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Haruchai women
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Durris
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Haruchai women Reply with quote

I understand that there are good reasons of narrative logic
why we never see a Haruchai woman. More than narrative
logic, really; they are present only in the mode of real absence,
which makes them more poignant.

At the same time, I admit to thinking that it's very like a male
fantasist to tell us only about the men--and in terms making
the generation-in, generation-out abandonment of their wives
seem understandable and honorable.

"Honey, I'm taking the Vow."
"You're WHAT?!!?!"

I wonder how the story might sound if Mrs. Tuvor or Mrs. Tull--or Mrs.
Cail--had told it?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah - it's like Norm's wife Vira (spelling?). Or Niles' wife Merris (again, spelling?). The characters are all the stronger for not ever being seen.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Haruchai women Reply with quote

Durris wrote:
"Honey, I'm taking the Vow."
"You're WHAT?!!?!"


Hysterical

Too funny Durris, too funny.

Very good points though. I always thought, if Bannor is like that, what the hell is his wife like? Shocked

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In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another angle to it: how bad Bannor's wife could be that he rather chose a two-thousand-years Vow? Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh heh heh. But looking at it even another way...

They served under the hottie-Lord Elena. And STILL they pined for the native women of their home.
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Durris
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Very good points though. I always thought, if Bannor is like that, what the hell is his wife like?


Wellll...do you suppose the story of Bannor and his Mrs. is the REAL
content behind Socrates vs. shrewish Xanthippe?
-------

*ahem* [squares shoulders, tightens sash of tan vellum around
short robe]

Bannor didn't PLAN the Vow. He just marched off to the War on Poverty,
Haruchai style.

"Dearest, you know I hate to leave you for a whole winter--but
when we've conquered Revelstone your babies will ALL have plenty
of food and warmth and will live to grow up. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."

The Vow has got to be one of the costliest things that ever happened
in the heat of the moment. That must have been SOME five-day feast
with the Council of Lords, to inspire it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... I wanted to meet these women as well... I mean they've got to be godnesses, Bannor or no other Bloodguard got over them...
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know that they are necessarilly physically attractive. Haruchai men never seem to respect anyone who can't beat the snot out of them. So I'm picturing some gorilla-like woman, half again as tall as the men, drool dripping from the corners of their mouths, steam rising from their nostrils, eyes glowing red, ....
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dude! No! *Barfs*
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"See, honey, I've got some good news for you... got some really nice job with them Lords over the Gap... dunno, some kind of a security job... I will try one or two seasons, see how they pay... shouldn't take too long..."
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

er... what?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An immigrants' job scam! Run away!!

____
OK, how about this: The conversation between Covenant and my
namesake in White Gold Wielder implies that service to
Revelstone in Durris' era is going to look very different than the
old Vow. So did he and whoever else helped guard the city bring
their wives and families this time? (Handwoven goatswool tapestries
all over the stone walls...curly-headed children chasing each other
all over the Keep like Rex kittens on a cat tree...the most advanced
School of Midwives and Apothecaries since the culture of the First
Chronicles...)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooops, that was me. If I were a Bloodguard I'd be
dishonorably discharged--or beaten up--by now.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slap
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

these people are weird... Screwy
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Durris
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*bump*

Wave Greetings, Haruchai!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Haruchai women Reply with quote

How did I miss this thread until now?? <img src=http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/album_see.php?id=111>


Durris wrote:
At the same time, I admit to thinking that it's very like a male fantasist to tell us only about the men--and in terms making
the generation-in, generation-out abandonment of their wives
seem understandable and honorable.
Yeah, I've thought about this too. And it's always seemed very strange to me that Roke had the male-only rule!

Durris wrote:
"Honey, I'm taking the Vow."
"You're WHAT?!!?!"

Very Happy Exactly!! (Reminds me of Sam Kinison talking about Jesus coming home after the resurrection, only to face Mrs. Jesus!) I wonder if the women had the same mindset as the men in such matters, similar to the Spartan mothers' saying you quoted once, telling their sons to come home with their shield, or on it.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:34 am    Post subject: Haruchai Women Reply with quote

LOL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
How did I miss this thread until now??


How, indeed? It was actually my first "new topic" post on the Watch...

Cool Where did you get that way cool emoticon you used?

Fist and Faith wrote:
And it's always seemed very strange to me that Roke had the male-only rule!


Well, if you've read Tehanu (the Fourth Book of Earthsea), Tenar (you'll remember her as the teenaged Priestess of the Tombs in The Tombs of Atuan--she's the viewpoint character of Tehanu, now forty- or fiftysomething and widowed) has a conversation with the witch Moss about that rule. Apparently all wizards of Roke placed themselves under a spell of chastity--that was one of the sacrifices by which they bargained for their powers. And the prevailing ontology of magic there held that it was specific to the masculine mind. (Remember the sayings on Gont, "Weak as woman's magic" and "Wicked as woman's magic"?)

Which reminds me: there's a misconception circulating on KW that the Bloodguard vowed celibacy. They actually didn't vow it directly; their vow was of perpetual service, which had celibacy as a consequence because there was none of their being left outside the Vow to belong to a partner.

Fist and Faith wrote:
(Reminds me of Sam Kinison talking about Jesus coming home after the resurrection, only to face Mrs. Jesus!)


LOL!! I haven't heard this; who is Sam Kinison?

Seriously, from within said tradition, there wasn't yet a Mrs. Jesus on Easter morning...only a fiancee. You know the kind of legend where a hero has to do impossible tasks to win the hand of his beloved--Beren and Luthien, among many others? Well, the Passion and the Resurrection were a courtship task to win the Church as a Bride. The wedding day hasn't arrived yet because She is not yet fully adult and responsible...

Of course, Jesus did have to face his mother after the resurrection, whose reaction may well have been similar to Kinison's description!

Yikes. I'll take off my "professional spiritual writer" hat now!

Fist and Faith wrote:
I wonder if the women had the same mindset as the men in such matters, similar to the Spartan mothers' saying you quoted once, telling their sons to come home with their shield, or on it.


Flinch! Sounds all too probable...although I imagine there might have been periodic outbreaks of Lysistrata-ism as well!!!

I'll want to discuss this again when I've read all of Gates of Fire, but it occurred to me from the quotes you posted about female courage: as moving and admirable as that description is, it is a view of female courage as defined by males. Accepting the losses of warfare only shows female courage if the women completely share the men's goals in making war. Might female courage also sometimes be found in saying "I do not accept," in challenging the warriors' goals and assumptions? Admittedly not among the Haruchai--or at least not in the received version of the mythos, because it's the men's story--but in general?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is Sam Kinneson??? Oh man are YOU out in the dark! Probably he's been one of the funniest comedians that had ever lived. His humor was sharp, biting and wholly sarcastic with just the perfect blend of irony.
He died too soon.

On topic: Brinn in The One Tree speaks of the Haruchai women thus:

Quote:
"Mayhap you know too little of us. The lives of our people upon the mountains are strict and costly, for peaks and snows are no gentle bourne. Therefore are we prolific in our seed, that we may endure from generation to generation. The bond joining man to woman is a fire in us, and deep. Did not Bannor speak to you of this? For those who became Blood-guard, the loss of sleep and death was a little thing, lightly borne. But the loss of wives- It was that which caused them to end their Vow when Corruption placed his hand upon them. Any man may fail or die. But how may one of the
Haruchai who has left his wife in the name of a chosen fidelity endure to know that even his fidelity may be riven from him? Better the Vow had never been uttered, no service given.


and even further:
Quote:
The limbs of our women are brown from sun and birth. But there is also a whiteness as acute as the ice which bleeds from the rock of mountains, and it burns as the purest snow burns in the most high tor, the most wind-flogged col. For that whiteness, we gave ourselves to the Dancers of the Sea."


In an attempt to make this thread a bit more serious... I think that the surrender of their wives the Bloodguard had sacrificed much. From these passages it seems that the Haruchai males valued their women highly. Not just because of the harshness of their home can cause one of them to die suddenly but the women must be as doughty as the men or perhaps even more-so. They are also implied as being beautiful and what the ideal of women many men hold them to be. For a Haruchai to take the Vow of the Bloodguard knowing he will never again see his wife (or another Haruchai female) again must've been very costly to them (internally always internally for those guys! ) indeed.
I can imagine the inner thoughts of the giants that were listening in on the description Brinn was explaining to Covenant. It would make them admire the little fellas all the more.
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