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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 20 & 21
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kaseryn
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:04 am    Post subject: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 20 & 21 Reply with quote

Right. So TC's made his bargain with the rearing Rhanyn, and everyone is treating him with renewed respect and hope. These chapters contains what is probably one of the most profound discussions in the series for me. At least, it had a resounding impact on me first time around.. and is always one of the more thought provoking/revealing passages. I refer of course to TC's discussion of hope and power with SHFF. Assuming you've all read the passage i wont repeat it all here.. but the bit that stumps TC is..

"How is Power judged?" Foamfollower asked with a seriousness Covenant hadn't expected.
"What?"
"I do not like the way in which you speak of lepers. Where is the value of strength if your enemy is stronger?"


He goes on to explain that it comes from that which is served. The faith of the Lords in the value of the Earthpower and the Land empowers them to their service. Service enables service etc. According to FF this is exemplified by the Oath of Peace. Now as i'm not sure if everyone doing this has already read the series i wont examine that particular point. But rereaders will be aware of complexities in this. Anyway, its a bit of a shock for TC. That people can find their strength in things other than control over others. And that someone so hale and stout as FF finds a meaning for his life in service. Humbling indeed, expecially in the light it casts on TC's own struggles with power and therefore, responsibility. TC finishes the passage telling FF that he doesnt have that luxury, being so powerful himself with wild magic. But the implications of this theme carry through the whole series.


Another thing which strikes me in this chapter, is the completeness of TC's own self judgement. His bargain with the Rhanyn and the Land, his compromise. He confirms his own unworth with this duplicity, so neccessary to his survival, in his own eyes, and reads the Rhanyns reaction as a moral judgement - their fear justified by his corruption. He doesn't allow that their fear might be a reaction just to the wild magic.. that it might not confirm his own damnation. Self convinced of his own corruption he reads his own judgement reflected in everything. The colouration of his outlook is almost complete. Its difficult to appreciate this when you get absorbed in TC's journey. Keeping track of his strategies, changes and perspective its easy to forget that you're reading from his point of view. But it does well to remember the view you're reading from, and to consider possibilities and interpretations other than those he accepts for himself.


Waking from Diamondraught aided slumber TC finds himself the centre of a huge tribute of flowers. Which mirrors the stains Morinmoss left on his robe [just how significant was that pattern supposed to be?]. Despite Morhams objections menethrall Lithe prostrates herself before him, offering whatever service she may. In keeping with the forbearance of his new promise TC manages a rare consideration.. and avoids any great pledge from her without embarrassing her. "There is hope for you yet", avows FF.. leading to the discussion mentioned above. Fresh with hope and having secured a place for Laura and Pietten, the Quest moves on towards Mount Thunder.

Passing throught a great storm of Drools making Morham shows TC the view of Andelain.. trying to guage or influence his intent. When they reach Treachers Gorge they see an endless army of Cavewights and Ur-viles issuing from its mouth.. and FF is taken by a frenzy. Throwing Bloodguard aside like dolls he grips High Lord Prothall and pins him against the rock when the High Lord asks him does he rave. It seemed to hang in the balance here.. that FF's pain and desperation for revenge might give the company away. And then, at Prothalls question, that his last self control and respect might be undone in his fury. First Mark Morins affirmation of faith breaks FF's fury like the most painful reminder of who he is, and how he had changed. He isn't restored.. but he ceases to diminish himself.

"A Raver? In one of the Seareach Giants? Impossible."

After sleeping, TC wakes realising that the drum sounds have stopped.. signalling the end of the army's exit.. the company rouses itself to enter the Catacombs. Lithe decides to accompany the quest further.. and FF stands guard over the Gorge, vowing to prevent them from being trapped inside. FF appears to have come to some realisation of himself, and warns the company against the dangers of Hate. In it he says, we become like that which we abhorr.


Sorry its a bit sketchy, as i said elsewhere i couldnt help myself and completed the series.. so have just refreshed these chapters.. hopefully theres a bit there for us to get out teeth into

Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also wonder about the significance of the marks on TC's robe.

It also seems to me that, as Mhoram shows TC the view of Andelain, that he is also testing TC to see if he is a friend or foe.

This is also the most we see of the Ramen until TPTP. Personally (and I speak only for myself), the Ramen annoy me! I see very little of the brotherhood of service that the rest of the people of the Land share with eachother. The Ramen seem to think of their service as better or superior in some way to everyone else's and it annoys me. Manethrall Lithe's attitude seems to show this quintessentially (I hope I used that word properly!). Anyway, even the Ranyhyn don't seem to have a problem with people riding them. Heck, they are the ones who choose! But the Ramen need to lighten up, IMHO! Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Wow the Read actually restarted...must go read, bye! Wink Cool (fantastic analysis kaseryn, btw...)

Last edited by danlo on Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kaseryn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Very Happy Yes, go read.. all of u! Shoo! Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Personally (and I speak only for myself)


LOL!!!

by the by .. am with you re: the Ramen thing!!

and I gotsta go read also .. Razz
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kaseryn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree btw. There was something a bit offensive in the Ramen's pride and judgement given all the things you've said. They had a pretty insular view of what was worthwhile and worthy of respect.. and the Rhanyn made their own choices. But hey.. in the end Lithe came good didn't she.. shamed by the Quests' example. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too found the Ramen a bit standoffish, as if their service to the Ranyhyn somehow made them better than others. However, I loved the part where Bannor took the Cords rope and snapped it like it was nothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that was a good scene, wasn't it? "It's a nice weapon...assuming you need one..." Crack!

Yeah, okay, I finished the book before Christmas, too. Gotta go reread.... (What a chore, huh? Laughing )
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always liked the interaction between Mhoram and Lithe and then Lithe and TC. It's the first glimpse we've had of the kind man who offered to share his home with a beggar in a long, long time.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed My copy of LFB is in my parents' room and they're sleeping. I'll post my quotes/input tomorrow, if I have time.

I'm glad the discussions are back! Smile

~Foamy~
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not like Foul, not 1 bit. Interesting passage, that I often overlook about Foul attempting 2 set up HL Kevin and killing all his friends instead! Also some very eerie 4shadowing when TC says:
Quote:
"but something"---"something is hurting him. He--he doesn't believe those omens. He thinks--Drool--or something--is going to prevent the Giants from going Home."
Mhoram's reply was so soft that Covenant was forced to read it on his crooked lips. "So do I."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Foamfollower studied him for a long moment, then asked carefully, "My friend, do you jest?"

Covenant met the Giant's gaze with a sardonic scowl. "Apparently not."

"I do not understand this mood."

"Don't worry about it." Covenant caught his chance to escape this conversation. "Let's get some food. I'm hungry."

To his relief, Foamfollower began laughing gently. "Ah, Thomas Covenant," he chuckled, "do you remember our river journey to Lord's Keep? Apparently there is something in my seriousness which makes you hungry."


Quote:
Covenant met Foamfollower's eyes under the scarred overhang of his forehead. The Giant watched him as if the hope of the Unhomed were a sinking ship, and Covenant ached with the sense of his own helplessness to save that hope. But then Foamfollower said as if he were coming to Covenant's rescue, "Be not concerned, my friend. This tale is yet too brief for any of us to guess its ending. As you say, I have spent too much time with hastening humans. My people would laugh greatly to see me - a Giant who has not patience enough for a long story. And the Lords contain much which may yet surprise Soulcrusher. Be of good heart. It may be that you and I have already shared our portion of the terrible purpose of these times."

Gruffly, Covenant said, "Giant, you talk too much." Foamfollower's capacity for gentleness surpassed him.


Quote:
Now we are Unhomed,
bereft of root and kith and kin.
From other mysteries of delight,
we set our sails to resail our track;
but the winds of life blew not the way we chose,
and the land beyond the Sea was lost.


-------------------

Yeah, I know, I promised to post "tomorrow" nearly a month ago. Things came up. Embarassed

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the midst of all that happens in these chapters there is one fact that always seems to tug at me and that fact is revisited in PTP. Covenant does not get the chance to say goodbye to Foamfollower. Sad
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOM C wrote:
In the midst of all that happens in these chapters there is one fact that always seems to tug at me and that fact is revisited in PTP. Covenant does not get the chance to say goodbye to Foamfollower. Sad


I feel the same way about TPTP and Mhoram. Covenant and Mhorma never interact all in the final of the 1st trilogy, which is a shame. Mhoram only knows of his esitence in the land when the Krill comes to life.

The exchanges beween the embittered TC and the great and peotic Mhoram are some of the best in the series. Of all the characters in the 1st chronicles, I missed Mhoram most in the 2nd.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First reader here. Hello:-)

Do these reads exist anywhere without spoilers?

These threads are very interesting, and I wished I had discovered their kind for ASOIAF earlier, and remembered such for WOT.

Anyway, I sensed this was goodbye to the Giant, but now I know that it is.

You see my point?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Allan, and Welcome to the Watch! (I hope you consider introducing yourself in the Summonsing forum. It's a good way to let us know who you are and what you're after... we take note of this stuff!)

The chapter dissections (as we call them) are intended to be spoiler-free - that is, they don't reveal what happens further into the book. However, errors do creep in. Especially in the older threads.

danlo and dlbpharmd are the moderators around here. They would appreciate a PM about any spoilers you encounter. They can put spoiler tags around them at least.

I am sorry about the ones you encountered here. It's exactly this kind of thing we strive to avoid. I don't think you'll encounter many more. However, if you want to, you can always PM me with your chapter number and I will scan the thread for you before you read it and let you know if it's okay.

As far as the particular spoiler here ... it's not a bad one. As Donaldson himself might say: it barely hints at the complexity of what he has in mind. By the time you find out for yourself, this thing here will barely register.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well first of all let me say I'm impressed about making the first post in a thread in 11 years, and receiving an answer within an hour!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allan wrote:
Well first of all let me say I'm impressed about making the first post in a thread in 11 years, and receiving an answer within an hour!

... and that says way too much about me. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Allan wrote:
Well first of all let me say I'm impressed about making the first post in a thread in 11 years, and receiving an answer within an hour!

... and that says way too much about me. Smile


It says you're a very good ambassador for the Watch, wayfriend, which you are!! Very Happy
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