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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8
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Lord Mhoram
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Raver was in the LFB, then it would be an important part of the book. Why would SRD make it so subtle that it takes us years after erading the book to figure it out? If its true??
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Vain
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what about this possibility?

Spoiler:
Lord Foul and TC are one and the same - well TC has Despite within him as part of the paradox. His being tuned into the Land generates uncontrollable bursts of malice - the Despite half - and being on the other side of the Mithil unleashes it - maybe distress unleashes it? Distress unleashed White Magic


Having a look at all the other reasons, it's almost as if we are expecting to blame temporary insanity for the rape. Is this a common plea in a legal case for rape?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO, THE IMPOTENCE THING IS A COMPLETE COP OUT. Otherwise we'd have little old men with walkers popping a Viagra and toddling along chasing pretty women down the street with ill intent. NO. Evil or Very Mad I will not buy it. I think that it's just the excuse that TC uses. It's Easier to admit to a medical problem than to say he has darkness and evil in his soul. He just lost control of it at that point in time. Most of the time he keeps it on a leash. Most people have a bit of darkness in them -- jealousy, anger, spite, whatever. And most manage to keep it locked up. It's when they lose control when bad things like murder and rape happen. Some people get more than their share, or don't try to control it. That's when you get people like the d.c. snipers. TC does that rape all by his little old self. Maybe he WAS nudged a bit by Foul or a Raver, but it's him that did it. And the impotence is NOT part of the equation.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful guest--I totally agree--TC's is a dream you can't kill, bend, fold or mutilate, dam Unbeliever, just had 2 go convince himself he could...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I never got about his attitude (well, there were a lot of things I never really got about his attitude) was that even if he was in a dream - even if the people didn't really exist -- well, they thought that they did. So don't they deserve consideration and respect just for that? I.E. treat them as if they are as real as they claim until proven otherwise? What would it have hurt?????????
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do not judge TC from such a haughty POV; it's not that easy

the answer is in his loyalty; someone says later on in the books )I won't tell who), that he is an extremely loyal man; despite all the humiliation, despair and excommunication, he is still loyal to the only world he can accept as real; he thinks it is all he has
for him the Land is not a blessing with all her beauty, health and magic: it is a cruel mockery; he spent long, painful months learning, that miracles _don't_ happen - how do you expect him believe now suddenly that they do?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dr.s fairly well ingrain in TC that his imagination can kill him--that belief in such a dream as the Land is leper's suicide. Yes, he really does precieve himself 2 b going mad during all of this...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But does he merely perceive himself as going mad or is he REALLY going mad? Real or dream, the rape of Lena seems to indicate that's there's some serious deep problems going on with him. The first chapters show you that he is troubled from his sickness and his wife leaving him, but he seems sane. When he rapes Lena he truly seems to be crazy and not in control at all of what he's doing. The rictus grin. The clenching muscles. The vomiting. The inability to hear Lena when all is done. He really does seem to be crazy here...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put Amanibhaven!

I was not suggesting, Guest, that his sudden nerve rejuvination (sp?) was excusing his actions! There is no excuse for what TC did. I was only trying to give another aspect of what we are discussing. As a matter of fact, we have had this same disucussion on other threads. You may want to take a look at the Thomas Covenant Discussions. However, let me re-phrase what I was getting at. Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly.

Covenant's impotence is not only sexual. It is social, emotional, as well as physical. Suddenly, TC comes to this land where he is COMPLETELY HEALED. SOMETHING THE EXPERTS HAVE TOLD HIM IS IMPOSSIBLE. And it is something that he has learned to live with. Where before his family and friends and community have shunned him and completely cut him off from life, suddenly the people of the Land worship him and see him as a savior. TC loses control. I don't think a raver nudged him into doing it! It was his own choice. (To be honest, I think a raver would be afraid of TC because NO ONE yet knows how much TC knows about the white gold magic. For all they know, TC could incinerate them!) And, let's not forget that rape is an act of domination and violence - not sex! It is about control - something that TC desperately needs! He needed to be back in control. Lena was the one to pay the price for that control. And even still, when TC comes to his senses and realizes with horror what he has done, the punishment that he craves for doing this heinous act, still eludes him. He is never really made to account for his deed.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right on caamora - couldn't have said it better!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The man has been through hell on our world. He makes it to a place that seems to be heaven, but he thinks that it can't possibly be true and that when it ends he what? Will forget all of his survival skills so to speak? And will die when he gets home from this? Eventually, in a nasty way if he forgets his survival skills? I'm kind of skeptical here. I think that he rapes Lena because there's some evil in him. And he can't deal that reality, either.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying there isn't some evil in all of us. TC surely has some evil in him, however, I don't think the rape of Lena was a purely evil act....despicable & unneccesary, but not purely evil. I think it was his way of asserting control over the ubelievable situation he found himself in and part of his 'evil twin' side shows itself in this action.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying there isn't some evil in all of us. TC surely has some evil in him--Earthblood

I dont entirely agree w/either of those statements. I dont really believe that anyone is born evil. It develops, it can result from upbringing, past experiences, or feeling of resentment towards a person or group of persons.

Is Thomas Covenant evil? I dont think so, he just feels angry towards all people because hes a leper. And he was just overwhelmed during the time of Lenas rape.

Earthy, I do agree w/you that the rape of Lena wasnt an evil act, I dont think it is.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, as well, that rape is all about control, and I also agree that TC rapes Lena in an attempt to regain control of the situation.

When it comes to what caused TC to commit the rape, I vote for "losing control" over "unleashing evil within himself". Although, given what he says at the end of WGW about the nature of himself and Foul.... I dunno. Maybe the real question is, are evil and Despite the same thing?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, sounds like the one thing that **everyone** can agree on is that what he did to Lena was wrong. There's all sort of stuff flying around as to reasons, maybe someone can do some sort of poll someday?
1. TC is completely overwhelmed by everything going on.
2. TC is influenced in some way by Lord Foul.
3. TC is influenced in some way by a Raver.
4. TC is influenced in some way by Lord Foul AND a Raver.
5. TC temporarily loses his sanity.
6. TC loses his sanity for perhaps a longer time period.
7. TC is partially evil.
8. TC is striking out to regain some control over SOMETHING, ANYTHING.
9. A combination of some or all of these reasons.
Did I get them all? Confused
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done, Duchess! Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right on time Duchess, great summary.

Another reason might be that he just needed an outlet for all the rage and frustration that was bubbling inside him. He needed to take it out on someone, and Lena unknowingly relased the cap. I think Guest already mentioned this.

One of the interesting ideas I read in that discussion thread:
Leprosy is viewed (especially in the religious thought) as a form of godly punishment. Covenant unconsciously needed to commit a crime in order to justify the punishment he recieved. Being innocent and being punished was too much of a contradiction.

As to Aliantha's second question:
Quote:
Why does Covenant have to rape Lena? In terms of the narrative, in terms of moving the book forward, why did SRD choose this particular abomination to visit unto poor Tom?



Here's what we came up with:

1. SRD uses the rape to set up the central dichotomy of the series: Is the Land real or not?
2. The rape is SRD's means to make Covenant feel guilty and this guilt eventually drives him to save the land.
3. It is an allegory of what LF does to the Land throughout the Chronicles: brutalizes the innocence and beauty
4. SRD needs to get Elena, daughter of Covenant born somehow
5. It aggravates TC's misery as what he suffers from most is his failure in his marriage
5. SRD is introducing a number of disturbing social issues

-pitch
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infulenced by LF and a Raver? When was he infulenced by a Raver?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just a theory, a possibility, as 2 when, I believe, I have already clearly stated when this influence may or may not have occured...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Mhoram, I am merely listing all of the suggestions people made as to the "why". I don't think that any one person who responded probably believes in all of them, but at least one person thought each was a possiblity. This might be one of the "unsolvable" issues, like the state of the Covenant marriage pre-leprosy, from the first two chapters. But, man oh man, is it fun to read everybody's ideas! Very Happy
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