest re-read. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend to say that the name itself ( both eh-Brand and Lianar ) seem to suggest some sort of connection to the old lillianrill and rhadamaerl; maybe the lore of the eh-Brands was a derivation of the old lore of the Wood- and stoneshapers, perhaps bastardized during the millennia, but still close enough as to resemble it in a few ways.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I understood it, the Sunbane was not a physical Bane like the Illearth Stone, it was a corruption of the Earthpower itself caused by Lord Foul, made possible by the absence of the Staff of Law.

So, the lore practiced by the people of the Land is just a corruption of what they practiced before. The blood-component was added to literally bleed the people dry, but also to corrupt them---murder becomes a way of life, and thus the Despiser continues his efforts to make everyone choose their own personal hell.

I think the more morbid aspects of Clave lore [mind control, Coursers] were taught directly or indirectly by the na-Mhoram/Raver. But most others, like using the Sunstone (orcrest) and Lianar (lomillialor) with the Sunbane came about more naturally, as the people of the Land sought some way to control their environment given the tools at hand. They were still tokens of power, but the method by which they are used had been perverted by the corruption of the Earthpower.

So, using blood to activate the lianar wand was just another way of summoning power, so the High wood was not consumed, since it was being powered by blood and Sunbane (corrupted Earthpower). An Eh-Brand was the Sunbane-perverted analog to the lillianrill lorewise, like Baradakas; instead of a test of truth or remote communication, the lianar wand provided the ability to foretell the next turning of the Sunbane. In the same way, the Graveler was the Sunbane-perverted analog to rhadhamaerl lorewise like Trell; instead of calling power from stone itself, the Graveler used Sunstone and blood for the benefit of his Stonedown.

This was Foul's way of taking something beautiful and corrupting it, then handing it back with an evil grin.

Speaking of which, I have a tangent question: has anyone ever compared/contrasted Coursers and Ranyhyn?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:
So, using blood to activate the lianar wand was just another way of summoning power, so the High wood was not consumed, since it was being powered by blood and Sunbane (corrupted Earthpower)


But when Nassic met TC and LA he carried a torch that burned by the power of the Sunbane, but the wood was still consumed. And where does the lianar come from? Is it just saved from the time before the Sunbane, or is it made from some sort of wood, such as Gilden?

I realised that my original post here was very unclear when I re-read it. Embarassed Sorry guys and girls.

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Last edited by variol son on Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I am Mhoram son of Variol, High Lord by the choice of the Council. I declare that from this day forth we will not devote ourselves to any Lore which precludes Peace. We will gain lore of our own-we will strive and quest and learn until we have found a lore in which the Oath of Peace and the preservation of the Land live together. Hear me, you people! We will serve Earthfriendship in a new way."

I think Mhoram and the other Lords learned a different kind of power, one that came from within. Like anything else, Foul corrupted a motive to work against its originators and for him.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In another topic--I'll try to find it and bump--I think we somehow came to the conclusion that there couldn't be a connection between Ranyhyn and Coursers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

variol son wrote:
But when Nassic met TC and LA he carried a torch that burned by the power of the Sunbane, but the wood was still consumed. And where does the lianar come from? Is it just saved from the time before the Sunbane, or is it made from some sort of wood, such as Gilden?
Nassic was a keeper of more obscure lore (and nearly forgotten hope), so he probably had enough knowhow to use blood to call flame from a piece of regular wood. Because of the non-magical property of the wood, though, it was consumed in the process.

I assume that Lianar and Sunstone were still rare products of the Land, made rarer still by the ravages of the Sunbane. Alternatively, they might have been extremely rare because they were handed down as powerful artifacts from a time before the Sunbane was so fierce. Either way, both were subject to the 'new rules' imposed by the Sunbane, being tokens of Earthpower. Under those new rules, blood was required to invoke power.

If you're talking specifically about the Lianar wand that Hollian used, I assume that it was handed down to her by her mentoring eh-Brand. I get the impression that she was not really opnely accepted by the people of the Land. From what we know of it, the Rede didn't seem to mention much about eh-Brands, since Sunder thought Hollian was a Sun-Sage, assumed to be bad mojo. Notice also that the Clave came specifically to claim Hollian for blood and confiscate her lianar wand...I think that the Rede left the eh-Brands (and lillianrill lore in general) out because it was maintained by the Clave under a Raver, a known hater of all wood and the lore that comes with it. [Rukhs and crozier were all made of iron, not wood or stone, to set them apart.]. It would be natural for a Raver [or any organization that a Raver runs] to try to stamp out any wood lore that he finds, out of natural hatred.

DW
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point DW, which lead me too my next question. How does one become an eh-Brand? Sunder mentions his prentice, but we learn nothing from anyone in the Land about any other eh-Brand. Do people learn the skill or are they born with it. When the are travelling from Revelstone to Andelain, Sunder and Hollian argue about their son, he saying that the child will be an eh-Brand and should have an eh-Brand name. eh-Brand name? Do the eh-Brand have a special language? Are you born an eh-Brand? What do you all think?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Foul's machinations were at the heart of everything dealing with the Sunbane. Lore included, passed down through the teachings of the Clave which evolved from the post 1st chrons. council. It is a simplistic answer to the first question but the sunbane lore comes from Lord Foul. IMHO.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that the Sunstone was actually Orcrest, the stonedowners had been taught to use it to coincide with the Sunbane. When Covenant used the Sunstone/Orcrest without blood, it played a big part in destroying the truth of the Rede in Sunder's eyes.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the Rede is essentially just a how-to/propaganda gathering of knowledge. (I always wondered if the Riders had a written copy somewhere, like a Sunbane-apt set of Wards) but I assume it is chiefly orally learned. Sunder and Hollian, as well as others (Stonemight WH's Graveler) mention aspects of lore and tidbits of info contained in the Rede. I'm plowing thru a reread of TWL right now, so this is all fresh on my mind.

I agree also that the more corrupt rites of the Clave were undoubtedly add-ons from Raver-knowledge, taking advantage of corrupt Law. No doubt the na-Mhoram had centuries to think up nasty stuff like grim and Coursers, for instance.

As far as Rider-prejudice against eh-Brands, I'm positive it is as Dukkha mentioned: Ravers HATE wood. Although, that begs the question of why would Sivit allow the Stonedown to keep the lianar?

It is interesting that Sunder and his contemporaries under the Sunbane-era had common knowledge of Spoiler:
the name and story of Diassomer Minanderain
. Even the Old Lords didn't seem to have that knowledge--ah, but who can say? SRD works in strange, and oft-frustrating, ways![/spoiler]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they also include stories of a-Jeroth, presumably this was Lord Foul, but where did that name come from, as it was clearly as forgotten as the seventh Word of Power at the time of the First Chrons...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

variol son wrote:
How does one become an eh-Brand?

My impression is that sunstones and lianar wands were remnants from better days before the Sunbane. They were treasured by the villiages, and kept as the property of the community.

In the case of Sunder, it appears that the periapts use was passed on from generation to generation, graveler to graveler. In the case of Hollian, it appears that the item was passed on, but not necessarilly used, until an adept was discovered.

I think the people of the Land are capable, to some degree, of learning how to use these things on their own. They demonstrated similar skills during the story - Sunder mastered the rukh and the coursers and even the krill, for example. Also, the gravelers of Stonemight Woodhelven learned how to use the Illearth Stone on their own. And Hollian certainly extended her skills as necessity arose. Etc. etc.

I think this all comes about because the Rede, for good or ill, teaches them much of the use of power, and once power like that is understood, the knowledge transfers. Also, both the sunstone and the wand seemed to be used with, rather than seperately from, the Sunbane. And also, as I said, some lore seems to be passed on within a villiage.

A good question is why did Foul allow the people to keep these things. But it's not hard to imagine how it would serve his plans.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the coercion employed by Riders has a forerunner in the days before the Sunbane. Elena attempted some form of Coercion upon Amok--albeit with no effect--to learn the name of the Seventh, if you recall.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I think the people of the Land are capable, to some degree, of learning how to use these things on their own. They demonstrated similar skills during the story - Sunder mastered the rukh and the coursers and even the krill, for example. Also, the gravelers of Stonemight Woodhelven learned how to use the Illearth Stone on their own. And Hollian certainly extended her skills as necessity arose. Etc. etc.

I think this all comes about because the Rede, for good or ill, teaches them much of the use of power, and once power like that is understood, the knowledge transfers.


A thought I will not pursue here (wrong forum!) is how this affects the view of power and knowledge adopted by the Haruchai in the Last Chronicles...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What samadhi Sheol had to do was corrupt the Council of Lords-cum-Clave, and corrupt the lore of the Land, gradually and in a way that seemed like a natural and healthy progression from what previously existed, so that nobody would realise what was really happening and who was responsible for it. In such an evolutionary process of corruption it is quite plausible that some aspects of the former rhadhamaerl and lillianrill could have persisted in some form.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Innominate Theurgist wrote:
Even the coercion employed by Riders has a forerunner in the days before the Sunbane. Elena attempted some form of Coercion upon Amok--albeit with no effect--to learn the name of the Seventh, if you recall.


I had forgotten about that.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall thinking that the rite of Soothtell was in many ways reminiscent, in structure if not in purpose, to the Lords' attempt to exorcise dukkha-waynhim of the Illearth-taint.

The rukh is obviously a cognate to a Lord's staff. Really, there are more similarities than one would first think. I believe the Rede to be, as I've said before, some bastardized, propagandized version of Kevin's Lore, adulterated with Raver-knowledge and altered somewhat so as to be effective 'under the Sunbane'. The power source (Earthpower) is corrupted, so the receivers and channelers had to change.

That all said, too bad no one could get to the EarthBlood and Command the Sunbane to just stop and fade.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Innominate Theurgist wrote:

The rukh is obviously a cognate to a Lord's staff. Really, there are more similarities than one would first think. I believe the Rede to be, as I've said before, some bastardized, propagandized version of Kevin's Lore, adulterated with Raver-knowledge and altered somewhat so as to be effective 'under the Sunbane'. The power source (Earthpower) is corrupted, so the receivers and channelers had to change.


I see what what you mean. But isn't it Mhoram's Lore that has been corrupted rather than Kevin's - the na-Mhoram?

Having recently read the Colossus chapter I was intrigued by the sound that Lal and Whane made, to Lord Foul's Bane. Not a direct ryhme, I would agree, but somewhat cerebral - or even subconciously by SRD.
The seeds of the Rede? (Foul's blood! - as Elena had uttered.)

After all, how can a Raver reside in Revelstone if not through a complete disregard for any residual Earthpower dormant in the Colossus.
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